K
Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.
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Keep in mind also the first half of the verse (which is saying something in particular in this chpt 17 context):
"When I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me. [...]" (see fuller context)
Some 'salvation through faith alone' proponents teach about works of the law without even knowing.
Look at the following scenarios i don't know which you belong to.
1. Faith teaching
I'm a sinner, the gospel is preached to me and i accept. i now believe that Jesus is Lord and died for my sins.
The preacher gives me a list of sins that i now need to strive and abstain from; because grace is not a ticket to sin, i have to put an effort not to cheat, steal, commit idolatry, adultery, gluttony, pride e.t.c
At the end of the day, the preacher comforts me by saying we are only human and not perfect so we can once in a while fall into sin but we need to keep up our efforts to continue abstaining from sin.
2. Faith teaching
I'm a sinner, the gospel is preached to me and i accept. i now believe that Jesus is Lord and died for my sins.
I have to do nothing because it was all accomplished on the cross. The preacher says i'm human and sin is my nature but nothing to worry about because God has already forgiven me even for the sins that i will commit.
3. Love teaching
I'm a sinner, the gospel is preached to me and i accept. i now believe that Jesus is Lord and died for my sins- but i also believe that i'm commanded to love others. I understand that cheating, lying, stealing, coveting, pride, adultery, gluttony is being disobedient to the command because committing all that is grieving the people around me. But i also know that even if i fall into any of these i can ask for forgiveness from the Lord because i also forgive those around me when they trespass against me.
Scenario 1 & 3 are work based. As much as some may package it into faith alone, it is seriously work based and it doesn't sound right at all. Scenario 2 just doesn't sound right at all. Personally, i go with scenario 3.
Look at the following scenarios i don't know which you belong to.
1. Faith teaching
I'm a sinner, the gospel is preached to me and i accept. i now believe that Jesus is Lord and died for my sins.
The preacher gives me a list of sins that i now need to strive and abstain from; because grace is not a ticket to sin, i have to put an effort not to cheat, steal, commit idolatry, adultery, gluttony, pride e.t.c
At the end of the day, the preacher comforts me by saying we are only human and not perfect so we can once in a while fall into sin but we need to keep up our efforts to continue abstaining from sin.
2. Faith teaching
I'm a sinner, the gospel is preached to me and i accept. i now believe that Jesus is Lord and died for my sins.
I have to do nothing because it was all accomplished on the cross. The preacher says i'm human and sin is my nature but nothing to worry about because God has already forgiven me even for the sins that i will commit.
3. Love teaching
I'm a sinner, the gospel is preached to me and i accept. i now believe that Jesus is Lord and died for my sins- but i also believe that i'm commanded to love others. I understand that cheating, lying, stealing, coveting, pride, adultery, gluttony is being disobedient to the command because committing all that is grieving the people around me. But i also know that even if i fall into any of these i can ask for forgiveness from the Lord because i also forgive those around me when they trespass against me.
Scenario 1 & 3 are work based. As much as some may package it into faith alone, it is seriously work based and it doesn't sound right at all. Scenario 2 just doesn't sound right at all. Personally, i go with scenario 3.
^ EDIT: Forgot to add another thing I wanted to point out.
The words (in that verse ^ [in my last post]) "I was" and "was keeping" are in the "Imperfect Tense" :
Imperfect Tense -
"The name of the new tense, "imperfect", comes from the Latin imperfectus meaning incomplete. This tense is used to describe a continuing, repeated or uncompleted action in the past, i.e., something that "used to happen", "was happening", or "kept happening": "I used to speak", "I was speaking", "I kept speaking [...]The time is almost always in the past and it only occurs in the indicative mood"
https://biblehub.com/text/john/17-12.htm
Again, see the rest of the context (chpt) for how that [idea] "fits" in with the whole of it...
"When I was [imperfect] with them, I was keeping [imperfect] them in Your name, which You have given Me. [...]"
The words (in that verse ^ [in my last post]) "I was" and "was keeping" are in the "Imperfect Tense" :
Imperfect Tense -
"The name of the new tense, "imperfect", comes from the Latin imperfectus meaning incomplete. This tense is used to describe a continuing, repeated or uncompleted action in the past, i.e., something that "used to happen", "was happening", or "kept happening": "I used to speak", "I was speaking", "I kept speaking [...]The time is almost always in the past and it only occurs in the indicative mood"
https://biblehub.com/text/john/17-12.htm
Again, see the rest of the context (chpt) for how that [idea] "fits" in with the whole of it...
"When I was [imperfect] with them, I was keeping [imperfect] them in Your name, which You have given Me. [...]"
K
Karraster
Guest
Sorry, not sure what point you are trying to make.
Holy Father, protect them by Your name, the name You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one. 12While I was with them, I protected and preserved them by Your name, the name You gave Me. Not one of them has been lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
K
Karraster
Guest
Many years I attended a Baptist church that taught #2. good name for it (coincidence?
)Now I find it cringeworthy, have only myself to blame for reading what I believed, instead of believing what I read from scripture.
Lots of people do good works without faith.
If you look at the seperation of the sheep and goats.
There are many who do the works of the sheep but do not have faith.
They do works out of love, meet the needs of others but do not have faith in Jesus.
That I agree with.
Can I just ask though?
I think the fruit of the Holy Spirit in us is what leads us into good works and increases the good works and takes us to a deeper level.
By that I mean we grow more.
But really what are filthy rags or polluted garments. I mean people wore the same clothes every day, most people wore filthy garments. The word for filthy is ‘idim and rags isbagad in Hebrew. The word for rags bagad means a covering hence some sort of garment. But in its Semitic root, it is a covering of one’s treachery. The prophet is saying that all your righteous acts, your acts of justice and good are just deceit, a covering for your treachery. Not only that they are filthy or ‘idim. ‘Idim is a word for a cloth that is used when a woman menstruates. This harkens back to the beginning of the verse where the prophets says that the people are unclean. A woman menstruating was considered to be unclean. Menstruation occurs when the lining of the uterus thickens in preparation for pregnancy. If pregnancy does not occur, the lining is released in what is known as menstruation. The lining really serves no value if there is not reproduction to take place.
Copy and pasted.
My apologies. When you read the following, bear in mind the idea of "name" equaling a certain "authority" (Jesus, in His earthly ministry, was given the authority "to act in His Father's name" ['Your name'/'the name which you have given Me [perfect indicative active]']):
Here's how I see that:
John 17 -
"And I am no longer in the world, and yet they are themselves in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, which You have given Me [perfect indicative active], that they may be one as we are."
Philippians 2:9 - [v.8 speaking of His death, even the death of a Cross]
"9 Therefore God also highly exalted Him,
and granted to Him the name above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in the heavens and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."
Hebrews 2:8 -
"You have put in subjection all things under his feet. For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing unsubject to him. But at present not yet do we see all things having been subjected to him."
[1Cor15:24 - "Then [sequentially] the end" (speaking of the end of the future MK age)]
Hope that helps you see my perspective.
Jesus say if you A man not abide in me he is cast out ............into the fire/hell
John 15
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
How you say abide not for salvation?
^ EDIT (to add to my last post):
John 17:6 -
"I revealed Your name to the men whom You have given [aorist] Me out of the world. They were Yours [imperfect indicative active], and to Me You gave them, and they have kept [perfect indicative active] Your word."
John 17:2 -
"As You gave Him authority over all flesh, so that all whom You have given Him [perfect indicative active], He may give to them eternal life."
John 12:32 - [pertaining to His death (the Cross) and following that point]
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself."
John 17:6 -
"I revealed Your name to the men whom You have given [aorist] Me out of the world. They were Yours [imperfect indicative active], and to Me You gave them, and they have kept [perfect indicative active] Your word."
John 17:2 -
"As You gave Him authority over all flesh, so that all whom You have given Him [perfect indicative active], He may give to them eternal life."
John 12:32 - [pertaining to His death (the Cross) and following that point]
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself."
K
Karraster
Guest
With your emphasis on "name", in a practical sense what does that mean? Character? As in character of the Almighty? Subject to His name=subject to His character IOW?My apologies. When you read the following, bear in mind the idea of "name" equaling a certain "authority" (Jesus, in His earthly ministry, was given the authority "to act in His Father's name" ['Your name'/'the name which you have given Me [perfect indicative active]']):
Here's how I see that:
John 17 -
"And I am no longer in the world, and yet they are themselves in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, which You have given Me [perfect indicative active], that they may be one as we are."
Philippians 2:9 - [v.8 speaking of His death, even the death of a Cross]
"9 Therefore God also highly exalted Him,
and granted to Him the name above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in the heavens and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."
Hebrews 2:8 -
"You have put in subjection all things under his feet. For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing unsubject to him. But at present not yet do we see all things having been subjected to him."
[1Cor15:24 - "Then [sequentially] the end" (speaking of the end of the future MK age)]
Hope that helps you see my perspective.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
You need to read carefully.......and men gather them, and cast them into the fire.
Men do not cast people into lake of fire.
And secondly every time you see fire it does not mean the lake of fire... that is reading into the text something that is not there.
K
Karraster
Guest
he is cast forth as a branch is withered and men gather and burn.
I clearly see the illustration, because I have cleared land and that's what ya do. You get rid of what is not wanted. Cast it away, burn it.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
All the "branches" in this parable are considered "clean". There are no unbelievers considered branches in the parable, and this isn't teaching loss of salvation
He talks about what He does, lifting up branches (verse 2) so they bear fruit and then what happens to those who do not abide at the hands of men verse 6.
Again audience relevance, He is teaching the apostles how to deal with those who fall into rebellion in time that is coming.
Men [not God] gather them and cast them into the fire".
This to connects with the instruction of the church assembly to remove a member for "the destruction of the flesh" (1 Cor. 5:5).
Well, I had said "bear in mind the idea of 'name' equaling a certain 'authority'" [I meant, "name = authority /authority to act in place of another"]
... so "the authority [/name] to act in place of the Father" (when Jesus was here, in His earthly ministry, He "acted" in that capacity... "not My will, but Thine be done" and "I come to do Thy will O God"... etc...)
Circular reasoning I suppose.
Many people over the years gone by and forward will do the same works of love that we do.
The same works we do as a result of faith and out of love.
We can't deny that.
It is an analogy brother
Vine analog to Jesus
Branch analog to human
Fire analog to hell.