Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[mailmandan]

We can depart from the faith, this scripture shouldn't just be deleted from the bible.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

So ignore John 13:8 and John 6:64-71 and John 13:10-11 and retreat to another passage of scripture that you believe may help support your case better?

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, (that sounds familiar) and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

Obviously you believe that "depart from the faith" means that born again believers depart from saving faith in Christ and lose their salvation. (I find it interesting that NOWHERE in the Bible do we find the specific words, "lose or lost salvation.") The words "the faith" (Greek tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for false religions and cults. That does not prove such people were previously born again. In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

I believe the beginning of such a major departing from the apostolic faith was evidenced as the Roman Catholic church came into power in the early 4th century. The Roman Catholic church forbids its clergy to marry and has other demonic doctrines such as transubstantiation, purgatory, indulgences, papal infallibility, Mary's perpetual virginity, works salvation etc..

 

[Nat2019]

May I ask how old you are?

Why do you ask?

 

[Noose]

Fair enough. Narrowing down nicely.

Not must or else perform good deeds for salvation or must or else practice righteousness but WILL if we are truly born of God. Everything with you is "must or else" because you teach salvation by works. 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. If your motivation for performing good deeds is to obtain salvation, then you have the wrong motivation and the wrong kind of faith.

The statement here is clear, practicing righteousness is as a result of love for others not faith in Christ. Love and faith are two different things- exactly my point. I have no idea why you chose this verse to support salvation by faith alone yet it clearly mentions practicing righteousness through love for others. It defeats your point.

My motivation for loving others is being obedient to God's command.

Faith is accounted for righteousness/God imputes righteousness apart from works/Saved through faith, not works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9). Faith in Christ alone for salvation works just fine and is the truth. You continue to try and "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith - it won't work.

I haven't denied salvation through faith, i dispute salvation through faith alone. The good works of love is a must without which faith alone is dead. James 2

Notice that the apostle Paul said saved through faith "apart from additions or modifications" and NOT saved through faith and works. So its faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE. Created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works follows having been saved through faith.

Doesn't matter, good works are not faith and faith is not good works, so it can't be faith alone. The good works come from love and not our hope and assurance for salvation (faith). You can hope all year round but that hope will not lead you to help the needy, it is the love for fellow humans that will lead you to help the needy.

False. Good works are the fruit of faith and not the essence of faith. It would appear that you basically "define" faith "as" works. This seems to be the very heart of your error which has resulted in perverting the gospel by teaching salvation by works. Roman Catholics promote this same error.

Faith is nothing more than the hope and assurance for salvation- something that is deeply rooted in our hearts. It can not and will never be expressed outwardly as a work (deed) and therefore can never be practiced. The furthest you can do to express your faith is confess it. Only Love can be expressed outwardly through works (deeds) and can be practiced.

Love is not the same thing as faith and love is not a fruit of faith.

Believing in/having faith in/trusting in Christ for salvation results in salvation. (John 3:18; Acts 16:31; Romans 3:24-28 etc..) Doing afterwards is works and we are not saved by works but FOR good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Believers are doing and not sitting BECAUSE they are saved and not in order to become saved. You have it backwards.

I'm happy with this statement because at least it acknowledges works as a major ingredient to salvation, not just sitting there and claiming salvation by faith alone.
The only issue with this statement is that it doesn't explain faith in Christ. Faith is nothing more than hope and assurance of salvation. Hope can not and will never result into deeds or works. Hope is just hope. You can hope and sleep until Jesus returns without doing anything. Your connection of faith and good works fails.

 

[Sipsey]

The concept of spirituality varies among different Christian groups. In some circles the highly vocal person who talks religion continually is thought to be very spiritual; others accept noisy exuberance as a mark of spirituality, and in some churches the man who prays first, longest and loudest gets a reputation for being the most spiritual man in the assembly. Now a vigorous testimony, frequent prayers and loud praise may be entirely consistent with spirituality, but it is important that we understand that they do not in themselves constitute it nor prove that it is present. True spirituality manifests itself in certain dominant desires. These are ever-present, deep-settled wants sufficiently powerful to motivate and control the life. . .
A. W. Tozer

 

[Nat2019]

So ignore John 13:8 and John 6:64-71 and John 13:10-11 and retreat to another passage of scripture that you believe may help support your case better?

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, (that sounds familiar) and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

Obviously you believe that "depart from the faith" means that born again believers depart from saving faith in Christ and lose their salvation. (I find it interesting that NOWHERE in the Bible do we find the specific words, "lose or lost salvation.") The words "the faith" (Greek tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for false religions and cults. That does not prove such people were previously born again. In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

I believe the beginning of such a major departing from the apostolic faith was evidenced as the Roman Catholic church came into power in the early 4th century. The Roman Catholic church forbids its clergy to marry and has other demonic doctrines such as transubstantiation, purgatory, indulgences, papal infallibility, Mary's perpetual virginity, works salvation etc..

Luke 6:13-16 New International Version (NIV)
13 When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: 14 Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, 15 Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

 

[mailmandan]

Does this sound saved to you? Judas was one of the 12.

Matthew 10:5-8 New International Version (NIV)
5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

Just being one of the 12 does not necessarily mean that Judas was saved. Apparently, Judas may have believed that Jesus' name has the power to heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons but did not truly believe in His name (John 1:12) and become a child of God, but instead was the son of perdition (John 17:12). Even though Judas may have looked like the real deal to the remaining 11 disciples, Jesus knew his heart and said that he is a devil!" (John 6:70)

 

[Sipsey]

Why do you ask?

I was wondering if your zeal stems from youth.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

We can depart from the faith, this scripture shouldn't just be deleted from the bible.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

People do this all the time... Recall, "the faith" is "that body of truth" as found in the NT following His death/burial/resurrection/exaltation. Some so-called religious people, after reading it ^ a miniscule bit in their lifetime (without understanding, I might add) ditch it in favor of embracing OT Law, for whatever reason (likely makes them feel "holy" ). This does not require that they were ever "saved"... what they are departing from is "the faith"/"that body of truth" [1Cor15:1-4,14-17, for example] (not personal faith [they've not had that ], in Christ and His finished work [what "that body of truth" is about]).

 

[Nat2019]

So ignore John 13:8 and John 6:64-71 and John 13:10-11 and retreat to another passage of scripture that you believe may help support your case better?

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, (that sounds familiar) and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

Obviously you believe that "depart from the faith" means that born again believers depart from saving faith in Christ and lose their salvation. (I find it interesting that NOWHERE in the Bible do we find the specific words, "lose or lost salvation.") The words "the faith" (Greek tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for false religions and cults. That does not prove such people were previously born again. In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

I believe the beginning of such a major departing from the apostolic faith was evidenced as the Roman Catholic church came into power in the early 4th century. The Roman Catholic church forbids its clergy to marry and has other demonic doctrines such as transubstantiation, purgatory, indulgences, papal infallibility, Mary's perpetual virginity, works salvation etc..

Instead of analyzing it so much just read it for what it is there doesnt need to be a message this long for a passage this small.

 

[Noose]

Those who believe they can lose their Salvation , please answer this...
God chose us before the foundations of the world , He knew who He was calling , so why would He call us only to have us turn our back to Him...

God is the starter and finisher of our faith , maybe those who believe salvation can be lost should check to see if they are in the faith , and see if God has really called you , or are you just working through your own efforts towards heaven , and that is why you are not secure in Christ...xox...

"Many are called but few are chosen..".

Jesus
33AD

 

[Nat2019]

I was wondering if your zeal stems from youth.

Thanks I am not that young heading towards 30. What about you

 

[Sipsey]

Thanks I am not that young heading towards 30. What about you

Near 70

 

[Nat2019]

People do this all the time... Recall, "the faith" is "that body of truth" as found in the NT following His death/burial/resurrection/exaltation. Some so-called religious people, after reading it ^ a miniscule bit in their lifetime (without understanding, I might add) ditch it in favor of embracing OT Law, for whatever reason (likely makes them feel "holy" ). This does not require that they were ever "saved"... what they are departing from is "the faith"/"that body of truth" [1Cor15:1-4,14-17, for example] (not personal faith [they've not had that ], in Christ and His finished work).

I actually dont believe in going back to the old law from the OT. I am not a jew.

 

[Nat2019]

Near 70

Wow. They're are alot of different age groups on here.

 

[Nat2019]

I actually dont believe in going back to the old law from the OT. I am not a jew.

Go and preach this to the Jews. I dont think any are on here

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The concept of spirituality varies among different Christian groups. In some circles the highly vocal person who talks religion continually is thought to be very spiritual; others accept noisy exuberance as a mark of spirituality, and in some churches the man who prays first, longest and loudest gets a reputation for being the most spiritual man in the assembly. Now a vigorous testimony, frequent prayers and loud praise may be entirely consistent with spirituality, but it is important that we understand that they do not in themselves constitute it nor prove that it is present. True spirituality manifests itself in certain dominant desires. These are ever-present, deep-settled wants sufficiently powerful to motivate and control the life. . .
A. W. Tozer

Oooo… can you tell me which of his books this is taken from? I have a few, and would like to know (if I might have it). Thanks.

 

[Nat2019]

"Many are called but few are chosen..".

Jesus
33AD

Then why were Judas and Solomon chosen?

 

[DeighAnn]

Doom and Gloom, yes there is.

What if there is an actual "correct" way of being saved? What if saying the words and doing the "deed" isn't really all it takes?

What if "Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the Word of God", and we must "study to show ourselves approved" are verses that are true? Is there a wrong being saved that no one ever mentions? because these verses are also found, are they a warning skimmed over as "non applicable" or never seem to come up? "I never knew you" or you will be that wedding guest without the right garment and get kicked out into utter darkness, Or you will be one of the many are called when few are chosen, or the virgin without enough oil in their lamp, or one of the ones who will be deceived and take the mark, or the other places that THE BIBLE says it is a narrow path? When we stand before God it is alone, an individual taking of responsibility for the choices we chose to make. Who said, or what influenced you will be of none effect. You chose your path. You made the ultimate decision.

"Seek". Just because the gift of Eternal Life is offered as an option, are requirements to acquire and keep? If the Word of God is powerful and quick (living) and sharper than any two edged sword dividing the soul and spirit.....discerns the thoughts and intents....you better find out if "Once saved always saved" is the kind you possess.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Some are going to tell you this means that and this means this, if what they "tell" you it means is wrong, and you just go with it and don't go finding it out your self, that is all on you.
Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

You know what be worse than reading this here? Never reading it anywhere or you never telling someone who needs to hear it because sometimes things aren't said, because they are hard to say.

This may not be for you in any way shape or form, but it is very valid for someone thinking I am good, when ....

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I actually dont believe in going back to the old law from the OT. I am not a jew.

I was just giving that as example... anything that negates/sets aside "that body of truth" ("THE faith" ... following [and including] His death/burial/resurrection/exaltation" and what that accomplished)

 

[mailmandan]

Instead of analyzing it so much just read it for what it is there doesnt need to be a message this long for a passage this small.

Reading it for what it truly says or for what YOU want it to say? I go a little deeper than your "on the surface" biased interpretations.