Faith is a work.

Nat2019 · Jul 21, 2019

To say we are not saved by works is to say we are not saved by faith because the Bible says faith is a work. John 6:29.

To say we are not saved by works is misleading. There are at least 3 or 4 different kinds of works talked about in the Bible. Some works we are not saved by are the works of the Old Testament law of Moses. Galatians. To try to be justified by these you will fall from Grace. Another kind of work are the ones men boast about ( boastful works) these are works that come from men. That ORIGINATE with men. These are not works of God. Some that come to mind are “playing ball for Jesus” or selling chicken dinners to raise money for a good cause. Did Jesus tell you to do these things? Then they didn’t come from him. And we know they were boastful works because in the scene in the gospels when Jesus turns these people away they say “...but Lord we have Done many mighty works in your name. But he will say depart from me you who work lawlessness ( without law or authority from God.) there are other works mentioned in the Bible ( works of the flesh-Galatians) but the most important one you need to remember is that there are also works of God. These works are those that come from God not men and they are commanded by God and they are approved by God. Faith is this kind of wrk in John 6:29. In fact, the Holy Spirit says this is the work of God that you believe. So you are misleading people to say we are not saved by works at all. Plus you are contradicting yourself if you turn around and say we are saved by faith. Mark 12:24- “you do err not knowing the scriptures.”

Wow this post got 17 dislikes. I am shocked.

mailmandan · Jul 21, 2019

Nat2019 said:

The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. To be "sanctified" is to be "set apart, made holy." Without justification, there is no sanctification. Our ongoing sanctification has no bearing on our justification. That is, even if we don't reach entire sanctification/sinless perfection in this lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1). Those who have been justified by faith have been sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Nat2019 · Jul 21, 2019

mailmandan said:

Hi Mailman you seem pretty strong, about OSAS so nothing I say will be of any benefit to you. It will just be a pointless debate and i am here to help people understand the truths in the bible. I am also willing to learn truths from bible scriptures alone.

My honest intentions with the debate over Judas, wasnt to attack you but to actually help you understand scriptural truths as a (whole) with all scriptures.

But you just disregard the scriptures I put up.

mailmandan · Jul 21, 2019

Nat2019 said:

Why are you shocked? The OP said, "To say we are not saved by works is to say we are not saved by faith because the Bible says faith is a work. John 6:29. To say we are not saved by works is misleading..." His flawed premise results in defining faith "as" works and teaching salvation by faith "and" works. I fully understand why it got 17 dislikes.

Nat2019 · Jul 21, 2019

mailmandan said:

John 6:29 New International Version (NIV)
29 Jesus answered, “(The work of God) is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Not sure maybe the man didnt explain it properly. That's why I just get a scripture.

mailmandan · Jul 21, 2019

Nat2019 said:

I have not disregarded the scriptures you put up at all and I have also properly harmonized scripture with scripture in order help you understand the truths in the Bible as a whole, but you seem very satisfied with what you already believe and are determined to continue to attack OSAS regardless of the truth. It's called indoctrination.

Nat2019 · Jul 21, 2019

Nat2019 said:

mailmandan said:

You can have y

Nat2019 said:

John 6:29 New International Version (NIV)
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Sorry this scripture doesnt say faith is a "work". But we are justified by faith that produces good works.

mailmandan · Jul 21, 2019

Nat2019 said:

The man used John 6:29 to imply that faith is a work, just like any other work, as if faith is just another work in a series of works in a quest to be saved by works. It's a typical argument from those who attend the church of Christ (which that man attends) who teach salvation by faith + works.

Nat2019 · Jul 21, 2019

mailmandan said:

Yes t

mailmandan said:

Ok I don't agree with the church of Christ anyway.

mailmandan · Jul 21, 2019

Nat2019 said:

Amen! John 6:29 is simply a play on words by Jesus when he said, "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?" So Jesus was not saying that believing is just "another work," which would contradict Ephesians 2:8,9. *Note the distinction between faith and works - "saved through faith, not works."

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

Guojing · Jul 21, 2019

Jackson123 said:

If you define faith like that to include following his commands. Then I understand why you don't see the argument as circular.

How about making things simple, faith is believing in Jesus DBR. Works is following what he commands.

Then to you, salvation is faith AND works, like what John Wesley would propose.

Guojing · Jul 21, 2019

PS said:

If you feel that way, then be confident enough to state that you believe salvation is Faith AND works. Don't try to have your cake and eat it.

Beckworth · Jul 21, 2019

Guojing said:

Here is his quote

"But does not God command us to repent also? Yea, and to 'bring forth fruits meet for repentance'--to cease, for instance, from doing evil, and learn to do well? And is not both the one and the other of the utmost necessity, insomuch that if we willingly neglect either, we cannot reasonably expect to be justified at all? But if this be so, how can it be said that faith is the only condition of justification?" God does undoubtedly command us both to repent, and to bring forth fruits meet for repentance; which if we willingly neglect, we cannot reasonably expect to be justified at all: therefore both repentance, and fruits meet for repentance, are, in some sense, necessary to justification.

But they are not necessary in the same sense with faith, nor in the same degree. Not in the same degree; for those fruits are only necessary conditionally; if there be time and opportunity for them. Otherwise a man may be justified without them, as was the thief upon the cross (if we may call him so; for a late writer has discovered that he was no thief, but a very honest and respectable person!) but he cannot be justified without faith; this is impossible. Likewise, let a man have ever so much repentance, or ever so many of the fruits meet for repentance, yet all this does not at all avail; he is not justified till he believes.

How John Wesley reconciled the thief on the cross, in my opinion, is based on this paragraph. Here is how I understand his argument:

Both faith and works are necessary for justification.
But faith is more necessary compared to works. Faith is necessary unconditionally/absolutely.
Works are only necessary in a conditional sense, provided there is time and opportunity to do them.
The thief on the cross had neither the time, nor the opportunity to do works, so he is excused from them.
For the rest of us however, we do not have that excuse, so works become necessary for our justification.

This is a rather ingenious argument, I have to say. At least, I am glad that John Wesley is willing to state that he believes that, for most of us, works are necessary for our justification. So his argument avoids that circularity.

What happens if a man has faith and has the time and opportunity to do good works but doesn’t do them?

Beckworth · Jul 21, 2019

Jackson123 said:

What about a man who has faith and the time and opportunity to do good works but doesn’t do them?

Guojing · Jul 21, 2019

Beckworth said:

Then according to Wesley, he will not be saved.

Nat2019 · Jul 21, 2019

Guojing said:

Instead of Wesley a man? Please quote a scripture

Dont trust in man

Beckworth · Jul 21, 2019

Guojing said:

That seems contradictory to me. Why argue a faith only doctrine if you believe works are so necessary that you can’t be saved without them. ? Don’t get me wrong—I believe in faith wholeheartedly but not faith only. I’m just trying to understand his argument. If good works are absolutely necessary then you don’t have faith only any more.

Beckworth · Jul 21, 2019

Nat2019 said:

I agree. Absolutely. The word of God is the final authority in all things. Book, chapter, and verse.

Guojing · Jul 21, 2019

Beckworth said:

Methodists generally believe that the initial salvation is by faith alone apart from works. But after that, works are necessary for justification. I guess you have not interacted with many of them?

A number of them placed a premium on water baptism, so you will find yourself a home among them

Guojing · Jul 21, 2019

Nat2019 said:

He asked a question using the post I quoted from John Wesley so I am giving him what I interpret him as saying.

Faith is a work.

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