Faith is a work.

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Jan 12, 2019
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But I do not believe a man able to bear fruit (good deed in God standard) without have faith in Jesus

I believe abide in Him mean have faith in Him
Yes, I know where you are coming from, you are using the verse that goes all our good deeds are as filthy rags in God's sight, which is true.

John Wesley is using the layman definition of good deeds, the ones that society in general understand as, to illustrate his point. :)

Its like how some people interpret James chapter 2 as justification before God versus before Man.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Yes, I know where you are coming from, you are using the verse that goes all our good deeds are as filthy rags in God's sight, which is true.

John Wesley is using the layman definition of good deeds, the ones that society in general understand as, to illustrate his point. :)
Yep, he may write for secular people
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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Such arguments are circular and often violate modus tollens. If you are saved, there will be works manifested, is a popular belief held by people who believe that "Salvation is by faith alone, not by work but faith is never alone" But it means the same thing as If there are no works manifested, you are not saved. This second argument, they will reject, but both are logically equivalent.
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Not everyone is a 'worker.' Some very lovely Christians I know simply rejoice in the glory of God and bask in his love.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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Here is his quote

"But does not God command us to repent also? Yea, and to 'bring forth fruits meet for repentance'--to cease, for instance, from doing evil, and learn to do well? And is not both the one and the other of the utmost necessity, insomuch that if we willingly neglect either, we cannot reasonably expect to be justified at all? But if this be so, how can it be said that faith is the only condition of justification?" God does undoubtedly command us both to repent, and to bring forth fruits meet for repentance; which if we willingly neglect, we cannot reasonably expect to be justified at all: therefore both repentance, and fruits meet for repentance, are, in some sense, necessary to justification.

But they are not necessary in the same sense with faith, nor in the same degree. Not in the same degree; for those fruits are only necessary conditionally; if there be time and opportunity for them. Otherwise a man may be justified without them, as was the thief upon the cross (if we may call him so; for a late writer has discovered that he was no thief, but a very honest and respectable person!) but he cannot be justified without faith; this is impossible. Likewise, let a man have ever so much repentance, or ever so many of the fruits meet for repentance, yet all this does not at all avail; he is not justified till he believes.

How John Wesley reconciled the thief on the cross, in my opinion, is based on this paragraph. Here is how I understand his argument:
  1. Both faith and works are necessary for justification.
  2. But faith is more necessary compared to works. Faith is necessary unconditionally/absolutely.
  3. Works are only necessary in a conditional sense, provided there is time and opportunity to do them.
  4. The thief on the cross had neither the time, nor the opportunity to do works, so he is excused from them.
  5. For the rest of us however, we do not have that excuse, so works become necessary for our justification.
This is a rather ingenious argument, I have to say. At least, I am glad that John Wesley is willing to state that he believes that, for most of us, works are necessary for our justification. So his argument avoids that circularity.
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Your argument is not scriptural.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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Yep, he may write for secular people
John Wesley who taught from scripture, was mightily used of God. Regarding Mark 16 Verse 16 which is used by some to teach the necessity of water baptism for salvation, he may have given the following reasons why this is not so.

1. The thief on the cross was not baptized; yet he was assured of being in Paradise with Christ (Luk_23:43).

2. The Gentiles in Caesarea were baptized after they were saved (Act_10:44-48).

3. Jesus Himself did not baptize (Joh_4:1-2)—a strange omission if baptism were necessary for salvation.

4. Paul thanked God that he baptized very few of the Corinthians (1Co_1:14-16)—an impossible thanksgiving if baptism were essential for salvation.

5. Approximately 150 passages in the NT state that salvation is by faith alone. No verse or few verses could contradict this overwhelming testimony.

6. Baptism is connected with death and burial in the NT, not with spiritual birth.

What then does verse 16 mean? It means baptism is not a condition of salvation, but an outward proclamation that the person has accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.


(Believers Bible)
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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If you know many Methodists, they view good works after their faith, as very essential to their salvation. :)
This I am not very sure

To me good work is not make you save, but save make you do good work
 

Nat2019

Active member
Jul 14, 2019
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Hebrews 12:14 New International Version (NIV)
Warning and Encouragement
14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

Without holiness no one will see the Lord.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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John Wesley who taught from scripture, was mightily used of God. Regarding Mark 16 Verse 16 which is used by some to teach the necessity of water baptism for salvation, he may have given the following reasons why this is not so.

1. The thief on the cross was not baptized; yet he was assured of being in Paradise with Christ (Luk_23:43).

2. The Gentiles in Caesarea were baptized after they were saved (Act_10:44-48).

3. Jesus Himself did not baptize (Joh_4:1-2)—a strange omission if baptism were necessary for salvation.

4. Paul thanked God that he baptized very few of the Corinthians (1Co_1:14-16)—an impossible thanksgiving if baptism were essential for salvation.

5. Approximately 150 passages in the NT state that salvation is by faith alone. No verse or few verses could contradict this overwhelming testimony.

6. Baptism is connected with death and burial in the NT, not with spiritual birth.

What then does verse 16 mean? It means baptism is not a condition of salvation, but an outward proclamation that the person has accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.


(Believers Bible)
I totally agree with his teaching on this.

Some people do water baptism and not repent

I have a friend, he is gambler and adulterer, he has some girlfriend and sleep with them.

His mom ask Him to be baptis hope change his behavior

He did baptis, out from the church where the ritual baptism done he went directly to the motel with a prostitute.

The baptism done not even 2 hour ago, now he back to what he did before.

The real baptism or immerse in the name of father, son and Holy Spirit save you, not water that is only symbol.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Ahh that circular argument again, okay then. :)
Is this circular reasoning?

I googling what is circular reasoning look like, seem to me this is not

Logical Form:

X is true because of Y.
Y is true because of X.
Example #1:


I am again abortion, because I am again abortion.

Seem to me my statement below is not argument or reasoning at all

A Good work not produce salvation but salvation produce good work


Seem to me statement A is more like opinion base on my interpretation of the Bible teaching.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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To my knowledge this is circular reasoning

1. Good Logic consist of premise and conclusion

Aristotle give example of deductive logic.

Horse is animal(premise)

There fore the head of horse is the head of animal (conclusion)


circular reasoning premise = conclusion

Circular logic

I am against abortion (premise)

Therefore I am against abortion (conclusion)
 
Jan 12, 2019
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To my knowledge this is circular reasoning

1. Good Logic consist of premise and conclusion

Aristotle give example of deductive logic.

Horse is animal(premise)

There fore the head of horse is the head of animal (conclusion)


circular reasoning premise = conclusion

Circular logic

I am against abortion (premise)

Therefore I am against abortion (conclusion)
Okay, how do you define faith then.

Is it just believing in Jesus's death burial and resurrection, no works inside that definition at all? Or is there some element of work in your definition of faith?
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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To my knowledge this is circular reasoning

1. Good Logic consist of premise and conclusion

Aristotle give example of deductive logic.

Horse is animal(premise)

There fore the head of horse is the head of animal (conclusion)


circular reasoning premise = conclusion

Circular logic

I am against abortion (premise)

Therefore I am against abortion (conclusion)
This is an internet device favoured by those who just wish to argue. Often these people are not born again Christians. A Christian would never argue in this way. Notice the drift away from scripture to things of the world and their own philosophy.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
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I totally agree with his teaching on this.

Some people do water baptism and not repent

I have a friend, he is gambler and adulterer, he has some girlfriend and sleep with them.

His mom ask Him to be baptis hope change his behavior

He did baptis, out from the church where the ritual baptism done he went directly to the motel with a prostitute.

The baptism done not even 2 hour ago, now he back to what he did before.

The real baptism or immerse in the name of father, son and Holy Spirit save you, not water that is only symbol.
Jesus saves. Without him in the forefront of our life we are lost. 👍
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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Ahh that circular argument again, okay then. :)
There are no roundabouts on the highway to God. Look straight into the face of Jesus, and follow Him every step of the way.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
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This is an internet device favoured by those who just wish to argue. Often these people are not born again Christians. A Christian would never argue in this way. Notice the drift away from scripture to things of the world and their own philosophy.
I wasn't meaning you Jackson. :)
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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Okay, how do you define faith then.

Is it just believing in Jesus's death burial and resurrection, no works inside that definition at all? Or is there some element of work in your definition of faith?
To me faith in Jesus is believe or trust to the point just follow all His command, without any reservation.

Is there element of work?

I am not sure for example to praise the Lord, or reading the Bible, that is verb, and it is part of Christian life, man of faith do praise God, but i do not know if we can say, praising the Lord is faith.