Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

oyster67 · Jul 18, 2019

This is true for those who accept the atonement and abide in the vine.

JimC · Jul 18, 2019

It does not say they died twice, It says they are doubly dead (not only spiritually, But they have fallen from the state of Grace, they heard the word of truth, that could have saved them, and they rejected it. That had it in their grasp and let it go. But nice try
Can the bible contradict itself? How can God say one thing, then go against his own promises?

Oh and PS, Peter denied Jesus 3 times, Did Jesus deny him? Or welcome him with open arms?

JimC · Jul 18, 2019

LW97 said:

Was Judas saved? Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven. Judas was included in those that had been sent out and returned unto Jesus. Jesus told them all that their names were written down in Heaven. Judas backslid; after the betrayal of Jesus he went out and hang himself. Did he have eternal security?

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 18, 2019

Karraster said:

Regarding Philippians 3:8-14 [keeping its context of "the Christlike MIND" in the section of Scripture bracketed by 2:2,3,5 on one end, and 3:15,16,19 on the other end (re: 'mind/minded')]:

..."all of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained." Philippians 3:15-16

[quoting from Sir Robert Anderson's book "Forgotten Truths"]

"Appendix 4 - Philippians 3:8-14 [for CONTEXT]

"PHILIPPIANS 3:8-141 NOTE CHAPTER 7

"IF the commonly received exegesis of Philippians 3:8-14 be correct, we are faced by the astounding fact that the author of the Epistle to the Romans and of the 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians -- the Apostle who was in a peculiar sense entrusted with the supreme revelation of grace -- announced when nearing the close of his ministry that the resurrection was not, as he had been used to teach, a blessing which Divine grace assured to all believers in Christ, but a prize to be won by the sustained efforts of a life of wholly exceptional saintship.
"Nor is this all. In the same Epistle he has already said, "To me to live is Christ, and to have died is gain"; whereas, ex hypothesi, it now appears that his chief aim in life was to earn a right to the resurrection; and that death, instead of bringing gain, would have cut him off before he had reached the standard of saintship needed to secure that prize! For his words are explicit, "not as though I had already attained."

"Here was one who was "not a whit behind the chiefest Apostles"; who excelled them all in labours and sufferings for his Lord, and in the "visions and revelations" accorded to him; whose prolonged ministry, moreover, was accredited by "mighty signs and wonders by the power of the Spirit of God." And yet, "being now such an one as Paul the aged," [it is wrongly suggested] he was in doubt whether he should have part in that resurrection which he had taught all his pagan Corinthian converts to hope for: for to them it was he wrote the words, "we shall all be changed."
"Such is the exposition of the Apostle's teaching in many a standard commentary. And yet the passage which is thus perverted reaches its climax in the words, "Our citizenship is in heaven, from whence we are looking for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation that it may be conformed to the body of His glory."
" "Our citizenship is in heaven" here is the clew to the teaching of the whole passage. The truth to which his words refer is more clearly stated in Ephesians 2:6 - God has "quickened us together with Christ, and raised us up with Him, and made us sit with Him in the heavenly places in Christ." More clearly still is it given in Colossians 3:1-3: "If then ye were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is seated on the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are on earth. For ye died, and your life is hid with Christ in God."

"Ephesians and Colossians, be it remembered, were written at the same period of his ministry as Philippians; and in the light of these Scriptures we can read this chapter aright. To "win Christ" (ver. 8), or to apprehend, or lay hold of, that for which he had been laid hold of, or apprehended (ver. 12); or in other words, to realize practically in his life on earth what was true of him doctrinally as to his standing before God in heaven -- this is what he was reaching toward, and what, he says, he had not "already attained."
"The "high calling" of ver. 14 is interpreted by some to mean Christ's calling up His own to meet Him in the air (a blessing assured to all "who are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord"); but this is not in keeping with the plain words -- God's high calling in Christ Jesus, i.e. what God has called us (made us) to be in Christ.
"If this passage refers to the literal resurrection, then the words "not as though I had already attained must mean that, while here on earth, and before the Lord's Coming, the Apostle hoped either to undergo the change of ver. 21, or else to win some sort of saintship diploma, or certificate, to ensure his being raised at the Coming. These alternatives are inexorable; and they only need to be stated to ensure their rejection.

"One word more. If the Apostle Paul, after such a life of saintship and service, was in doubt as to his part in the resurrection, no one of us, unless he be the proudest of Pharisees or the blindest of fools, will dream of attaining it. In fact we shall dismiss the subject from our minds."

--Sir Robert Anderson, Forgotten Truths, Appendix 4, pgs 145-147

http://articles.ochristian.com/article12455.shtml

[end quoting; bold, underline, and brackets mine]

____________

So, Philippians 3:8-14 (esp vv.11-14,15) is referring to (as he says), "to realize practically in his life on earth what was true of him doctrinally as to his standing before God in heaven"... that is, "in the here and now"

dcontroversal · Jul 18, 2019

oyster67 said:

Abiding in the vine is indicative of bearing fruit, not remaining saved.....!!

Lafftur · Jul 18, 2019

Back in Peter and Paul's day, the great controversy was if believers still needed to be circumcised. There was a great divide over circumcision.

Paul said neither circumcision or uncircumcision profits a believer - it really didn't matter because circumcision was under the old covenant.

Yeshua/Jesus was circumcised on the 8th day, by so doing He fulfilled the human requirement in all males to be circumcised. In His Body He fulfilled ALL the Law for us. There's no need to argue over works for salvation anymore - He fulfilled them ALL.

Grace is sufficient now. The Law of Grace. The great exchange - His Blood for our sins and His Righteousness for our filthy rags.

Why are we arguing? We need to be rejoicing!! What manner of love is this???!!! WOW!

Why has God done this for us? We don't deserve it......

Yet, He did it.

God wants us to focus on knowing Him and loving Him. Let's stop wasting time arguing and spend time getting to know Him more and spend time loving Him. FOCUS on Him is the key!

Everybody.........FOCUS!!! Can you see Him........

dcontroversal · Jul 18, 2019

Lafftur said:

Do you believe we are in a spiritual war?

What does earnstly contend for the faith mean?

What does fight the good fight mean or stand prepared as for battle?

Why are we commanded to armor up with the whole armor of God and take up the sword of the Spirit?

Why does Paul constantly oppose and hammer false gospels and or error?

I really like you, but in a war with eternal consequences the soldiers MUST COME OUT OF THE TRENCHES and engage the enemy.......

Note what Paul states...and he is not talking about those in the world, but rather those that portray themselves as believers. All that preach false gospels ARE ENEMIES of the Cross and true believers!!

For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ

We can love people while absolutely hating and opposing what they stand for at the same time

Guojing · Jul 18, 2019

Lafftur said:

Back in Peter and Paul's day, the great controversy was if believers still needed to be circumcised. There was a great divide over circumcision.

Paul said neither circumcision or uncircumcision profits a believer - it really didn't matter because circumcision was under the old covenant.

Yeshua/Jesus was circumcised on the 8th day, by so doing He fulfilled the human requirement in all males to be circumcised. In His Body He fulfilled ALL the Law for us. There's no need to argue over works for salvation anymore - He fulfilled them ALL.

Grace is sufficient now. The Law of Grace. The great exchange - His Blood for our sins and His Righteousness for our filthy rags.

Why are we arguing? We need to be rejoicing!! What manner of love is this???!!! WOW!

Why has God done this for us? We don't deserve it......

Yet, He did it.

God wants us to focus on knowing Him and loving Him. Let's stop wasting time arguing and spend time getting to know Him more and spend time loving Him. FOCUS on Him is the key!

Everybody.........FOCUS!!! Can you see Him........

Do you think during the Tribulation, people will likewise be arguing over whether taking the mark of the beast would void your salvation by faith alone?

Nehemiah6 · Jul 18, 2019

Lafftur said:

There is a world of difference between "arguing" (which is carnal) and reproof and correction (for which we have been given the Scriptures as noted in 2 Tim 3:16,17).

The apostle John said that many deceivers have entered into the world (and into churches) and spiritual deception ad confusion have increased tremendously since then.

Satan is the enemy of truth and his primary weapon is deception through false prophets, false apostles, false teachers, and false brethren. This is sad but true.

Satan is extremely keen to have people believe that salvation can be lost. Which reflects on the fact that God could not even configure a perfect salvation through Christ.

Karraster · Jul 18, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

Regarding Philippians 3:8-14 [keeping its context of "the Christlike MIND" in the section of Scripture bracketed by 2:2,3,5 on one end, and 3:15,16,19 on the other end (re: 'mind/minded')]:

..."all of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained." Philippians 3:15-16

[quoting from Sir Robert Anderson's book "Forgotten Truths"]

"Appendix 4 - Philippians 3:8-14 [for CONTEXT]

"PHILIPPIANS 3:8-141 NOTE CHAPTER 7

"IF the commonly received exegesis of Philippians 3:8-14 be correct, we are faced by the astounding fact that the author of the Epistle to the Romans and of the 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians -- the Apostle who was in a peculiar sense entrusted with the supreme revelation of grace -- announced when nearing the close of his ministry that the resurrection was not, as he had been used to teach, a blessing which Divine grace assured to all believers in Christ, but a prize to be won by the sustained efforts of a life of wholly exceptional saintship.
"Nor is this all. In the same Epistle he has already said, "To me to live is Christ, and to have died is gain"; whereas, ex hypothesi, it now appears that his chief aim in life was to earn a right to the resurrection; and that death, instead of bringing gain, would have cut him off before he had reached the standard of saintship needed to secure that prize! For his words are explicit, "not as though I had already attained."

"Here was one who was "not a whit behind the chiefest Apostles"; who excelled them all in labours and sufferings for his Lord, and in the "visions and revelations" accorded to him; whose prolonged ministry, moreover, was accredited by "mighty signs and wonders by the power of the Spirit of God." And yet, "being now such an one as Paul the aged," [it is wrongly suggested] he was in doubt whether he should have part in that resurrection which he had taught all his pagan Corinthian converts to hope for: for to them it was he wrote the words, "we shall all be changed."
"Such is the exposition of the Apostle's teaching in many a standard commentary. And yet the passage which is thus perverted reaches its climax in the words, "Our citizenship is in heaven, from whence we are looking for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation that it may be conformed to the body of His glory."
" "Our citizenship is in heaven" here is the clew to the teaching of the whole passage. The truth to which his words refer is more clearly stated in Ephesians 2:6 - God has "quickened us together with Christ, and raised us up with Him, and made us sit with Him in the heavenly places in Christ." More clearly still is it given in Colossians 3:1-3: "If then ye were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is seated on the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are on earth. For ye died, and your life is hid with Christ in God."

"Ephesians and Colossians, be it remembered, were written at the same period of his ministry as Philippians; and in the light of these Scriptures we can read this chapter aright. To "win Christ" (ver. 8), or to apprehend, or lay hold of, that for which he had been laid hold of, or apprehended (ver. 12); or in other words, to realize practically in his life on earth what was true of him doctrinally as to his standing before God in heaven -- this is what he was reaching toward, and what, he says, he had not "already attained."
"The "high calling" of ver. 14 is interpreted by some to mean Christ's calling up His own to meet Him in the air (a blessing assured to all "who are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord"); but this is not in keeping with the plain words -- God's high calling in Christ Jesus, i.e. what God has called us (made us) to be in Christ.
"If this passage refers to the literal resurrection, then the words "not as though I had already attained must mean that, while here on earth, and before the Lord's Coming, the Apostle hoped either to undergo the change of ver. 21, or else to win some sort of saintship diploma, or certificate, to ensure his being raised at the Coming. These alternatives are inexorable; and they only need to be stated to ensure their rejection.

"One word more. If the Apostle Paul, after such a life of saintship and service, was in doubt as to his part in the resurrection, no one of us, unless he be the proudest of Pharisees or the blindest of fools, will dream of attaining it. In fact we shall dismiss the subject from our minds."

--Sir Robert Anderson, Forgotten Truths, Appendix 4, pgs 145-147

http://articles.ochristian.com/article12455.shtml

[end quoting; bold, underline, and brackets mine]

____________

So, Philippians 3:8-14 (esp vv.11-14,15) is referring to (as he says), "to realize practically in his life on earth what was true of him doctrinally as to his standing before God in heaven"... that is, "in the here and now"

Thanks for the follow up. And this last part, notice household of Caesar, Paul was in prison. Always one of my favorite books, and he speaks about being content whatever the circumstance, wonderful.
21Greet every saint in Christ Jesus.
The brothers with me greet you.
22All the saints greet you, and especially those of the household of Caesar.
23The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.a

dcontroversal · Jul 18, 2019

Guojing said:

Saved people will not take it...the bible is clear....your argument is moot Gongshow!

Guojing · Jul 18, 2019

dcontroversal said:

So it means the same thing as "If you take the mark, you are not saved".

Is that what you are also implying?

Karraster · Jul 18, 2019

Guojing said:

I just wanted to say, I really admire your patience for a fellow poster who can't seem to read your name correctly. It is a lesson to me for sure, about humility.

Jackson123 · Jul 18, 2019

dcontroversal said:

John 15:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

If branch not bear fruit Will cast into fire/hell

So It is talking about salvation

Guojing · Jul 18, 2019

Karraster said:

He is obviously doing it deliberately to provoke, but as I have said to another of his target, treat that as a price of debating over the Internet.

You cannot control what others do, you can only control how you respond.

Miri · Jul 18, 2019

I’m new to this conversation and I haven’t read the other posts due to the
length of the thread.

I think that for a true born again believer they cannot lose their salvation.
The reason being it that is it God who started the work in them, God who
continues the work in them and God who keeps them. If we had to
keep ourselves we would indeed be lost.

A testimony for you which is a great example of God keeping a hold onto us
rather than the other way around.

My elderly aunt who is now 84, has stage 4 COPD, on oxygen 24/7.
Moderate dementia
Chronic kidney disease
Plus other things.

She became a Christian many years ago but then had what use to be called
a nervous breakdown and stopped going to church. Over the years I have
often wondered about her salvation, she did continue to believe for sometime but
then got to where she refused to read the bible, said she couldn’t take it in.
Refused to pray, refused to let me tell her about the church services, and often
said things that made me wonder if she had given up on God.

Then she got older and sick including the dementia.
One night the other year I heard her crying in the middle of the night and got up
to check on her. She was sobbing her heart out and saying she was sorry for all the
trouble she had caused and wanted me to pray with her. Then she asked God for
forgiveness and said sorry to him.

It broke my heart and I was crying with her, but also ever so blessed to see her
first hand commit her life back to God.

Then I got up then next day and the confusion of dementia had returned.
I truly believe that God allowed her a moment of clarity and led her back to Him.
It was all God and certainly not either my aunts or my doing.

Nat2019 · Jul 18, 2019

UnderGrace said:

Great picture, totally argree

.

Nat2019 · Jul 18, 2019

Guojing said:

Yes you cant control how others respond

Lafftur · Jul 18, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Yes, we are in spiritual warfare - everyday - contending for souls - our own and others.

Let's fight from the Heavenly Realm. Every General knows the high ground is best. Go higher. We are seated with Christ in Heavenly places.

dcontroversal said:

Determined focus, not letting Yeshua/Jesus out of our sight for one millisecond - keeping Him earnestly and constantly lifted high so He can draw all men to Himself. It's not about us and our views - it's about Yeshua/Jesus.

dcontroversal said:

It's the good fight of faith.

We are to be sober, vigilant, on guard, knowing our adversary is prowling around looking for an opportunity to take our faith and the faith of others, especially new believers:

- fight off those fowls of the air that come to take the seed of the Word of God from us - naysayers, scoffers,

- remove the stones from our hearts so that the Word of God can take deep root in us to find water and not die when persecution comes,

- cut back and root out the briers and thistles the cares of this life that can choke the Word of God in us, and

- prepare good ground for the Word of God to flourish in - keep it tilled, plowed, full of nutrients, watered - focus and guard our hearts.

We are to encourage others to do the same and help them to do so, not force them.

Prepared for battle?..........well, sometimes all we need is a slingshot and 5 smooth stones because the battle is the Lord's.

dcontroversal said:

Yes, God has given us the armor we need, the shield and the sword - these are all spiritual armaments. We do not fight in the Physical Realm. You know soldiers have to mature and train - it takes time to learn how to use these armaments correctly. The Holy Spirit is our Drill Sargent - He matures and trains us and as fellow soldiers we teach each other, too.

Yeshua/Jesus went about destroying the works of the enemy by doing good works - being kind, meeting needs of others, etc.

dcontroversal said:

His zeal for God. Just as he was zealous for the Law of Works, he became zealous for the Gospel of Yeshua/Jesus - the Law of Grace.

dcontroversal said:

I've never been in the military but, as a mom, there are times I come out of the trenches and engage the enemy of wrong behavior or if someone is hurting my child so, I understand engaging the enemy but, I do need to have wisdom and discernment as to "How to" engage the enemy.

Sometimes "full throttle" is not going to work and sometimes it does. Trust me, the "full throttle" passion is always there but, wisdom and discernment won't let me throw the baby out with the bath water.

I really like you, too and we've been known to butt heads on a few occasions. I've enjoyed them all! lol!

dcontroversal said:

Paul was once the enemy of the cross of Christ. He understood both sides and it grieved him tremendously.

dcontroversal said:

It's not what they stand for but, rather the blindness and bondage they're in. I don't want to beat a blind man or one that is bound. I'd much rather loose them and set them free but, they have to let me help them.

Pride can never receive truth. Wisdom knows this and will avoid the proud but give grace (the gospel) to the humble. God has to deal with our pride and humble us before we can hear and receive the Truth of God's Word. Engaging a prideful person will only lead to strife.

UnderGrace · Jul 18, 2019

Lafftur said:

Well, I thought that was exactly what we were doing and there is only one HIM and ONE TRUTH and some truths are foundational.

Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

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