Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Noose]

But how do they apply to those born with the NT? 2000 yrs later?

Jesus is our example, so we follow His lead especially in loving others.

 

[UnderGrace]

Have you looked into the Hebrew as to the word translated “filthy rags?”
It’s an interesting term and implies “death” more so than filth. A better translation is that our works/ deeds ( human effort) are considered “dead works” by God.

I did actually read on it once long ago but it did not know this.... very interesting. Thanks!

 

[UnderGrace]

Jesus did many good works even asking the Pharisees of which good work they wanted to stone him for, were these good works born of faith or love?

You tell me

 

[Sipsey]

Why would anyone do works if they didn't have faith? That doesn't make any sense.

Why would anyone witnessing the miracles of Jesus declare Him a heretic?

Human nature ( sin nature) is our greatest enemy, we don’t need Satan to make us sin. Look at what is written about the millennial reign of Jesus, Satan will be chained and sin will still rear its ugly head.

 

[DeighAnn]

Have you looked into the Hebrew as to the word translated “filthy rags?”
It’s an interesting term and implies “death” more so than filth. A better translation is that our works/ deeds ( human effort) are considered “dead works” by God.

Do you think we only find what we want or what we are seeking out, disregarding truths as we go about to justify our own beliefs? Just a question to see why we go in the directions we do.

 

[Noose]

You tell me

Love.

 

[Sipsey]

Do you think we only find what we want or what we are seeking out, disregarding truths as we go about to justify our own beliefs? Just a question to see why we go in the directions we do.

Many have a lifetime of issues with relationships to overcome, false teaching, wrong viewpoints. It takes a while to realign our priorities. As we seek, God will teach us truths in various ways, but never more than we can chew.

The warning is repeated over and over to “beware” of false teachers, who masquerade as sheep, and may even appear as ministers of light. Get in God’s word, study- don’t simply read (it is a command in the Greek) learn from those who’s life reflects forgiveness and God’s love, but keep your nose in His word so you can separate the lies from His truths.

 

[DeighAnn]

Many have a lifetime of issues with relationships to overcome, false teaching, wrong viewpoints. It takes a while to realign our priorities. As we seek, God will teach us truths in various ways, but never more than we can chew.

The warning is repeated over and over to “beware” of false teachers, who masquerade as sheep, and may even appear as ministers of light. Get in God’s word, study- don’t simply read (it is a command in the Greek) learn from those who’s life reflects forgiveness and God’s love, but keep your nose in His word so you can separate the lies from His truths.

Always give it a bit of time, fruit always ends up bearing witness.

 

[UnderGrace]

Many have a lifetime of issues with relationships to overcome, false teaching, wrong viewpoints. It takes a while to realign our priorities. As we seek, God will teach us truths in various ways, but never more than we can chew.

The warning is repeated over and over to “beware” of false teachers, who masquerade as sheep, and may even appear as ministers of light. Get in God’s word, study- don’t simply read (it is a command in the Greek) learn from those who’s life reflects forgiveness and God’s love, but keep your nose in His word so you can separate the lies from His truths.

Well, something is not going right since the basic Gospel is barely available in Christianity.

 

[Sipsey]

Well, something is not going right since the basic Gospel is barely available in Christianity.

It is sad indeed, but history is a good teacher. It is harder to find God in prosperity, than in suffering. There is much suffering to come. I have learned more about God’s love and grace in my decades of trials and tribulations than I ever did in times of plenty.

There are many “sincere” Muslims, LDS, JW’s .................. Sincerety is not the litmus test for truth, it is God’s word. Till one has total confidence in God, instead of themselves, they will struggle.

 

[UnderGrace]

It is sad indeed, but history is a good teacher. It is harder to find God in prosperity, than in suffering. There is much suffering to come. I have learned more about God’s love and grace in my decades of trials and tribulations than I ever did in times of plenty.

Well Sipsey, I have found that I have learned based on how much I was really able to lay down my suppostions and false ideas about God and let Him show me, not so much about life circumstances, I believe that whether life is good or hard God is always there to lead us into truth... we always want to focus on hardships as defining moments in life, but it is not always the case, at least it has not been for me.

The biggest understanding is that I am not defined by my good works or sins as so many like to preach,

I am defined by my status in Christ Jesus and all sin was dealt with at the cross.

When one really understands this and the depth of Gods love and that He is not dealing with us based on performance anymore but on a love relationship it changed my whole perspective.

He loved us while we were yet sinners.... what does that tell us about Him and His grace.

 

[Mii]

Have you looked into the Hebrew as to the word translated “filthy rags?”
It’s an interesting term and implies “death” more so than filth. A better translation is that our works/ deeds ( human effort) are considered “dead works” by God.

Can you post the word in Hebrew?

 

[Jackson123]

Except that if salvation is not secure how do we know if they are works of faith or works for salvation?

Good works only come from the assurance of salvation.

Let me repeat what Martin Luther say

Salvation by faith alone not by work, but faith that save never alone

Now what Jesus say

John 15

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

According to Jesus good work come from abide in Him


Good work in world standard is totally different from good work in God standard

You may say, my non Christian friend help the needy is that good work?

In world standard yes but God have higher standard

Isaiah 64:6 King James Version (KJV)

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.


Good standard of good work is the cross

Willing to die for your enemy like Jesus
Ea
Can we?

Only if we abide in Him we bear fruit. Branch can not bear that high standard fruit of itself


Impossible for a human doing good

The only we can do for our salvation is abide or have faith in Jesus than He produce the fruit for us.

I do not know what do you mean by :

Good work come from assurance of salvation.

All I know is

Good work come when we abide in Him.

Some my sure or convince that he is save, but not


Matt 7

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done emany wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Seem to me people in verse 21 believe that he is save but Jesus say in verse 22 no, you are not save.

 

[UnderGrace]

Let me repeat what Martin Luther say

Salvation by faith alone not by work, but faith that save never alone

Now what Jesus say

John 15

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

According to Jesus good work come from abide in Him


Good work in world standard is totally different from good work in God standard

You may say, my non Christian friend help the needy is that good work?

In world standard yes but God have higher standard

Isaiah 64:6 King James Version (KJV)

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.


Good standard of good work is the cross

Willing to die for your enemy like Jesus
Ea
Can we?

Only if we abide in Him we bear fruit. Branch can not bear that high standard fruit of itself


Impossible for a human doing good

The only we can do for our salvation is abide or have faith in Jesus than He produce the fruit for us.

I do not know what do you mean by :

Good work come from assurance of salvation.

All I know is

Good work come when we abide in Him.

Some my sure or convince that he is save, but not


Matt 7

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done emany wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Seem to me people in verse 21 believe that he is save but Jesus say in verse 22 no, you are not save.

If you believe your salvation can be lost how can you ever be sure of the motive/source of your good works?

Abiding is not for salvation, it is our relationship with Jesus who is the source of our Christian walk.

 

[Sipsey]

Can you post the word in Hebrew?

Isaiah 64:6 (KJV)
[6] But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Filthy-
5708 iddāh: עֵד`ēḏ, עִדָּה A masculine noun referring to filthiness, menstruation.
It indicates a woman's menstrual period or cloth that was considered unclean. In context it is used of God's people whose righteousness has become as a filthy rag (Isa 64:6 [5]).

It may indeed represent something foul, but t’s context was provided by a Jewish woman in conversation years back. She stated that the menstrual cloth represented the fact that there was no pregnancy, “no life in the womb.” Therefore it was not its filth, but what it represented, a lack of life, and therefore no life, or death.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

If you believe your salvation can be lost how can you ever be sure of the motive/source of your good works?

Abiding is not for salvation, it is our relationship with Jesus who is the source of our Christian walk.

This sentence is so close to expressing an obvious connection. Please let me show you

Abiding is our relationship with Jesus who is the source of our Christian walk, which is salvation.

 

[Sipsey]

Well Sipsey, I have found that I have learned based on how much I was really able to lay down my suppostions and false ideas about God and let Him show me, not so much about life circumstances, I believe that whether life is good or hard God is always there to lead us into truth... we always want to focus on hardships as defining moments in life, but it is not always the case, at least it has not been for me.

The biggest understanding is that I am not defined by my good works or sins as so many like to preach,

I am defined by my status in Christ Jesus and all sin was dealt with at the cross.

When one really understands this and the depth of Gods love and that He is not dealing with us based on performance anymore but on a love relationship it changed my whole perspective.

He loved us while we were yet sinners.... what does that tell us about Him and His grace.

I agree. It is not necessary to suffer, in order to learn, but the history of God’s people show that many times it was the only way to get them to see their dependence. I wish I had not been so hard headed, it would have been easier.

The minute one realizes the reason for their suffering, and seeks God’s will, He can then turn their suffering into blessings. He has blessed me abundantly.

 

[UnderGrace]

I agree. It is not necessary to suffer, in order to learn, but the history of God’s people show that many times it was the only way to get them to see their dependence. I wish I had not been so hard headed, it would have been easier.

The minute one realizes the reason for their suffering, and seeks God’s will, He can then turn their suffering into blessings. He has blessed me abundantly.

I am sure God would prefer to deal with us differently but I agree it is our failings that are the problem.

 

[Karraster]

Just being one of the 12 does not necessarily mean that Judas was saved. Apparently, Judas may have believed that Jesus' name has the power to heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons but did not truly believe in His name (John 1:12) and become a child of God, but instead was the son of perdition (John 17:12). Even though Judas may have looked like the real deal to the remaining 11 disciples, Jesus knew his heart and said that he is a devil!" (John 6:70)

I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12...…………... You can not loose that which you never had

 

[Karraster]

There are two different scriptures. Weird

It's not weird when you think about what happens to a body that's been dead in the baking sun...it's not pretty. He hanged himself, possibly fell on his sword which was practical in those days, and then when he hit the ground his guts spilled out. We can only imagine exactly how it happened, but it's not hard to believe both verses are correct accounts. (hanged does not necessarily mean a rope around the neck)