Not By Works

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mailmandan said:
The effort to enter that rest is not about works salvation, but entering that rest through faith in Christ/believing the gospel. Their disobedience in Hebrews 4 was a manifestation of their unbelief. You think this is ALL about YOU.
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So you are saying having faith in Christ/ believing the gospel is an effort and that effort is not ours.

So to you God does everything including believing the gospel for us. Trying to legitimize a false doctrine is no joke, i can see.

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Effort by any stretch of imagination means work.
 
Smooth said:
You did not answer the question that means you must not feel secure in your salvation that is freely given to those who believe in Jesus Christ.
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Mmmh, if a person dies they can't do anything. They can not love and they also can not hate. They are judged according to what they did.
 
Noose said:
So you are saying having faith in Christ/ believing the gospel is an effort and that effort is not ours.

So to you God does everything including believing the gospel for us. Trying to legitimize a false doctrine is no joke, i can see.

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Effort by any stretch of imagination means work.
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There is no need for straw man arguments. The effort involved is in choosing to believe the gospel and not effort in trying to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and force yourself to keep believing or obtain or maintain salvation by works. Now although it is our responsibility to choose to believe the gospel and we will be held accountable for unbelief, saving faith in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us in (John 6:44) and enables us (John 6:65), we would NEVER come to believe the gospel all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose to believe the gospel or believe the gospel for us. We must choose, but the impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.
 
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mailmandan said:
Sharing in the ministry as a "nominal" Christian doesn't mean that Judas was saved. Since when does unbelieving/unclean devil/betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-70; 13:10-11) equate to saved? Judas was also referred to as the "son of perdition." (John 17:12) Does that sound like saved to you as well? Really? Even to the remaining 11 disciples Judas may have looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart and clearly stated, "he is a devil!" (John 6:70)
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Where did i claim Judas was saved?
I believe salvation is the end of a process and not the beginning as you do.
 
mailmandan said:
There is no need for straw man arguments. The effort involved is in choosing to believe the gospel and not effort in trying to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and force yourself to keep believing or obtain or maintain salvation by works. Now although it is our responsibility to choose to believe the gospel and we will be held accountable for unbelief, saving faith in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us in (John 6:44) and enables us (John 6:65), we would NEVER come to believe the gospel all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose to believe the gospel or believe the gospel for us. We must choose, but the impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.
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How can we have an effort in choosing when the bible clearly says we did not choose Him, he chose us?!

Heb 4:3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
......
9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, e just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

"Let us make every effort to choose the gospel" doesn't sound right at all.
 
Noose said:
Where did i claim Judas was saved?
I believe salvation is the end of a process and not the beginning as you do.
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You said: Judas fell from Grace and faith. That's my point. So it is true then that a person can have the knowledge in Christ (faith) and still fall from it. How is that not claiming Judas was saved? :unsure:

Salvation is obtained in the beginning by grace through faith. It's called justification. We "have been" (past tense, with ongoing present results) saved from the PENALTY of sin. Ongoing sanctification is a process in which we are being saved from the POWER of sin and the end is glorification in which we will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin.
 
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mailmandan said:
You said: Judas fell from Grace and faith. That's my point. So it is true then that a person can have the knowledge in Christ (faith) and still fall from it. How is that not claiming Judas was saved? :unsure:

Salvation is obtained in the beginning by grace through faith. It's called justification. We "have been" (past tense, with ongoing present results) saved from the PENALTY of sin. Ongoing sanctification is a process in which we are being saved from the POWER of sin and the end is glorification in which we will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin.
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Well, you can still from all that if you don't put an effort:

Heb 6:4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallen c away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
 
Noose said:
How can we have an effort in choosing when the bible clearly says we did not choose Him, he chose us?!

Heb 4:3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
......
9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, e just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

"Let us make every effort to choose the gospel" doesn't sound right at all.
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Make every effort to enter that rest/we who have believed enter that rest. Sounds absolutely right. :) (Hebrews 4:2-3).
 
mailmandan said:
Make every effort to enter that rest/we who have believed enter that rest. Sounds absolutely right. :) (Hebrews 4:2-3).
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It is our effort though, not God's and it is not an effort to choose the gospel but our effort to maintain faith. If we don't put an effort, we loose it.
 
Noose said:
It is our effort though, not God's and it is not an effort to choose the gospel but our effort to maintain faith. If we don't put an effort, we loose it.
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The effort is to "obtain it" and not maintain it. Good grief! If you choose to live your life in fear and bondage to IN-security then be my guest, but I got off that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security upon my conversion after leaving the Roman Catholic church several years ago (Praise God! :)) and you will NEVER convince me to get back on it.
 
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May I interject my 2 cents here please! God sent His Son,Jesus to die for the sins of ALL mankind,a perfect sinless sacrifice! I think everyone can agree that when Jesus is revealed to us as our saviour,we repent of ALL our former sins at that moment. We then confess before man that we ACCEPT this wonderful,priceless gift of God,by His umerited favour,GRACE! We exercise OUR FAITH(BELIEF),that it is truth! No one had to do anything to receive this precious gift,except believe God did it because we could not redeem ourselves! Jesus said that the two greatest commandments were " to love God with ALL your heart and worship Him only,AND to LOVE your neighbor as yourself! "When asked WHO the neighbor was He told them the parable of the good Samaritan! Jesus dictated unto us THE GREAT COMMISSION,we are to follow His example of doing the Fathers will! We work for the kingdom of God to increase those that love the Lord! We do this by evangelising,helping the poor,needy,widows,and orphans. IT DOES NOT GAIN US MORE FAVOUR WITH GOD! It also commanded to us TO LOVE THE BRETHERN AND THOSE OF THE HOUSEHOLD OF FAITH! To me love is an ACTION VERB,doing,going,helping,giving,saying! I truly believe that everyone who loves the LORD will be producing this action,not to curry favour but because WE LOVE HIM! These threads are causing division among the Bride of Christ,by the devils design! PEACE AND BLESSINGS TO YOU ALL!🌞🌞🌞
 
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Noose said:
Well, you can still from all that if you don't put an effort:

Heb 6:4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallen c away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
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I already discussed this passage of scripture with you in post #103,393. - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-5170

I'm really beginning to feel like I am just wasting my time.....

 
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mailmandan said:
The effort is to "obtain it"
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So we put our effort to obtain Faith in Christ
You also believe faith in Christ = salvation
So we put our effort to obtain salvation

You are dismantling your own

and not maintain it.
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Again our effort to maintain salvation/faith

Good grief! If you choose to live your life in fear and bondage to IN-security then be my guest, but I got off that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security upon my conversion after leaving the Roman Catholic church several years ago (Praise God! :)) and you will NEVER convince me to get back on it.
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This rant means nothing to me. I'm not trying to convince you, i'm telling you.
 
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