Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?
- Thread starter Marcelo
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
demean what? a judeaizer conspiracy theory that Jesus rose on the Sabbath, so we should keep the Sabbath.
you see, here is the problem - the greek word used is dawn / morning . it means daybreak and coming light. not sunset.
the women did not go to the tomb until sun. morning . period.
you see, here is the problem - the greek word used is dawn / morning . it means daybreak and coming light. not sunset.
the women did not go to the tomb until sun. morning . period.
-
3
- Show all
Are you then inferring you would rather "continue in sin", that Grace may abound? 
From EG's post you have assumed that those who do not work at the law and who are not Judaizers will continue in sin.
EG has shown that the only way to NOT continue in sin is to abide solely in Christ and NOT in working at the law in your own (failed) understanding and strength.
-
2
-
1
- Show all
The law shows what sin is. That's the law's purpose isn't it? How far have we gone as a body that we can't even accept basic foundational truths anymore. It's a sin because the law says it is, not Joshua says. This says nothing about the other side (i.e. salvation by faith through Christ). Post asked me if it was a sin (i.e. a transgression of the law). Yes. Then asked me if he was wicked not to obey the law. Yes. Isn't that the premise of needing Christ? That we're sinners?
What kind of conversation is this in the bible study room on a Christian site??
Romans 7:7
"Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin"
In Paul's world.
Romans 7:14
"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."
Pointing out sin and encouraging bretheren not to sin like we're instructed? On a Christian site? I don't know what I was thinking.
If I don't hate the law like you say (thank you by the way) but talk about it constantly like you say, am I operating in the flesh or the Spirit, based on Paul's words? It's a simple test. Paul literally explains that such is how one determines which mode a person is operating it.
Romans 8:7&9
"because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so...You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."
You do realize the law wasn't the issue, but the letter thereof and our flesh? This is what you're saying: "you focus on the law and not the law."
the Torah in letter form = The tablets & scrolls
the Torah made flesh = Christ
the Torah in Spirit = Holy Spirit
A house divided against itself can not stand. This is exactly why Paul ties the mind of Christ to submitting to Yah's law in Romans 8, like I just posted above. One needs the mind of Christ to submit to the law of God because the law is spiritual. But the mind of flesh can't and won't submit. Literally what Paul said.
Isaiah 5:20
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter"
Context. Gotta understand context. This is Peter's testimony. Please consider everything he says. If anyone knew Paul's intentions for his letters Peter did:
2 Peter 3:16-18
"[Paul] writes this way in all his letters speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which IGNORANT and UNSTABLE people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard so that you will not be carried away by the ERROR OR THE LAWLESS and fall from your secure standing.
18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity.
Amen."
If this passage doesn't perfectly clear up the whole grace/law relationship, and what Paul's true intention was regarding his letters (as testified by Peter), I don't know what will.
I've turned the scriptures on their head...by posting them word for word without alteration?? Or could it be that you and a few others have been reading the entire book upside-down for decades?
What kind of conversation is this in the bible study room on a Christian site??
Romans 7:7
"Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin"
In Paul's world.
Romans 7:14
"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."
Pointing out sin and encouraging bretheren not to sin like we're instructed? On a Christian site? I don't know what I was thinking.
If I don't hate the law like you say (thank you by the way) but talk about it constantly like you say, am I operating in the flesh or the Spirit, based on Paul's words? It's a simple test. Paul literally explains that such is how one determines which mode a person is operating it.
Romans 8:7&9
"because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so...You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."
You do realize the law wasn't the issue, but the letter thereof and our flesh? This is what you're saying: "you focus on the law and not the law."
the Torah in letter form = The tablets & scrolls
the Torah made flesh = Christ
the Torah in Spirit = Holy Spirit
A house divided against itself can not stand. This is exactly why Paul ties the mind of Christ to submitting to Yah's law in Romans 8, like I just posted above. One needs the mind of Christ to submit to the law of God because the law is spiritual. But the mind of flesh can't and won't submit. Literally what Paul said.
Isaiah 5:20
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter"
Context. Gotta understand context. This is Peter's testimony. Please consider everything he says. If anyone knew Paul's intentions for his letters Peter did:
2 Peter 3:16-18
"[Paul] writes this way in all his letters speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which IGNORANT and UNSTABLE people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard so that you will not be carried away by the ERROR OR THE LAWLESS and fall from your secure standing.
18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity.
Amen."
If this passage doesn't perfectly clear up the whole grace/law relationship, and what Paul's true intention was regarding his letters (as testified by Peter), I don't know what will.
I've turned the scriptures on their head...by posting them word for word without alteration?? Or could it be that you and a few others have been reading the entire book upside-down for decades?
-
1
- Show all
Greetings PH,
While man may yet be the only source, it does not mean God, His Holy Spirit does not have some message in it for you.
Many times the Holy Spirit has used the words of carnal men to humble me, to deliver a message.
I have pasted an excerpt from a book I consider well thought out and written.
Read this and see if his words bring any meaning to those in question.
SG
Gregory Mantle
Beyond Humiliation: The Way of the Cross
Chapter 2
A Mixed Life
Beyond Humiliation: The Way of the Cross
Chapter 2
A Mixed Life
In the beginning a threefold separation was accomplished before the command was given: “Be fruitful, and multiply.” God separated the light from the darkness, the waters beneath from the waters above the firmament, the sea from the dry land. To show His jealousy for physical order still further, He forbid an Israelite to plow with an ox and an ass under the same yoke (Deut. xxii. 10). The sowing of a field with mingled seed, and the wearing of a garment mingled of linen and woolen were also strictly forbidden (Lev. xix. 19). To this day an orthodox Jew will not mend a woolen garment with a flaxen thread. One of the preparations made by the Jews for an approaching Passover was to go over the fields and root up plants that had grown from mingled seeds. These prohibitions were intended to cultivate in the mind of the people the sentiment of reverence for the order established in nature by God. Wool and linen come from separate kingdoms in nature, one from the animal, the other from the vegetable, and unmixedness of moral character is clearly foreshadowed. To wear, in the same robe, the wool of selfishness and the linen of spirituality is contrary to the law of order which prevails in the kingdom of grace as in the kingdom of nature. God is as jealous — nay, more jealous — of moral order than of physical order, and in the management of their cattle, in the cultivation of their fields, in the making and wearing of their clothes, God was whispering in their ear, “Be pure of heart and life.” “What communion hath light with darkness?”
This thought of unmixedness is still further illustrated in the dress of the priests: “When the priests minister in the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; no wool shall come upon them while they minister in the inner court, and within” (Ezek. xliv. 17). To enter “within the veil” and dwell there in the presence of God, there must be a laying aside of all that appertains to the dark world — the world of our selfhood — and we must be clothed with the fine linen, clean and white, which is the righteous acts of the saints and the robing of the Bride of Christ (Rev. xix. 8).
Few will deny that this mixedness in Christian life and work is a great bane, and seriously interferes with the effectiveness of both. This must be so, because it is a subversion of God’s order, and, as we have previously intimated, the creature will not be permitted with impunity to interfere with the laws established by the Creator. This was Paul’s trouble in the Corinthian Church. The Christians were possessed of a regenerate babe-life which Paul calls “carnality.” They lived a kind of suspended life, now dominated by the flesh and now by the Spirit, and the result was an elementary experience, envying, strife, and division (I Cor. iii.). Those who are living this mixed life are spoken of as double-minded (more exactly double-souled) men (James i. 8; iii. 8). There is only one cure for such a condition. It is the converging of all the desires and affections in the same center, viz., the love of God’s will and glory. When this is the case true singleness of heart is experienced. “If thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.”
Before we can live the unmixed life, and belong no longer to the carnal but to the spiritual Christians, we must be willing to know the extent of the mixedness in our own character, for what the eye does not see the heart will not grieve over. Before we invite God to search us, let us pause and ask whether we are willing that He should make a thorough work of this self-discovery, however painful and humbling it may be. If not, we had better not begin; for it is better to be without the light than to possess it and be disobedient.
For obvious reasons no branch of knowledge is so neglected as knowledge of ourselves. In other sciences knowledge flatters the vanity of the unsanctified heart; it exalts men in the eyes of others, it increases their influence in the world. But true self-discovery wounds our pride, and spoils the good opinion we had formed and cherished of ourselves. We may be skilled in every other science and ignorant in this. We may be able to calculate the motions of the heavenly bodies, and know nothing of the movements of our own sinful nature. We may be able to plant our foot on a mountain summit where no human foot has ever before trod, and yet be ignorant of the dimensions of the black mountain of evil in our heart. We may be able by chemical analysis to detect and decompose the material substances around us, and yet never analyze the motives by which we are influenced, and which color and stain all our conduct.
“Self-love conspires with trust in our own hearts to make dupes of us as regards our spiritual account. Proverbially, and in the verdict of all experience, love is blind; and if love be blind, self-love being the strongest, the most subtle, the most changeless, the most difficult to eradicate of all loves, is blinder still. Self-love will not see, as self-trust cannot see, anything against us.” It is this ignorance that leads to quiescence. The hateful foe assumes such disguises, and appears so exactly the opposite of what he really is, that we lose sight of the fact that he is a devil still, and that, as Luther was wont to say, the white devil is more to be dreaded than the black.
What is necessary then, since self-love will cause us to live in such a fool’s paradise if we follow its interested opinion, is the search-light of God. This, and this alone, will disturb our self-complacency and self-deception. “Because thou sayest, I am rich, and have gotten riches, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art the wretched one and miserable and poor and blind and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold refined by fire, that thou mayest become rich; and white garments that thou mayest clothe thyself, and that the shame of thy nakedness be not made manifest; and eyesalve to anoint thine eyes, that thou mayest see” (Rev. iii. 17, 18, R.V.).
“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it? I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins [the hidden part] even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings” (Jer. 17:9,10). What are spoken of as the reins, here and elsewhere in the Bible, are the secret thoughts, desires, and affections of the soul.
The heart is so exceedingly complicated and intricate; it is so near the eye which seeks to investigate it, that it baffles our research. There are a few things about the heart which are broad and open, and which we can in some measure, discover. But there are chambers receding within chambers, which no human investigation can ever reach. To explore these hidden chambers is the prerogative of God alone.
!
Lol oh boy I better make sure I dont overlook anyone of you (while still answering the question) in the barrage of replies i receive, ever again. Could be misconstrued as "avoidance". Lol God forbid it's seen as human, but then again we look for "gotcha" moments more than address the subject matter.
You seem angry that I told you that you not following a law of God is a sin. That's strange.
You seem angry that I told you that you not following a law of God is a sin. That's strange.
-
1
- Show all
Exactly, hence the Spirit of the Law. What convicts one person, does not convict another. We can commit a sin that has never been written at any time "in stone" yet it was written upon "my heart" yet never on yours, because the conviction from the Holy Spirit is different for each of us as Gods Will for my life is, as the gift (s) given me are also different.
God having written it upon our hearts, took away judgement from man (from the "saved" man). (Does not seem to have effected or affected or wrong word all together, anyway, the "I say I am saved so there fore I am and I this is how everything goes for everyone....."
We can no longer look down on a piece of paper and say to someone you are in compliance or not. That is Gods call (always has been, I know). This is also a way I have found to tell those, in which the Holy Spirit truly resides, from those in which it does not. Someone without would come along and "tell" you "this is what it this means or says" only able to see the "letter of it" never the "spirit of it" therefore never being able to discern what the "spirit led soul" sees as clear as day. There is no explaining to someone without the spirit, that this is Gods Truth for me, while at the same time not you. It is impossible for them to grasp that idea. GOD must be found "within" the letter for them BUT "within the letter" Gods truth can never be found.
I recently had this hammered home again, Please God let me keep it this time. Well I have been stalling long enough trying to recall the question I wanted so badly to ask yesterday, was so important. I will give myself a little while and if it does not come back I will find a new one.
God having written it upon our hearts, took away judgement from man (from the "saved" man). (Does not seem to have effected or affected or wrong word all together, anyway, the "I say I am saved so there fore I am and I this is how everything goes for everyone....."
We can no longer look down on a piece of paper and say to someone you are in compliance or not. That is Gods call (always has been, I know). This is also a way I have found to tell those, in which the Holy Spirit truly resides, from those in which it does not. Someone without would come along and "tell" you "this is what it this means or says" only able to see the "letter of it" never the "spirit of it" therefore never being able to discern what the "spirit led soul" sees as clear as day. There is no explaining to someone without the spirit, that this is Gods Truth for me, while at the same time not you. It is impossible for them to grasp that idea. GOD must be found "within" the letter for them BUT "within the letter" Gods truth can never be found.
I recently had this hammered home again, Please God let me keep it this time. Well I have been stalling long enough trying to recall the question I wanted so badly to ask yesterday, was so important. I will give myself a little while and if it does not come back I will find a new one.
Sounds like we're basically on the same page, use the law for guidance and be led by the spirit, not bound by the letter of the law.
I do occasionally meet some nice folks here on Christian chat who feel that there is a moral section in the written code that God gave through Moses in the wilderness that is to be kept in all places throughout history.
But it doesn't sound like either of us think that.
I'm looking forward to whatever question you want to ask, when you post it, please hit reply to one of my posts so I will be sure to see your question!
-
1
- Show all
I think it applies to all 13 tribes. But for many of the tribes, it might only be a remnant, the descendants of the small number of people from the northern tribes who left that kingdom when it went bad.
2 Chronicles 11: 16. And after them, from all the tribes of Israel, all those whose hearts were fixed and true to the Lord, the God of Israel, came to Jerusalem to make offerings to the Lord, the God of their fathers.
2 Chronicles 11: 16. And after them, from all the tribes of Israel, all those whose hearts were fixed and true to the Lord, the God of Israel, came to Jerusalem to make offerings to the Lord, the God of their fathers.
You responded as if the portion you quoted was the only thing I said. That, my dear brother, is called dishonest dialog it's actually why you're having trouble with understanding Paul and the scriptures. We have a bad habit of pulling passages out of their context and then making doctrine out of them.
it's actually why you're having trouble with understanding Paul and the scriptures. We have a bad habit of pulling passages out of their context and then making doctrine out of them.
For sure.
Like, find out what caring after your neighbors lost animals, cross dressing, birds with eggs in their nest, parapets on rooves, sowing mixed seed in a field, plowing with an ox and a donkey together, mixed fibers in and tassels on all four corners of garments all have in common and particularly what these things all say together about Christ, because all scripture testifies of Him.
God doesn't happen to be impressing on me that righteousness is achieved or displayed by 100% cotton, tho. He's impressed on me that Deuteronomy 22 isn't a random collection of odd statutes: it's a very deliberately organized picture of the Messiah.
So how does Christ fulfill verse 11? And what does this have to do with taking eggs from a nest while leaving the mother bird?
That's far more important to me than looking down ones nose at someone whose sweatpants contain elastic.
Like, find out what caring after your neighbors lost animals, cross dressing, birds with eggs in their nest, parapets on rooves, sowing mixed seed in a field, plowing with an ox and a donkey together, mixed fibers in and tassels on all four corners of garments all have in common and particularly what these things all say together about Christ, because all scripture testifies of Him.
God doesn't happen to be impressing on me that righteousness is achieved or displayed by 100% cotton, tho. He's impressed on me that Deuteronomy 22 isn't a random collection of odd statutes: it's a very deliberately organized picture of the Messiah.
So how does Christ fulfill verse 11? And what does this have to do with taking eggs from a nest while leaving the mother bird?
That's far more important to me than looking down ones nose at someone whose sweatpants contain elastic.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
In the progression of the thread's conversation - as what typically happens - I've said more on this. In fact, it's the reason for so many replies to me. I don't mean to make you feel left out by not quoting you specifically, if that's what you're feeling. I assumed it would be easy to continue to read the conversation since you answered my question. Apologies.
-----
The reason why I asked the question is because Israel was given a code to operate by. Gentiles were not. Israel was promised gifts. Gentiles were not. Israel was promised Christ. Gentiles were not. If one isn't part of Israel fabrics are irrelevant.
But Yah's people, Israel, are to be set apart. To be holy and pure and separate. They are not to do the things the world does. There's no such thing as a follower of Yah (Israel) who operates no differently than a gentile in EVERY facet of life, like wearing mixed fabrics or eating pork or shaving the sides of their heads etc.
Every moment the follower of Yah (Israel) walks around they take on the name of the Father and the Son and reflect who he is, as priests to the world. At every turn they are representing The Almighty and The Redeemer.
As such, a newborn into ISRAEL (a gentile believer) is perfectly accepted as they are, receiving Christ. No one is turned away. Being forgiven of their sins...but are then are expected to learn and GROW in holiness, not stay where they are. Not remain gentile babes. They are ISRAEL now, Yah's beloved jewels. They are to conform to the body of Yah's firstborn. This is what the counsel in Acts was partly all about.
So for gentile believers who are born into this family, into ISRAEL, who do not yet know all the ways, who are still on milk, they are not held to a higher standard yet; on them is placed no greater burden yet, as was determined by that meeting.
Only the truth they know in their conscience becomes the FULL code by which they are weighed, as explained by Paul. The only things they are responsible for are the basics they are taught, as enumerated by James.
And then in the progression of time, they are purposed to learn more and more of Yah's ways (which is what James concludes when he said the law is preached every sabbath day)...until such time as they conform to the perfect image of the son, as part of his body.
Why?
Answer: Because man lives by every word, every word, every word that proceeds from the Father.
Every word.
-----
The reason why I asked the question is because Israel was given a code to operate by. Gentiles were not. Israel was promised gifts. Gentiles were not. Israel was promised Christ. Gentiles were not. If one isn't part of Israel fabrics are irrelevant.
But Yah's people, Israel, are to be set apart. To be holy and pure and separate. They are not to do the things the world does. There's no such thing as a follower of Yah (Israel) who operates no differently than a gentile in EVERY facet of life, like wearing mixed fabrics or eating pork or shaving the sides of their heads etc.
Every moment the follower of Yah (Israel) walks around they take on the name of the Father and the Son and reflect who he is, as priests to the world. At every turn they are representing The Almighty and The Redeemer.
As such, a newborn into ISRAEL (a gentile believer) is perfectly accepted as they are, receiving Christ. No one is turned away. Being forgiven of their sins...but are then are expected to learn and GROW in holiness, not stay where they are. Not remain gentile babes. They are ISRAEL now, Yah's beloved jewels. They are to conform to the body of Yah's firstborn. This is what the counsel in Acts was partly all about.
So for gentile believers who are born into this family, into ISRAEL, who do not yet know all the ways, who are still on milk, they are not held to a higher standard yet; on them is placed no greater burden yet, as was determined by that meeting.
Only the truth they know in their conscience becomes the FULL code by which they are weighed, as explained by Paul. The only things they are responsible for are the basics they are taught, as enumerated by James.
And then in the progression of time, they are purposed to learn more and more of Yah's ways (which is what James concludes when he said the law is preached every sabbath day)...until such time as they conform to the perfect image of the son, as part of his body.
Why?
Answer: Because man lives by every word, every word, every word that proceeds from the Father.
Every word.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Jeremiah 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people
Let's break it down then. Do all 4 gospels agree the Lord was laid in the sepulchre on the Preparation Day, immediately before "the High Sabbath"? Nisan 14 and 15? Any problems you see here?
Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Jeremiah 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people
Let's break it down then. Do all 4 gospels agree the Lord was laid in the sepulchre on the Preparation Day, immediately before "the High Sabbath"? Nisan 14 and 15? Any problems you see here?