Faith is a work.

[Beckworth]

Salvation is through Jesus Christ :-

(Act 16:30-31) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

(John 10:9) Jesus said, “I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and find pasture … I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.”

(John 11:25) Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life, he who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.”

(John 3:15-16) “… whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

(John 3:36) “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

(John 5:24) “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death to life.”

(John 6:35) And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.”

(John 6:51) “I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

(John 8:12) Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

(John 8:24) “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

One of my favorite passages on faith is Hebrews 11:6- “without faith it is impossible to please him”. These are all very good scriptures and very true. But if by these scriptures you are implying that belief is ALL you have to do then you are wrong. Just in case you hold to a “faith only” doctrine, please note that the word “0nly” or “alone” is not in a single one of these scriptures. I am afraid most people have been so indoctrinated with “faith only” that they cannot read a passage on faith without mentally ADDING THE WORDS ALONE OR ONLY in there. God could not have been any plainer when He wrote in James 2:24- “NOT BY FAITH ONLY” Hence we have Mark 16:16- He that believes AND is baptized shall be saved”. God wants you to understand that there is MORE TO SALVATION than faith. Is faith important? Absolutely. But so is baptism. Is repentance important, yes. Is confession important, yes.

Psalms 119:160 in the American Standard Version says that the SUM OF YOUR WORD IS TRUTH. or as the NKJ says the “entirety” of your word is truth. This means that you don’t have God’s TRUTH on a subject until you know All God has said about that subject. So when it comes to the subject of salvation, you need to open your eyes to ALL God has said about salvation. Couple that information with God approved examples showing how people were saved in the Bible and you will have all that God wants you to know about that subject. I know this is so because 2Timothy 3:16 tells us that All scripture is inspired of God and is capable of instructing us in righteousness and is complete thoroughly furnishing us unto every good work.

Colossians 2:8 warns that you not let someone Cheat you by the philosophies of men and the traditions of this world. God warns us not to SUBTRACT FROM HIS WORD ( Revelation 22:19). Men have certainly subtracted BAPTISM FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS from his word. But if you do take things away from his word, He says He will take away your name from the book of life and from the Holy City if God. This is serious business, folks.

 

[UnderGrace]

Just as an aside, does anyone happen to know what the forum record is for unanimous disagreement?




View attachment 199584

And it is still increasing

 

[garee]

Is this discussion about the role of baptism in the remission of sins?

It is interesting to see John the Baptists ministry was water baptism for the remission of sins.
So it seemed the actual baptism cleansed one from sins not just as a sign of repentance.

4 And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
Mark 1:4

Jesus asked the question was this baptism from God or man.
It suggests this baptism is an important step on the road to redemption, more than just a sign.

We can easily downplay these things instituted by God as of less importance, than that which God
has made important.

It is like Naaman who was told to wash in the Jordan. If God decrees something simple to do, we
are not wise to not just do it, to fulfil His word. Amen.

John Baptist according to John 3:25 is communing in regard to the ceremonial use of water. It had to do with a old testament ceremonial law used as a shadow of Christ to come as our High priest after the manner of Melcizedek . John as the last Levite priest prepared the way for the ministry of the Son of man, Jesus from the tribe of Judah .

Somehow it would appear in most cases the foundation got lost and was replaced with some works righteousness's. . . some sort of the doctrine of evidence of remission of sins. Rather than a evidence that desire to serve as a member of the new priesthood of believers sent out as Ambassadors with the gospel of Christ. . no longer under the tribe of Levi.

I would say back to the base (Exodus) or foundation of the doctrine.

Exodus 29:4 And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.

After Naaman received the Holy Spirit by believing the word of God (faith not seen) .He also is shown having a desire to bring his new tongue, the gospel of salvation into the world as a member of the priesthood of believers. .And then Naaman also could be used to officiate in a ceremonial law also. It is why they questioned John … . . What was Jesus of the tribe of Judah doing officiating as if he had something to do with the kingdom of priest? John answer . as the Holy Spirit through John he in effect replied: God is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul desires (mind you own business)

That I believe is the atmosphere of the doctrine. Ceremonial laws as shadows . Some try to squeeze substance out .

Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.John3:25-27

 

[PS]

One of my favorite passages on faith is Hebrews 11:6- “without faith it is impossible to please him”. ........ I am afraid most people have been so indoctrinated with “faith only” that they cannot read a passage on faith without mentally ADDING THE WORDS ALONE OR ONLY in there. God could not have been any plainer when He wrote in James 2:24- “NOT BY FAITH ONLY” Hence we have Mark 16:16- He that believes AND is baptized shall be saved”. God wants you to understand that there is MORE TO SALVATION than faith. Is faith important? Absolutely. But so is baptism. Is repentance important, yes. Is confession important, yes.

Psalms 119:160 in the American Standard Version says that the SUM OF YOUR WORD IS TRUTH. or as the NKJ says the “entirety” of your word is truth. This means that you don’t have God’s TRUTH on a subject until you know All God has said about that subject. So when it comes to the subject of salvation, you need to open your eyes to ALL God has said about salvation. Couple that information with God approved examples showing how people were saved in the Bible and you will have all that God wants you to know about that subject. I know this is so because 2Timothy 3:16 tells us that All scripture is inspired of God and is capable of instructing us in righteousness and is complete thoroughly furnishing us unto every good work.

Colossians 2:8 warns that you not let someone Cheat you by the philosophies of men and the traditions of this world. God warns us not to SUBTRACT FROM HIS WORD ( Revelation 22:19). Men have certainly subtracted BAPTISM FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS from his word. But if you do take things away from his word, He says He will take away your name from the book of life and from the Holy City if God. This is serious business, folks.

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. (Jas 2:23-24 KJV)

O.K. So we are saved by faith and become a "Friend of God" like Abraham, but we are justified by works. So what is justification? Here is what one of my commentaries says:-

James presents here the reverse side of the coin of faith. In effect, he argues strongly against the idea that a man can be saved if it does not radically transform his life and conduct. Thus he makes plain the truth that there can be no true faith if there is no evidence to prove that faith. He does not argue that we are saved by works, but that works demonstrate the existence of genuine faith. This is consistent with Paul's teaching that the believer is a new creation (2 Cor 5:17) and as such will manifest a new kind of character and behaviour which will reflect the life of the Lord Jesus.

(So yes, saving faith manifests itself in a changed life. Abraham and Rahab, proved their faith by what they did. If there are no works, then that persons faith is dead or as James says in chapter 2 verse 17, "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." So, let our light shine out for Jesus in all we say and do. It will anyway if our faith is true.

 

[Jackson123]

I believe when Paul say salvation by faith, not by work, he attack people that believe salvation happen when you make animal sacrifice, or donate your money, or wash your hand before eat.

Not in the context Paul saw Christian love each other, help each other than Paul not agree and say

He salvation not by work, you do not need love each other or help each other, let cheat each other or kill each other.

Similar to matin Luther, he say salvation by faith alone, when he saw the church teach salvation by purchase forgiveness certificate, hejs not agree, and say salvation by faith, to express his disagrees. Not in the context

He you are welcome to kill each other because salvation not by work.

I believe we need to consider the context so we have correct understanding what it mean salvation not by work

 

[fredoheaven]

You can still go ahead and get water Baptised if you want but it’s no longer a requirement for anything.

I scratched my head here. I, think it it is you that requires water baptism can saved base of your faulty interpretation of Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 . And why not get water baptized as an act obedience, if so, then you are not consenting to the wholesome words of Jesus Christ as Paul says. The waters of baptism being part of the GC will be preached to every people, to all nations even to the end of the world.
1 Timothy 6:3

“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;”

 

[Guojing]

I scratched my head here. I, think it it is you that requires water baptism can saved base of your faulty interpretation of Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 . And why not get water baptized as an act obedience, if so, then you are not consenting to the wholesome words of Jesus Christ as Paul says. The waters of baptism being part of the GC will be preached to every people, to all nations even to the end of the world.
1 Timothy 6:3

“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;”

I am scratching my head with you too. If you guys are so confident that water baptism was never a requirement for salvation for even the Jews in the past, then you are already not consenting to the word of what Jesus said in Mark 16:16.

To me, it seems you are patronizing Mark 16:16 by thinking, "Jesus did not meant what he said there, but let us just get water baptized anyway, just in case Jesus really did command that in that verse but I am very sure he did not meant what he said".

Perhaps you will be clearer if you could address this question "What do you think will happen if Christians nowadays don’t get water baptised?"

 

[dcontroversal]

Abel, and all the OT saints, could not rely on Jesus's DBR to be saved. Paul didn't even exist then.

Genesis 3:15 and you really do miss much.....

God shedding blood and covering Adam and Eve's shame

Abel offering a LAMB without blemish or spot

Geesh man.....open your eyes...Jesus said the WHOLE BOOK TESTIFIES OF HIM

You guys are a joke!!!

 

[Guojing]

Genesis 3:15 and you really do miss much.....

God shedding blood and covering Adam and Eve's shame

Abel offering a LAMB without blemish or spot

Geesh man.....open your eyes...Jesus said the WHOLE BOOK TESTIFIES OF HIM

You guys are a joke!!!

You like to anticipate revelation, that is why you are shooting your mouth off like that. Genesis 4:7 speaks specifically why Cain was rejected and Abel accepted.

 

[garee]

I am scratching my head with you too. If you guys are so confident that water baptism was never a requirement for salvation for even the Jews in the past, then you are already not consenting to the word of what Jesus said in Mark 16:16.

To me, it seems you are patronizing Mark 16:16 by thinking, "Jesus did not meant what he said there, but let us just get water baptized anyway, just in case Jesus really did command that in that verse but I am very sure he did not meant what he said".

Perhaps you will be clearer if you could address this question "What do you think will happen if Christians nowadays don’t get water baptised?"

Water can get a person wet.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.Mark 16:16

He that taste of the word, believing God, and then fall away to the wayside to be renewed again and again were never baptized by the Holy Spirit. It would not represent the good ground the unseen baptism .

Better things accompany those who are baptized by the unseen Holy Spirit .He promises them he will not forget their good works they offered towards his name.. No such thing as a sign gift. The sign is they were baptized by the Holy Spirt .No outward sign needed to those who walk by faith ..

 

[dcontroversal]

You like to anticipate revelation, that is why you are shooting your mouth off like that.

Harldy.....and you should take a few years, actually study the bible and quit peddling ignorance....what I said was valid truth....just get right, accept it and be honest dude!

 

[Guojing]

Harldy.....and you should take a few years, actually study the bible and quit peddling ignorance....what I said was valid truth....just get right, accept it and be honest dude!

Genesis 4:7 speaks specifically why Cain was rejected and Abel accepted.

 

[Guojing]

Water can get a person wet.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.Mark 16:16

He that taste of the word, believing God, and then fall away to the wayside to be renewed again and again were never baptized by the Holy Spirit. It would not represent the good ground the unseen baptism .

Better things accompany those who are baptized by the unseen Holy Spirit .He promises them he will not forget their good works they offered towards his name.. No such thing as a sign gift. The sign is they were baptized by the Holy Spirt .No outward sign needed to those who walk by faith ..

Ephesians 4:5 made it clear that we now receive the Holy spirit baptism by faith in Jesus. Water baptism is no longer in the picture for us.

 

[fredoheaven]

Mark 16:15&16 - JESUS SAID to go into all the world and preach THE GOSPEL, HE THAT BELIEVES AND IS BAPTIZED WILL BE SAVED. So , I’m sorry, you are wrong. Jesus clearly makes the GOSPEL the subject of the Great Commission. And part of that Gospel is baptism.

You know, if I knew I was speaking to those closest to me on earth for the last time, I would talk about the things that were the most important to me. Wouldn’t you? I mean you wouldn’t waste precious time talking about things that weren’t important. Jesus is talking to his disciples for the last time. These are his last words before he leaves them to go back to heaven. That makes these words in his last moments here on earth very important. And in his parting words he gives the command to be baptized.of all the things he could have mentioned, baptism. Is included in this special moment. If it was that important to him. Shouldn’t it be important to you? Please open your eyes and heart to the scriptures and to what Jesus is telling you. It’s not hard. It’s so simple if you will just let your heart accept what he is really telling you. 🙏🏼🙏🏼

Mark 16: 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Hi Beckworth,

You just give your best opinion here but not making sense. Baptism is not a part of the Gospel! Belief is our response to the Gospel and water baptism is our response to our belief in the Gospel. This gospel must be preach to every creature which his disciples did. Paul also did preached this gospel being related to the good news of salvation base on the death, burial and the resurrection of Christ and it has nothing to do with water baptism.

! Corinthians 15: 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Moreover, Paul separated by giving contrast of water baptism from the gospel.

1 Corinthians 1: 16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Well, i was thinking of another gospel you are presenting as Paul by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said:

Galatians Chapter 1

5 To whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Clearly, the act of water baptism is not part of the saving gospel that Paul preached.

 

[fredoheaven]

I am scratching my head with you too. If you guys are so confident that water baptism was never a requirement for salvation for even the Jews in the past, then you are already not consenting to the word of what Jesus said in Mark 16:16.

To me, it seems you are patronizing Mark 16:16 by thinking, "Jesus did not meant what he said there, but let us just get water baptized anyway, just in case Jesus really did command that in that verse but I am very sure he did not meant what he said".

Perhaps you will be clearer if you could address this question "What do you think will happen if Christians nowadays don’t get water baptised?"

Mark 16
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Here is the logic of this verse

If I am SAVED then I am not DAMNED
If I am not DAMNED, therefore I am SAVED

So if a person believe not, shall that person be damned? Yes! John 3:18a, 36a prove this point.

John 3:18a He that believeth on him is not condemned:
John 336b and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

If a person believes shall he/she saved? Yes! John 3:15-16; 3:36 proves this point.

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.”
John 3:36a He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:

If I believe and not baptized shall I be damned? No! 1 John 5:11-12 proves this point and perhaps this is one of what you are asking of me. This tell us then that if a person do not believe though he/she was baptized shall still be damned. So water baptism in the case of Mark 16:16 cannot save ever since.

But why a saved person needs to be baptized? It's really an act obedience to show that you really believe. Of primarily, it is our identification that we are already "in Christ". It is a natural response for the saved believers. Christ says, teaching them to oserved all things of what Christ taught. They are not to earned one salvation. It is fruit of our salvation. If Mid Acts is true to Paul then they have to consent with Paul says, to the wholesome words of Jesus Christ found in Matthew 28 or in the other gospel books.

 

[Guojing]

Mark 16
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Here is the logic of this verse

If I am SAVED then I am not DAMNED
If I am not DAMNED, therefore I am SAVED

So if a person believe not, shall that person be damned? Yes! John 3:18a, 36a prove this point.

John 3:18a He that believeth on him is not condemned:
John 336b and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

If a person believes shall he/she saved? Yes! John 3:15-16; 3:36 proves this point.

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.”
John 3:36a He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:

If I believe and not baptized shall I be damned? No! 1 John 5:11-12 proves this point and perhaps this is one of what you are asking of me. This tell us then that if a person do not believe though he/she was baptized shall still be damned. So water baptism in the case of Mark 16:16 cannot save ever since.

But why a saved person needs to be baptized? It's really an act obedience to show that you really believe. Of primarily, it is our identification that we are already "in Christ". It is a natural response for the saved believers. Christ says, teaching them to oserved all things of what Christ taught. They are not to earned one salvation. It is fruit of our salvation. If Mid Acts is true to Paul then they have to consent with Paul says, to the wholesome words of Jesus Christ found in Matthew 28 or in the other gospel books.

Unless you believe that Jesus is committing the logical fallacy of "affirming the consequent", you cannot equate saved to the negation of damned.

 

[fredoheaven]

Unless you believe that Jesus is committing the logical fallacy of "affirming the consequent", you cannot equate saved to the negation of damned.

Mark 16
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned

Hi Goujing,

Let’ see the word “and” and how it has been used in the English Bible, KJV in particular.

• Per Wicktionary says: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/and

And

Introducing a clause or sentence which follows on in time or consequence from the first.

If this is true, then your dilemma has been solved. Baptism therefore is a consequence from believing the gospel.

• The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary Vol. 1 p.69 says of the word “and” means introducing a consequence…OE therefore this has to do with a result of faith.

 

[Guojing]

Mark 16
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned

Hi Goujing,

Let’ see the word “and” and how it has been used in the English Bible, KJV in particular.

• Per Wicktionary says: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/and

And

Introducing a clause or sentence which follows on in time or consequence from the first.

If this is true, then your dilemma has been solved. Baptism therefore is a consequence from believing the gospel.

• The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary Vol. 1 p.69 says of the word “and” means introducing a consequence…OE therefore this has to do with a result of faith.

Personally I have no dilemma regarding Mark 16:16 since I am a mid acts dispensationalist. Mark 16:16 was for the Jews. Now, its Ephesians 4:5 where we receive the Holy Spirit baptism by faith. Water baptism has been phased out.

But if you feel that you should get water baptized because you think Jesus commanded it, feel free to do so, as I said.

The only problem I see in having that thinking is that, quite a number of old church folks on their death beds, when you ask them what makes them confident about being saved, quite a number will reply to you, "Because I have been water baptized!"

That is kinda scary if you ask me.

 

[fredoheaven]

Personally I have no dilemma regarding Mark 16:16 since I am a mid acts dispensationalist. Mark 16:16 was for the Jews. Now, its Ephesians 4:5 where we receive the Holy Spirit baptism by faith. Water baptism has been phased out.

But if you feel that you should get water baptized because you think Jesus commanded it, feel free to do so, as I said.

The only problem I see in having that thinking is that, quite a number of old church folks on their death beds, when you ask them what makes them confident about being saved, quite a number will reply to you, "Because I have been water baptized!"

That is kinda scary if you ask me.

Then you are still wrong here that Mark 16:16 is for the Jews. Jesus says it is to every creature. While you profess to have faith in Christ for salvation in contrast with Beckworth because you are Mid acts dispensationalist but that is a poor excuse in making sense of the scripture in Mark 16:16, nevertheless, if you are true to Apostle Paul's by grace through faith and that not of yourselves then you are saved. Only the system you carry is a hype. Me too is a dispensationalist but not MAD.

God bless

 

[Guojing]

Then you are still wrong here that Mark 16:16 is for the Jews. Jesus says it is to every creature. While you profess to have faith in Christ for salvation in contrast with Beckworth because you are Mid acts dispensationalist but that is a poor excuse in making sense of the scripture in Mark 16:16, nevertheless, if you are true to Apostle Paul's by grace through faith and that not of yourselves then you are saved. Only the system you carry is a hype. Me too is a dispensationalist but not MAD.

God bless

Are you Acts 2 dispy then?