Works can NEVER earn salvation

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PS

PS

Senior Member
#41
Jan 11, 2013
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#41
Guojing said:
If you meant "He believe in God's existence", that is a given. God kept talking to him, even after he murdered Abel. :LOL:

But when we talk about belief here, we are talking about "believing in God's instructions on how to approach him in faith".

God may have told him to offer an animal sacrifice before, but he did not follow that. When God reminded him again in Gen 4:6-7, he continue to refuse to follow.
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I call that, "following Jesus."
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#42
Jan 11, 2013
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#42
So, first we believe in God for salvation, then we follow him His will to do, and are justified.
 
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Guojing

Banned
#43
Jan 12, 2019
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#43
PS said:
I call that, "following Jesus."
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You tell me how Cain and Abel could follow Jesus then.

They had to follow what God specifically revealed to them for their time,
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#44
Feb 6, 2014
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#44
1 John 4:20
“If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?”

We have to answer these question to know what is the fruit of faith

1. Can a man have faith in God but not love God

2. Can a man love God but not love fellow man

3. Can a man have faith but do not have love

1. I do not think so. If a man have faith in God he must love god, if a man hate God he he do not have faith in God

2. No bible say if a man say love God but not love other he is liar

3. No if a man have faith he must have love or he is liar.

Salvation is by faith alone, but faith that save bear fruit of love, not fruit of hatred. Jesus in a man of faith manifest Himself in love the enemy.

A man of faith will go to the direction into act like Jesus/Christ like
 
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Noose

Senior Member
#45
Apr 18, 2016
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#45
Deuteronomy said:
Hi Guojing, I believe that passage actually has far more to do with living our (Christian) lives, than it has to do with salvation.

That said, how was Abel saved in your opinion?

If, for instance, our sins can be forgiven by a proper sacrifice (by the blood of bulls and goats), and/or if we are saved by our obedience to God, then why did He send His Son here to both live on our behalf, and then to die for us? IOW, why the Incarnation, and why the Cross?

Thanks!

~Deut

Hebrews 9​
22 Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.​
​
Hebrews 10​
4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.​
​
.
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Who is a sinner? i think we all are.
So God sent His son to live and die for us all, but why are some still condemned? Is it something they did or failed to do? their own choice to do or fail to do? or is it God that chooses for them.
 
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Jackson123

Senior Member
#46
Feb 6, 2014
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#46
Noose said:
Who is a sinner? i think we all are.
So God sent His son to live and die for us all, but why are some still condemned? Is it something they did or failed to do? their own choice to do or fail to do? or is it God that chooses for them.
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Luke 15:7

“I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.”

One sinner repent heaven make a party.

Seem to me God so love the world and expect all people save.

So I do not believe god chose people to go to hell.

If so, that verse is fake.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#47
Apr 22, 2013
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#47
The fruit does NOT produce the tree. The fruit IDENTIFIES the tree. Works Salvationists simply can't wrap their heads around this very simple concept.

Luke 6:43-45 New King James Version (NKJV)
A Tree Is Known by Its Fruit
43 “For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush.45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil [a]treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#48
Apr 7, 2014
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#48
DJ3 said:
Regardless of what was "evidenced" it was the act that was the point/moment of being commended. God expects and insist that we act on our faith. Yes faith is a must but so is the proper response to that faith.

The blind man at the Pool of Siloam had faith but it was the act or work of washing that gave him his sight.

Can you truly not see this?
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Abel’s offering gave evidence that he was a righteous man, but his offering did not make him become a righteous man. It was by or "out of" faith that Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, but that was not the point/moment of becoming righteous. Through his sacrifice, he was shown to be righteous (not accounted as righteous) just as Abraham offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22 and was shown to be righteous (James 2:21) but he was accounted as righteous many years before that based on his faith and not his works. (Genesis 15:5-6; Romans 4:2-3)

The blind man was cured of blindness after he washed in the Pool of Siloam. He was not saved by faith + the merits of washing in the Pool of Siloam. Can you not truly see this? What I see is you continuing to peddle salvation by faith + works.
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#49
Feb 6, 2014
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#49
PennEd said:
The fruit does NOT produce the tree. The fruit IDENTIFIES the tree. Works Salvationists simply can't wrap their heads around this very simple concept.

Luke 6:43-45 New King James Version (NKJV)
A Tree Is Known by Its Fruit
43 “For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush.45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil [a]treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
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Yep, but some people believe good tree may produce bad fruit.

In the discussion in y church, some people believe event if you kill and rob every day as long as you have faith in Jesus you save, you may do not have reward, but you save

Seem to me some people believe it is posible have faith in Jesus and do not love other

I do not know what they believe, they may believe it is posible to love God but hate fellow man
 
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Noose

Senior Member
#50
Apr 18, 2016
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#50
Jackson123 said:
Luke 15:7

“I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.”

One sinner repent heaven make a party.

Seem to me God so love the world and expect all people save.

So I do not believe god chose people to go to hell.

If so, that verse is fake.
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Why expect if He is doing everything including selecting people to be saved?
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#51
Jan 11, 2013
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#51
Guojing said:
You tell me how Cain and Abel could follow Jesus then.

They had to follow what God specifically revealed to them for their time,
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God had revealed it to them already in the process of time (v3). We know this because Abel did what was right in the sight of God by offering the best parts of some of the firstborn from his flock. On the other hand God rejected Cain's bloodless offering of fruits and vegetables. Point being, Abel's offering looked forward to the substitutionary death of the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.
 
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Guojing

Banned
#52
Jan 12, 2019
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#52
PS said:
God had revealed it to them already, and Abel did what was right in the sight of God by offering the best parts of some of the firstborn from his flock. On the other hand God rejected Cain's bloodless offering of fruits and vegetables. Point being, Abel's offering looked forward to the substitutionary death of the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.
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I see you like to anticipate revelation. Okay, you can go ahead and believe that.
 
N

Noose

Senior Member
#53
Apr 18, 2016
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#53
Heb 4:1Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed. a3Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,


Heb 6:
1Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, a and of faith in God, 2instruction about cleansing rites, b the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallen c away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
 
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Guojing

Banned
#57
Jan 12, 2019
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#57
Locoponydirtman said:
It's a good thing that we have an acceptable sacrifice in Christ Jesus.
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Yes, we are blessed in that Jesus died for us. We don't need to offer an animal sacrifice to show our faith unlike what Abel had to do.
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#58
Jan 11, 2013
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#58
Guojing said:
What did God tell Cain to do, in that passage?
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In the words of my mother, "to be an overcomer" meaning to overcome sin and wickedness, or if you prefer to overcome the devil.
 
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Guojing

Banned
#59
Jan 12, 2019
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#59
PS said:
In the words of my mother, "to be an overcomer" meaning to overcome sin and wickedness, or if you prefer to overcome the devil.
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Do you consider that a work then?
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#60
Jan 11, 2013
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#60
Guojing said:
Do you consider that a work then?
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Not physical work. Faith etc. are spiritual as indeed God is Spirit and if we want to interact with God it has to be in the Spirit. This is separate from looking after the elderly for example which are works of the flesh and not all such works are beneficial and nothing we do of a physical nature can save our soul.
 
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