Not By Works

[mailmandan]

Heb 10:
23Let us hold resolutely to the hope we profess, for He who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how to spur one another on to love and good deeds. 25Let us not neglect meeting together, as some have made a habit, but let us encourage one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

26If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume all adversaries.28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.29How much more severely do you think one deserves to be punished who has trampled on the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

In Hebrews 10:26, to "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

*Notice how I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.*

The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation. In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation, as Paul explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant "saved," then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) which does not line up with scripture.

If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation as you teach, then we have a contradiction in scripture because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14)

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to "nominal" Christians/unbelievers and not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as an active participant in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but later commits apostasy by renouncing his identification with these believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

 

[Smooth]

Love others as thyself.

You’re not being specific.

 

[mailmandan]

Heb 4:1Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed. a3Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

In Hebrews 4:2-3, we read: For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM, but the word which THEY heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have BELIEVED do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between "US" who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and "THEM" who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

In regards to Hebrews 4:1 - "be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it" (entering His rest). We also find in Hebrews 12:15 - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God.. (NASB) The NIV reads - ..falls short of the grace of God. The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. *No loss of salvation here, only a failure to obtain it.

 

[Noose]

Notice that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and not "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have.

The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ. This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified by faith.

The justified person is actively involved in the process of ongoing sanctification, which has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't reach entire sanctification/live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life in our lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1). Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous upon having been saved through faith, ongoing sanctification is a process.

There are 3 tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification) These tenses often get mixed up by works-salvationists.

Correct, actively pursue meaning that we play a part as opposed to sitting because 'it is all finished'.

 

[Noose]

Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature (which is a divine nature) and have been transformed from dogs and pigs into sheep and also have new desires. The change is more than the cosmetic change for these dogs and pigs in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

*Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.*

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these people because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who rejected the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and was never saved.

Again, we have a part to play as individual, it is not all God, we either accept or reject but Peter is clearly dealing with rejecting after initially accepting it hence:

2 Pet 2:20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

This simply means faith in Christ can be lost and it is an individuals choice. You won't explain this away trust me.

 

[Noose]

That’s not a work; that the essence of Jesus Christ in you.

Then the essence of Christ is definitely a work that you must do. You don't think of love or believe or talk it, you do it.

 

[Noose]

John tells us that perfect love has no fear. Since God is love and God is perfect, we should have no fear.

That's right. You still have to work it.

 

[Smooth]

Then the essence of Christ is definitely a work that you must do. You don't think of love or believe or talk it, you do it.

Semantics.

 

[Smooth]

That's right. You still have to work it.

I love you.

 

[Noose]

In Hebrews 10:26, to "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

*Notice how I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.*

The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation. In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation, as Paul explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant "saved," then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) which does not line up with scripture.

If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation as you teach, then we have a contradiction in scripture because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14)

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to "nominal" Christians/unbelievers and not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as an active participant in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but later commits apostasy by renouncing his identification with these believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

Again, the idea is, we can receive the knowledge of truth (faith in Christ alone) and still loose it.
It is our own doing that we loose it meaning that it is not all God working to the end.

You told me of a biblical story of a man who was a believer and decided to sleep with their relative, was it God working in them or was it their decision to fall back?

 

[Noose]

You’re not being specific.

Like providing for the needy.

 

[Smooth]

Like providing for the needy.

And if you did not do that today and you died you would not have salvation?

 

[Noose]

Semantics.

Not really, just biblical definition of love for one another.

1 John 3:
16By this we know what love is: Jesus laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17If anyone with earthly possessions sees his brother in need, but withholds his compassion from him, how can the love of God abide in him?

18Little children, let us love not in word and speech, but in action and truth.

 

[Noose]

I love you.

I don't know you except for the few interactions over the internet so i'm not really sure about your claims, maybe demonstrate it.

 

[mailmandan]

Again, we have a part to play as individual, it is not all God, we either accept or reject but Peter is clearly dealing with rejecting after initially accepting it hence:

2 Pet 2:20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

This simply means faith in Christ can be lost and it is an individuals choice. You won't explain this away trust me.

I already thoroughly explained this passages of scripture to you in post #103,398 (and properly harmonized scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine) but unfortunately, I can see that the truth went right over your head (and there is a reason for that). Show me the words, "faith in Christ was lost" or "lost salvation" in 2 Peter 2:20.

Once again, having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these people because rejecting this knowledge (more intimate knowledge) will make them more accountable at the judgment. Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who rejected the knowledge of Jesus Christ (who was in the presence of Jesus for 3 years as one of the 12) yet was never saved and was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-70; 13:10-11). These cleaned up ON THE OUTSIDE dogs and pigs in 2 Peter 2:22 were NEVER SHEEP.

 

[mailmandan]

Again, the idea is, we can receive the knowledge of truth (faith in Christ alone) and still loose it.

Receiving the "knowledge" of the truth with no heart submission to that knowledge does not equate to faith in Christ alone. Show me the words "lose faith in Christ alone" or "lose salvation" in Hebrews 10:26.

It is our own doing that we loose it meaning that it is not all God working to the end.

You have too much faith in yourself and not enough faith in God's preservation. (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1)

You told me of a biblical story of a man who was a believer and decided to sleep with their relative, was it God working in them or was it their decision to fall back?

It was his decision and he truly stumbled, but was falling back his permanent, final answer?

 

[Noose]

In Hebrews 4:2-3, we read: For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM, but the word which THEY heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have BELIEVED do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between "US" who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and "THEM" who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

In regards to Hebrews 4:1 - "be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it" (entering His rest). We also find in Hebrews 12:15 - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God.. (NASB) The NIV reads - ..falls short of the grace of God. The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. *No loss of salvation here, only a failure to obtain it.

You definitely misunderstood the message, "The gospel was preached to us as well as them" refers to Israel in the OT. You just move one chapter before and find the context:

Heb 3:16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed?19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Heb 4 talks of today. We have received the good news just like they did and for it to benefit us, we must HOLD ON to faith, otherwise we can still loose it even after receiving the good news.

Again, if faith means salvation then it can be lost. It is our own decision to make.

 

[Noose]

And if you did not do that today and you died you would not have salvation?

If you die today, burial arrangements will be made.

 

[mailmandan]

You definitely misunderstood the message, "The gospel was preached to us as well as them" refers to Israel in the OT. You just move one chapter before and find the context:

Heb 3:16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed?19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Heb 4 talks of today. We have received the good news just like they did and for it to benefit us, we must HOLD ON to faith, otherwise we can still loose it even after receiving the good news.

Wow! You completely misunderstood the message in Hebrews 4:2-3. Hebrews 3:8-10 says, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' *Not descriptive of believers. *There is no loss of salvation here. *Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. *Not stopped believing, but DID NOT BELIEVE.

Again, if faith means salvation then it can be lost. It is our own decision to make.

Fear and bondage to IN-security is no way to live the Christian life. I'm still waiting for you to show me the specific words, "lost faith/lost salvation" in the Bible.

 

[Noose]

Receiving the "knowledge" of the truth with no heart submission to that knowledge does not equate to faith in Christ alone. Show me the words "lose faith in Christ alone" or "lose salvation" in Hebrews 10:26.

You have too much faith in yourself and not enough faith in God's preservation. (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1)

It was his decision and he truly stumbled, but was falling back his permanent, final answer?

"No heart submission to that knowledge" is your own creation. The knowledge being spoken of is the faith in Christ alone

2 Pet 1:
1Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

2Grace and peace be multiplied to you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through the knowledge of Him who called us by His owna glory and excellence. 4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith virtue; and to virtue, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities and continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.9But whoever lacks these traits is nearsighted to the point of blindness, having forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.


So Peter is saying, you can still have this awesome knowledge and still fall away from it. I don't see having this knowledge and still having a heart submission to it. Knowledge already resides in the heart (mind), you can not have it in your heart and still be required to have a heart submission to it, unless you don't know what you are talking about.