Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Noose]

Even though this shallow ground hearer is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? Let me give you the reasons. First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation. Unlike saving faith, temporary shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving faith?

IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. I understand the rocky soil to represent a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and good soil represents a person properly prepared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with patience.

John has portrayed people who "believe" to some level but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their "belief" was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. YOU CALL THAT SAVED?

In regards to the seed that is sown among thorns, the person hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful, produces nothing, yields nothing. It was choked out before reaching it's desired goal.

IN CONTRAST TO - the seed that fell on good soil, the person hears the word and understands it, who INDEED BEARS FRUIT with patience (perseverance) and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)

There's no indication from this parable that all ground that received the seed (faith), produced fruit, contrary to your claims, some did not even try, some tried for a season ( i had highlighted that for you) and failed later on, some grew the entire time together with thistles (choked by worries of this world) and in the end failed to produce.

I wonder what makes others fail halfway and others endure all the way, and why some are less fruitful and others more fruitful if it the work of the Lord from beginning to end without our input.

 

[Grandpa]

To whole gospel you promote, teaches a license for immorality. If we eat the forbidden fruit we will die. Dont be deceived. If we disobey God like Adam we will surely die. OSAS doctrine comes from calvanism. Its founder truly evil. So I would beware of listening to anything from a murderer. Go and study the theology of calvinism. Read unconditional election one of the 5 points of calvinism. T.U.L.I.P

The forbidden fruit has already been eaten. Disobedience has already taken place.

Now we need to come out from under this position of Condemnation and Death.

Christ provides for this Way out of Condemnation and Death. And He doesn't throw us back if we don't live up to what some misguided legalist says.


Unconditional election says that God does not His Foreknowledge in order to choose a person based on what they would or would not have done.

In other words, Unconditional election means that God chooses based on His Grace and not our works.

Just like Ephesians 2:8-10 says

 

[Noose]

That's because people who are against It,focus on you can sin all you want and still be saved when the bible says that everyone who has this hope(eternal life) WILL seek to purify THEMSELVES even as they are pure.

In other words a person that has been born Again ,their spirit has been made Perfect and after that,then they want to match their minds to fit the new creation they have become so then they won't even have a desire to continue In sin nevertheless If they do sin and of course they will sin,GOD will not hold that against them because GOD looks at the Inside which was made Perfect.

This is slightly confusing to me; if we have been made perfect, why do we have to seek further purification for ourselves? isn't this works after faith?

 

[mailmandan]

There's no indication from this parable that all ground that received the seed (faith), produced fruit, contrary to your claims, some did not even try, some tried for a season ( i had highlighted that for you) and failed later on, some grew the entire time together with thistles (choked by worries of this world) and in the end failed to produce.

I wonder what makes others fail halfway and others endure all the way, and why some are less fruitful and others more fruitful if it the work of the Lord from beginning to end without our input.

In CONTRAST, to the rocky and thorny soil, we read in Matthew 13:23 - "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."

Only the 4th soil produced crops of any size. Now I suppose the question still remains, "can this forth soil eventually become fruitless?" If this were possible, why didn't Christ include such a scenario before concluding?

*There is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers. Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is NO MENTION OF CHOKING OR WITHERING THEREAFTER.

 

[Noose]

In CONTRAST, to the rocky and thorny soil, we read in Matthew 13:23 - "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."

Only the 4th soil produced crops of any size. Now I suppose the question still remains, "can this forth soil eventually become fruitless?" If this were possible, why didn't Christ include such a scenario before concluding?

*There is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers. Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is NO MENTION OF CHOKING OR WITHERING THEREAFTER.

My question was:
1. why the difference in fruit production from the 4th soil (good soil) if it is Christ that does everything from the beginning to end? does it have anything to do with us as individuals?

2. Why some soils failed from the beginning and others failed after a season if it is Christ that does the work from beginning to end? did Christ start and not finish what He started or is it something to do with us as individuals?

 

[mailmandan]

My question was:
1. why the difference in fruit production from the 4th soil (good soil) if it is Christ that does everything from the beginning to end? does it have anything to do with us as individuals?

2. Why some soils failed from the beginning and others failed after a season if it is Christ that does the work from beginning to end? did Christ start and not finish what He started or is it something to do with us as individuals?

Christ doesn’t do the works for us, but He works in us and all genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful, as we saw with the 4th soil in Matthew 13:23. Those who produce no fruit/no crop are not truly converted. The soils that fail to produce, do so because the seed/the word was never firmly rooted and established from the start.

 

[Noose]

Christ doesn’t do the works for us, but He works in us and all genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful, as we saw with the 4th soil in Matthew 13:23. Those who produce no fruit/no crop are not truly converted. The soils that fail produce, do so because the seed/the word was never firmly rooted and established from the start.

If it is Christ that does everything from start to end, why are some believers more fruitful than others?

If the word was not firmly rooted in some believers then it has everything to do with those individual believers, and not Christ failing to finish what He started. Maybe this is the reason we are told to hold fast what we have.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

This is slightly confusing to me; if we have been made perfect, why do we have to seek further purification for ourselves? isn't this works after faith?

seriously?
That should be easy for a Christian to understand.It was our spirit that was created New and after that RENEW your mind to the New you.

Romans 12:1-2
King James Version


1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

[Grandpa]

My question was:
1. why the difference in fruit production from the 4th soil (good soil) if it is Christ that does everything from the beginning to end? does it have anything to do with us as individuals?

2. Why some soils failed from the beginning and others failed after a season if it is Christ that does the work from beginning to end? did Christ start and not finish what He started or is it something to do with us as individuals?

Have you not noticed that you, yourself, have gone through ALL the conditions of the soil on your way to coming to Christ and being saved?

Don't you understand the scripture that says no temptation has come upon you that is not common to man?

I suppose the seed falling on the rocky ground is common. I suppose the seed growing for a few minutes and then withering is also common.

I would bet that the seed going into good ground and producing lots of fruit is not so common.

Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[DeighAnn]

The day of your new birth in Christ Jesus, born from above.

Baptism, the ritual so to speak, is a demonstration to the world that you died in Christ and are risen to new life in Him.

My question is do you repent on the day of your baptism and no other?

 

[Noose]

seriously?
That should be easy for a Christian to understand.It was our spirit that was created New and after that RENEW your mind to the New you.

Romans 12:1-2
King James Version


1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

How do i present my body as a living sacrifice? can you provide an example of presenting ones body as a living sacrifice acceptable to God and does it require my own effort?

 

[mailmandan]

If it is Christ that does everything from start to end, why are some believers more fruitful than others?

If the word was not firmly rooted in some believers then it has everything to do with those individual believers, and not Christ failing to finish what He started. Maybe this is the reason we are told to hold fast what we have.

Holding fast confirms a faith that was firmly rooted and established from the start and failing to hold fast demonstrates a faith that was never firmly rooted and established from the start. Only the 4th soil represents authentic saving faith.

 

[Grandpa]

If it is Christ that does everything from start to end, why are some believers more fruitful than others?

Because they don't believe.

They don't believe it is Christ that works in them.

They believe carnally that they must cultivate in themselves what only Christ cultivates.


Shouldn't be too hard for you to see this.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

My question was:
1. why the difference in fruit production from the 4th soil (good soil) if it is Christ that does everything from the beginning to end? does it have anything to do with us as individuals?

2. Why some soils failed from the beginning and others failed after a season if it is Christ that does the work from beginning to end? did Christ start and not finish what He started or is it something to do with us as individuals?

Hense OSAS
A person has to choose to be saved or as I usually say,say yes to obedience of faith.Then GOD does a work creating our spirits Perfect but until GOD DES a work you are trying to be righteous In your own strength and you will come up short.

 

[DeighAnn]

All sins were dealt with at the cross, all sins have been forgiven. When we are born again/born from above we receive His full pardon for what was past, present and future.

Colossians 2:13-14 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

Hebrews 10:12-14 states that Jesus offered Himself as a once for all time sacrifice for sin that has made us perfect forever.

“Oh, what joy for those whose disobedience is forgiven, whose sins are put out of sight. Yes, what joy for those whose record the Lord has cleared of sin.”
—Romans 4:7–8 NLT

So I went to the interlinear and followed by the Lexicon and future sins forgiven, not here that I can find. Could you show me how you arrive at that Please?

2532 And 4771 you 3498 dead 1510 being 1772 in 3588 the 3900 trepass 2532 and 3588 in the 203 circumcism 3588 of the
4516 flesh 4771 of you 4806 he made alive together 4771 you 4862 with 846 Him 5483 having forgiven 1473 us 3956 all 3588 the
1813 having blotted out 3588 the 2596 against 1473 us 5498 handwriting 3588 in the 1378 decrees 3739 which 1510 was 5227 adverse 1473 to us 2532 and 846 it 142 He has taken 1537 out of 3588 the 3319 way 4338 having nailed it to the 4716 cross


When you were deadνεκροὺς
(nekrous)3498: deada prim. word, the same as nekus (a dead body)in your transgressionsπαραπτώμασιν
(paraptōmasin)3900: a false step, a trespassfrom parapiptóand the uncircumcision ἀκροβυστίᾳ
(akrobustia)203: the prepuce, foreskin, hence uncircumcisionof uncertain originof your flesh,σαρκὸς
(sarkos)4561: flesha prim. word He made you alive togetherσυνεζωοποίησεν
(sunezōopoiēsen)4806: to make alive together withfrom sun and zóopoieówith Him, having forgivenχαρισάμενος
(charisamenos)5483: to show favor, give freelyfrom charisus allπάντα
(panta)3956: all, everya prim. wordour transgressions,παραπτώματ
(paraptōmata)3900: a false step, a trespassfrom parapiptó

having canceledἐξαλείψας
(exaleipsas)1813: to wipe out, erase, obliteratefrom ek and aleiphóout the certificate of debtχειρόγραφον
(cheirographon)5498: a (handwritten) document, legal note, bondfrom cheir and graphóconsisting of decreesδόγμασιν
(dogmasin)1378: an opinion, (a public) decreefrom dokeóagainstκαθ’
(kath)2596: down, against, according topreposition of uncertain originus, whichὃ
(o)3739: usually rel. who, which, that, also demonstrative this, thata prim. pronounwas hostileὑπεναντίον
(upenantion)5227: set over against, oppositefrom hupo and enantiosto us; and He has takenἦρκεν
(ērken)142: to raise, take up, lifta prim. verbit out of the way,μέσου
(mesou)3319: middle, in the midsta prim. wordhaving nailedπροσηλώσας
(prosēlōsas)4338: to nail tofrom pros and a derivation of hélosit to the cross.σταυρῷ
(staurō)4716: an upright stake, hence a cross (the Rom. instrument of crucifixion)from the same as histémi

 

[Grandpa]

How do i present my body as a living sacrifice? can you provide an example of presenting ones body as a living sacrifice acceptable to God and does it require my own effort?

Come to Christ and receive rest.

Do you think your own effort is going to make you a living sacrifice acceptable to God?

Or do you think Christ working in you is more likely to make you acceptable to God?

Who is more wise?
Who is stronger?

You and your efforts? Or Christ and His?

 

[DeighAnn]

The day of your new birth in Christ Jesus, born from above.

Baptism, the ritual so to speak, is a demonstration to the world that you died in Christ and are risen to new life in Him.

We may be at an impasse as we have a fundamental difference in "born from above" along with born of water. Am I correct that your belief is you are born from above when you are baptized? and this is also when you are born of water?

Do you repent only on day of baptism?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

How do i present my body as a living sacrifice? can you provide an example of presenting ones body as a living sacrifice acceptable to God and does it require my own effort?

renewing your mind Will require physical effort just In case someone Is watching talking about that's not true but GOD has done the work In you and now you not only have a desire to do good works but you also have been Equipped.

JESUS IS the VINE and we are members of HIS body/branches receiving sustenance from the VINE Displaying Spiritual fruit and establishing the law.

ALL the law and the prophets Is summed up In one word,Love.

The fruit of the Spirit

Galatians 5:22-23
King James Version


22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
+++
people know If you care about them or not.
A gentle touch and a kind word to someone suffering emotionally can open a door to someone receiving CHRIST.

 

[azamzimtoti]

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth,no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

You are taking this out of context which is apostasy which is no longer holding to the faith, see the previous verses:

(Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit)

(Heb 6:6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. )

(Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.)

Falling away is not falling into sin.

 

[UnderGrace]

We may be at an impasse as we have a fundamental difference in "born from above" along with born of water. Am I correct that your belief is you are born from above when you are baptized? and this is also when you are born of water?

Do you repent only on day of baptism?

Born of water is the physical birth that all humans go through, born from above is the work of the Holy Spirit which brings salvation.

Repentance means a change of mind, away from one thing towards another this happened when I was born from above

I was born from above/regenerated when I received the gift of salvation..... this occured when I believed/faith upon Christ Jesus as my Saviour, believing He took on all my sins and paid a debt that was not His on my behalf.....

.... that all my works were as filthy rags (repented, away from my dead works to Christ), coming into agreement with God (faith) that He made the full payment and declared me innocent of all trespasses.

In that transaction by faith I received and was sealed by Holy Spirit, Justified, Reconciled, Redeemed, Regenerated and Sanctified.

Baptism (the ritual in a church) occurred later as sign/declaration of my rebirth.