PRE- MID- POST TRIBULATION.... JESUS RETURN TO EARTH FOR HIS BRIDE!

garee · Jul 13, 2019

I was offering what I believe was the prescribed way to search for it as it is written . From what some call a Amil position. . . different interpretation tools same Jesus. . not a salvation issue

I did not think you were offering us to guess what camp of eschatology, and PennEd offering came close to your choice. But more of how can we hear and understand the of signified language. That is why I offered the prescription (2 Corinthians 4:18.) focus on faith the unseen reasoning not of our selves.

It would appear the Holy Spirit used the opening words of the book as a introduction, as to the kind of inspired words "signified" found in various parables as to their meaning. .

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV)The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and "signified it" by his angel unto his servant John:

Leastamongmany · Jul 13, 2019

garee said:

I have no prescribed answer,except my issue is Pre or Mid. I do believe He will not suffer us to endure the wrath of God! I know that we today are seemingly going thru trials and some seem extremely hard for those that go to thru them! I do not want to tell someone I believe " this or that" without the backing of the word! I also realize that it is more important to lead others to know of His love and saving Grace! This is a personal quest,for I can not abide just having what man may randomly teach! I too have searched out these same scriptures and maybe it is not given to me to know for a surety,but to just live by faith and walk as close in His word as I can! Thank you for your response!🙏🙏🙏

garee · Jul 13, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

Three of the major problems regarding the misunderstanding of the timing of the gathering of the church is:

1). Not recognizing that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth as being two separate events.
2). Not differentiating between common trials and tribulation vs. God's coming wrath
3). Not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming, unprecedented wrath
4). Not understanding the underlying principal that Christ already experienced God's wrath on behalf of all believers.

PennEd described the differences succinctly between the two events in post #13. Prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, the wrath of God must take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. It is shortly after the seventh bowl has been poured out that Jesus returns to the earth. Since Jesus already experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer satisfying it completely, then believers will not and cannot be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, which begins at the opening of the first seal.

There are those who believe that God is going to preserve the church on the earth during the time of His wrath, which brings us to number 3). God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses bring, will be the worst time in history, with the majority of the earths population being decimated and all human government being dismantled (See Dan.2:31-45, Rev.6 thru 18). With just the results of the 4th seal and the 6 trumpet alone, (which are the only two places that give a percentage of the fatalities), a fourth and a third of the earths population will be killed, which is well over half of the earths population and that within just the first 3 1/2 years. This is not including the fatalities resulting from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor the fatalities resulting from the seven bowl judgments. This is all supported by what Jesus said:

"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."

In the scripture above, Jesus is basically saying that as a result of God's wrath/tribulation, that if it was allowed to go on any longer, no one would be left alive on the earth.

Beginning from the middle of the seven years, scripture states that the beast will be given 42 months (last 3 1/2 years) to make war against the saints and to conquer them. If the church was here on the earth as some claim, then they would have to be those saints spoken of in Rev.13:5-7, which would demonstrate that God would not be protecting the church during that time, for many of them are beheaded. Fortunately, this is not in reference to the church, but the great tribulation saints.

Those who place the church on the earth during the time of God's wrath will make the comment that the apostles and the first century church were not protected or removed, but were persecuted and killed for their faith. The problem with this thinking is that they did not suffer God's wrath. They are not recognizing the difference between the common trials and tribulation which come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness, which Jesus said all believers would experience vs. God's direct, unprecedented, coming wrath. It is the latter that believers are not appointed to suffer.

Regarding God's wrath and believers not being exposed to it, see the following scriptures:

Romans 5:9 - "Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!"

1 Thess.1:10 - "They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

1 Thess.5:9 - "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

In continuing with their claim that the church will be on the earth, some have claimed that the above mentioned wrath is referring to the wrath at the great white throne judgment the result being the lake of fire. However, believers are not appointed to suffer any of God's wrath, whether the unprecedented wrath coming upon this earth, nor the ultimate wrath at white throne judgment. And that, as previously stated, is because Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath on behalf of every believer, otherwise it would be a double payment. Then we have the following promise:

Revelation 3:10 - "Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you out of the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

The word "ek" is translated as "out of" meaning that for those who endure patiently, they will be kept out of that hour of trial, not thru it or during, but keep out of the time of God's wrath. And that by being changed and caught up according to His promise.

In addition to all of this, I would also add that within Revelation chapters 1 thru 3, the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" is used 19 times. Then from Rev.4:1 onward, the word ekklesia/church never appears again within the narrative. In Rev.4:1 where John hears that voice that sounds like a trumpet, which was identified in Rev.1:10 as being Jesus' voice, is saying "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this!" I truly believe that this is a prophetic allusion to where the church is called up, which again is substantiated by the fact that the word ekklesia/church no longer appears from that time forward. The next time the church is alluded to is in Rev.19:6-8 as the bride. And the next time we actually see the word church again is in Rev. 22:16 in the epilog.

Further more, Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of the second coming when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. Prior to that in Rev.19:6-8 we see the bride/church receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. Then in Rev.19:14, we see the bride/church wearing her fine linen and riding on white horses following the Lord out of heaven. Consequently, the bride/church would already have to be in heaven in order to follow the Lord out of heaven. This is also supported by the following:

"They (the beast and the ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

The conclusion is that, because Jesus took upon himself God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely, then we cannot be exposed to God's wrath. And since God's wrath takes place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, then believer's must be removed prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath. This will all be in fulfillment of the Lord's promise in John 14:1-31 and Thessalonian 4:13-17.

The wrath of God is being carried out as his death sentence on his corrupted creation mankind. Romans 1 informs us it is being revealed from heaven. Men are dying being buried in the clay as ashes in the wind., Their temporal corrupted spirits returns to the father who gave it. . . . subject to His law …. they violated it and the clay return to the Potters field never to rise to new spirt life forevermore.

Romans1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness

.All in the twinkling of the eye. The last day has come. Not last daze. Six times in the book of John the holy Spirit confirms both events simotaniiously on the last day . . . the sun and the moon no longer needed. The veil on the bride is lifted. The letter of the law will not enter in, it will not rise to condemn .

Further more, Rev.19 reveals that those who are not sealed in the forehand(mind) and hand (will) but bear the mark of natural unconverted mankind. . . that do not buy the gospel truth. . but rather sell it for lying signs and wonders a false miracles . .Jesus calls them a evil generation as the generation of natural man after Adam and not after Christ the spiritual seed . They seek after signs and lying wonders and not after prophecy .

Rev.19 :20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

They should of bought the truth of the gospel. like Esau the soup guy they saw no value in the things of God not seen, they sell it for the things of this life.

Lord humble our hearts. I could use to lose 30 or so soup/sugar pounds...

garee · Jul 13, 2019

Leastamongmany said:

Thanks for the reply

Its things like wrath as to the differences of degrees that I explore. Like a extreme example. limbo a lesser or purgatory a major neither having a end or what kind of suffering . The Catholic take the wrath of God first and foremost by concluding Jesus offered a unknow remnant of grace . Giving Mary the fullness of it alone. therefore dividing grace a person automatically divides wrath. fear of dying. Its not the kind of fear that comes by walking by a faith not of our selves.

The wrath that is being reveled is the same wrath that came when the glory of God left. The moment he saw false pride in his most beautiful messenger lucifer who clothed himself with flesh (a lying spirit in a serpent clothes like a wolf in sheepskin died .The glory of faith departed . Day4 the temporal time keepers (Sun and Moon) began its work. We are witnessing the work of corruption mankind dying. The final will not be until death goes up in smoke never to rise to condemn again. Not one jot or tittle of the letter of the law will enter the new order.

dcontroversal · Jul 13, 2019

One coming, not two....those that divide the 1 event into two separate events are missing the mark

Was
Is
IS TO COME

ALL THINGS must jive with ONE BODY PRESENCE or it is false. Paul and Peter tie the Day of the Lord, the Day of Christ and the Day of God into ONE DAY with three different aspects.

Jesus is LORD, CHRIST AND GOD and ALL three days COMMENCE at the 7th and final trump in Revelation.

2nd Errror....to deny the fact that the ANNOUNCED WRATH of God is found AT THE 7TH TRUMP BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD and NOT at the 6th seal when LOST MEN PERCEIVE the wrath of GOD HAS ARRIVED.

3rd proof

The parable of the wheat and tares has GOD BEGINNING TO DEAL WITH THE TARES FIRST BEFORE HE GATHERS THE WHEAT INTO HIS BARN......this is the exact OPPOSITE of what pretribbers peddle.

Read the book and then jive the imminent return with the bible.....too many holes and fallacies in that view.

Ahwatukee · Jul 13, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

Three of the major problems regarding the misunderstanding of the timing of the gathering of the church is:

1). Not recognizing that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth as being two separate events.
2). Not differentiating between common trials and tribulation vs. God's coming wrath
3). Not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming, unprecedented wrath
4). Not understanding the underlying principal that Christ already experienced God's wrath on behalf of all believers.

PennEd described the differences succinctly between the two events in post #13. Prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, the wrath of God must take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. It is shortly after the seventh bowl has been poured out that Jesus returns to the earth. Since Jesus already experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer satisfying it completely, then believers will not and cannot be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, which begins at the opening of the first seal.

There are those who believe that God is going to preserve the church on the earth during the time of His wrath, which brings us to number 3). God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses bring, will be the worst time in history, with the majority of the earths population being decimated and all human government being dismantled (See Dan.2:31-45, Rev.6 thru 18). With just the results of the 4th seal and the 6 trumpet alone, (which are the only two places that give a percentage of the fatalities), a fourth and a third of the earths population will be killed, which is well over half of the earths population and that within just the first 3 1/2 years. This is not including the fatalities resulting from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor the fatalities resulting from the seven bowl judgments. This is all supported by what Jesus said:

"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."

In the scripture above, Jesus is basically saying that as a result of God's wrath/tribulation, that if it was allowed to go on any longer, no one would be left alive on the earth.

Beginning from the middle of the seven years, scripture states that the beast will be given 42 months (last 3 1/2 years) to make war against the saints and to conquer them. If the church was here on the earth as some claim, then they would have to be those saints spoken of in Rev.13:5-7, which would demonstrate that God would not be protecting the church during that time, for many of them are beheaded. Fortunately, this is not in reference to the church, but the great tribulation saints.

Those who place the church on the earth during the time of God's wrath will make the comment that the apostles and the first century church were not protected or removed, but were persecuted and killed for their faith. The problem with this thinking is that they did not suffer God's wrath. They are not recognizing the difference between the common trials and tribulation which come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness, which Jesus said all believers would experience vs. God's direct, unprecedented, coming wrath. It is the latter that believers are not appointed to suffer.

Regarding God's wrath and believers not being exposed to it, see the following scriptures:

Romans 5:9 - "Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!"

1 Thess.1:10 - "They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

1 Thess.5:9 - "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

In continuing with their claim that the church will be on the earth, some have claimed that the above mentioned wrath is referring to the wrath at the great white throne judgment the result being the lake of fire. However, believers are not appointed to suffer any of God's wrath, whether the unprecedented wrath coming upon this earth, nor the ultimate wrath at white throne judgment. And that, as previously stated, is because Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath on behalf of every believer, otherwise it would be a double payment. Then we have the following promise:

Revelation 3:10 - "Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you out of the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

The word "ek" is translated as "out of" meaning that for those who endure patiently, they will be kept out of that hour of trial, not thru it or during, but keep out of the time of God's wrath. And that by being changed and caught up according to His promise.

In addition to all of this, I would also add that within Revelation chapters 1 thru 3, the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" is used 19 times. Then from Rev.4:1 onward, the word ekklesia/church never appears again within the narrative. In Rev.4:1 where John hears that voice that sounds like a trumpet, which was identified in Rev.1:10 as being Jesus' voice, is saying "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this!" I truly believe that this is a prophetic allusion to where the church is called up, which again is substantiated by the fact that the word ekklesia/church no longer appears from that time forward. The next time the church is alluded to is in Rev.19:6-8 as the bride. And the next time we actually see the word church again is in Rev. 22:16 in the epilog.

Further more, Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of the second coming when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. Prior to that in Rev.19:6-8 we see the bride/church receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. Then in Rev.19:14, we see the bride/church wearing her fine linen and riding on white horses following the Lord out of heaven. Consequently, the bride/church would already have to be in heaven in order to follow the Lord out of heaven. This is also supported by the following:

"They (the beast and the ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

The conclusion is that, because Jesus took upon himself God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely, then we cannot be exposed to God's wrath. And since God's wrath takes place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, then believer's must be removed prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath. This will all be in fulfillment of the Lord's promise in John 14:1-31 and Thessalonian 4:13-17.

Good day Waggles!

Out of all that scriptural information, what do you disagree with?

Nehemiah6 · Jul 13, 2019

Leastamongmany said:

Had you understood the purpose and the significance of the Tribulation and how it is connected to the reign of the Antichrist you would have no issue. It has nothing to do with the Church. And technically there is no such thing as *mid-tribulation*. More precisely the middle of the 70th week of Daniel divides the Tribulation (3 1/2 years) from the Great Tribulation (3 1/2 years less a few months for the sake of the elect).

Leastamongmany · Jul 13, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

that is what these forum are for....bible forums! To discuss the word,examine the scriptures,bring out a better understanding from those whom have allowed the Holy Spirit to led them! Just because someone can quote,tie together,make THEIR belief the forefront of the issue doesn't always mean it is correct! Your way of expressing is offensive,I nor anyone else needs you or anyone to beat us over the head. This is my LAST response to whatever you have to share! 🙏🙏🙏

cv5 · Jul 13, 2019

I have been reading the various replies and contributions and I see that a key crucial point has been missed.

That being the fact that in the time of the Tribulation ALL PREACHING AND EVANGELISTIC EFFORTS are being conducted
wholly and solely by ISRAEL. By the 144,000 to begin with and of course the Two Witnesses. All of them Israelites. To allow for this a pre-tribber would have to declare that the Great Commission has been surreptitiously terminated, the throngs of Christians abandoning their posts. There is no scriptural support for this either.

Indeed, the Church is nowhere to be found post Rev ch 3, which alone should be enough to convince the most ardent post-tribber.

Furthermore, the fact that only Israelites are noted as carrying on the task of preaching utterly wrecks the Preterist 70 AD crowd BTW.

The Church has a unique identity, destiny, priority, station, and timeframe. Upon their removal, Israel and the gentiles have their own, one that is meted out after the Harpazo event.

Let us not forget that the phenomenon of being "caught up" into the heavens to meet the Lord in the air, is absolutely unique to the Church and no other group.

One other thing...the only way that anybody enters the Kingdom in the time of the Tribulation is by being beheaded or martyred. Any remaining are left to repopulate the earth. Everyone else is judged and killed and is awaiting damnation at the GWTJ.
There is no requirement for persons in the Church age to be killed immediately upon conversion.

https://biblehub.com/greek/726.htm

No....the time of the Tribulation is absolutely unique. The Church is not mixed up in any of that juncture in Gods plan of Salvation.

MattforJesus · Jul 14, 2019

Leastamongmany said:

It is a post tribulation resurrection, and that is because God is love, and will not give up on the world until they give up on Him, so He has to allow the world to go against the truth all the way to going against Israel, which then He shall defeat the world, and save Israel.

When the world goes against the saints, and scatters their power, then the saints that are alive on earth will be gathered unto Christ, then God's wrath is poured upon the world leading up to the battle of Armageddon where they will attack the Jews, and go against Jerusalem.

That is when God said that His fury shall come up in His face, and He will defeat the world, and punish the world for their sins and iniquities against Him, and save Israel.

That is why the resurrection is at the end of the 7 years period, for God has to allow them to go against the truth, which is the saints for they represent the truth, and then go against the Jews which they will be saved.

God likes to operate by the reasoning that nobody has an excuse, so He does not want to cut it short but wait until they go against the whole truth before putting them down, which the last step for them in trying to get rid of all people that oppose them is the Jews, and when they go against them they have no excuse.

If it is cut short and they do not persecute the saints being pre-7 years resurrection there is an excuse, for they can say we did not go against the saints, and if cut short concerning the Jews they can say we did not go against them.

The man Jesus caused the world to not have an excuse for He made it to heaven, and the saints shall judge the world, and they will not have an excuse for the saints made it to heaven.

This is how it will go down.

Israel 70 weeks, 490 years, to make an end of sins, and as a nation accept Jesus, which the 70 weeks started before Jesus came for they were not in the truth, and the Roman Empire ruling there is testimony to that.

69 weeks has passed, 1 week to go, 7 years, the time that God causes all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom, and brings Israel to the truth.

Israel blinded in part, accepts Old Testament for the majority, but not the New, until salvation no longer available to the Gentiles, and so all Israel shall be saved.

New age movement interpretation of the Bible, based on the occult, and evolution, and interprets all religions that way, and the time will come that they will not endure sound doctrine, but want to hear the Bible according to their own lusts, evolving through nature to be greater, and spiritual.

New age movement is the future for this sinful world, and the beginning of the end for the wicked, and will pave the way to the beast kingdom.

Paul said the saints cannot be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first which is at the end of the first three and one half years, when the transgressors are come to the full, which is the condition of the world in response to the Gospel, which they hindered it from being preached, for they say it is not truth, and a hate crime, and going against their peace plan, and the man of sin claims to be God to the world, then the saints can be gathered unto Christ.

But the beast makes war against the saints, and they are given in to his hands for three and one half years.

New Age Christ will establish peace in the Middle East, all Jews will go to Israel, Jews will go back to animal sacrifices, and split Jerusalem with the Palestinians.

The nations will come together and try to establish peace on earth.

The world split in to 10 sections with a leader in each section, new age movement unified religious system, with all religions included interpreted by them as being the truth.

Repentance, and salvation are still offered during the first three and one half years.

The 10 horn kingdom failed at obtaining peace because of a terrible war where one third of the world perishes, and they accept the man of sin as the solution to have peace.

When they take the mark of the beast repentance, and salvation no longer offered, and the fulness of the Gentiles have come in, and then God will turn Israel to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.

Israel is protected for the 7 years period from physical attack, war.

At the end of the last three and one half years Israel as a nation are in the truth, and the saints that remain alive on earth is gathered unto Christ.

Which the Bible says that there are souls in heaven that ask Jesus when He will avenge them, and He said when the saints are with them that come out of tribulation.

God's wrath is poured upon the world, and the world attacks Jerusalem, the Jews, and Jesus comes back with all the saints, and defeats the world, and saves Israel.

It cannot be a pre-7 years resurrection.

Repentance, and salvation are still available to the world for the first three and one half years, so the saints will remain on earth to represent the truth.

Paul said when they say Peace and safety that the saints will not be deceived by it knowing it is not the operation of God, and when they say Peace and safety it starts the 7 years period, and the saints are on earth.

Which Jesus said He will deliver the saints in the truth from the temptation that shall come upon all the world, to try all them that dwell on earth, which there can only be one temptation that can come upon the whole world at the same time, when they say Peace and safety, for will they get with God, or follow the world, and will the hypocrites stay with God and get right, or will they follow the world.

Which multitudes, multitudes, in the valley of decision, for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

Also in Daniel when they shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people then all things are finished, which is for three and one half years, the last half, and then shall come the end when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, when He shall put down all rule, authority, and power.

As soon as the resurrection happens Jesus is right on them pronto to put them down, but if it is pre-7 years period why do they continue for 7 years which they would not.

Jesus does not put them down until the 7 years period is done, so the resurrection is at the end of the 7 years, for as soon as the saints are gathered unto Christ He goes right against them pronto.

So it is not a pre-7 years, for the saints are on earth when the nations come together, and it starts the 7 years period, and repentance, and salvation are still available to the world, and Jesus does not put the world down until at the end of the 7 years period, and as soon as the resurrection happens He goes right after them, so that is when the saints are resurrected.

Some say that the saints will not go through the 7 years tribulation period, but the tribulation period is the last three and one half years, and the tribulation is not for the world, but for the saints.

Some say that because they think God's wrath is in the 7 years period, but it is not.

God is allowing the world to have their way for the 7 years period to rebel against Him, and persecute the truth, so He will not go against them until the 7 years period is done.

Repentance, and salvation is still available for the first three and one half years, so God will not go against them at that time.

And the beast has power to continue for three and one half years, after he claims to be God in the middle of the 7 years period, and he has power to rule over all nations, kindreds, and tongues, which he can only have that power if God allows him to rule, so God will not go against them at that time.

And the trumpets is not the wrath of God, but they are troubles, disasters, so that the world will turn to God, and at the end of the 6th trumpet God said the world will still not repent of their sins, and turn to Him, so He gives them the man of sin to rule over them.

In other words despite the problems that occur on earth, and terrible situations, the world will not turn to God as the solution for peace, but keep trying to achieve peace by their own efforts.

An example is WW1, set up League of Nations to try to work in the world to solve their problems, did not turn to God, WW2, set up United Nations, did not turn to God, and that pattern will continue until WW3, Islam against the world, the 6th trumpet, did not turn to God, but accepted the New Age Christ as the solution to have peace, so God allows them to be deceived by him.

The gathering of the saints unto Christ will happen at the end of the 7 years period, and then the wrath of God against the world, and then the battle of Armageddon where Jesus defeats the world, and saves Israel, and then the millennial reign as Jesus fulfills the role of perfect King on earth, and then the law is fulfilled, and heaven and earth shall pass away, and a new heaven, and earth, where sin has never been, and sin will never be, and the angels, and saints shall not remember anything prior to that, nor shall it come to mind, for the old heaven and earth is associated with sin, and rebellion.

Guojing · Jul 14, 2019

azamzimtoti said:

Once the Jewish nation rejected Christ as their Messiah about one year after the Crucifixion, the Tribulation was suppose to have come upon them. Luke 13:8.

You have to view those verses you quoted in the light of the prophecy.

However, God the Father revealed the biggest plot twist in the history of scripture, with the grace dispensation mystery thru Paul. Ephesians 3:9.

That Tribulation was postponed, to usher in his grand plan to save the Gentiles, independent of the Jews.

dcontroversal · Jul 14, 2019

cv5 said:

I have been reading the various replies and contributions and I see that a key crucial point has been missed.

That being the fact that in the time of the Tribulation ALL PREACHING AND EVANGELISTIC EFFORTS are being conducted
wholly and solely by ISRAEL. By the 144,000 to begin with and of course the Two Witnesses. All of them Israelites. To allow for this a pre-tribber would have to declare that the Great Commission has been surreptitiously terminated, the throngs of Christians abandoning their posts. There is no scriptural support for this either.

Indeed, the Church is nowhere to be found post Rev ch 3, which alone should be enough to convince the most ardent post-tribber.

Furthermore, the fact that only Israelites are noted as carrying on the task of preaching utterly wrecks the Preterist 70 AD crowd BTW.

The Church has a unique identity, destiny, priority, station, and timeframe. Upon their removal, Israel and the gentiles have their own, one that is meted out after the Harpazo event.

Let us not forget that the phenomenon of being "caught up" into the heavens to meet the Lord in the air, is absolutely unique to the Church and no other group.

One other thing...the only way that anybody enters the Kingdom in the time of the Tribulation is by being beheaded or martyred. Any remaining are left to repopulate the earth. Everyone else is judged and killed and is awaiting damnation at the GWTJ.
There is no requirement for persons in the Church age to be killed immediately upon conversion.

https://biblehub.com/greek/726.htm

No....the time of the Tribulation is absolutely unique. The Church is not mixed up in any of that juncture in Gods plan of Salvation.

I would like to see a verse that states the 144,000 witness to the world during the tribulation.....verbatim!

Leastamongmany · Jul 14, 2019

MattforJesus said:

It is a post tribulation resurrection, and that is because God is love, and will not give up on the world until they give up on Him, so He has to allow the world to go against the truth all the way to going against Israel, which then He shall defeat the world, and save Israel.

When the world goes against the saints, and scatters their power, then the saints that are alive on earth will be gathered unto Christ, then God's wrath is poured upon the world leading up to the battle of Armageddon where they will attack the Jews, and go against Jerusalem.

That is when God said that His fury shall come up in His face, and He will defeat the world, and punish the world for their sins and iniquities against Him, and save Israel.

That is why the resurrection is at the end of the 7 years period, for God has to allow them to go against the truth, which is the saints for they represent the truth, and then go against the Jews which they will be saved.

God likes to operate by the reasoning that nobody has an excuse, so He does not want to cut it short but wait until they go against the whole truth before putting them down, which the last step for them in trying to get rid of all people that oppose them is the Jews, and when they go against them they have no excuse.

If it is cut short and they do not persecute the saints being pre-7 years resurrection there is an excuse, for they can say we did not go against the saints, and if cut short concerning the Jews they can say we did not go against them.

The man Jesus caused the world to not have an excuse for He made it to heaven, and the saints shall judge the world, and they will not have an excuse for the saints made it to heaven.

This is how it will go down.

Israel 70 weeks, 490 years, to make an end of sins, and as a nation accept Jesus, which the 70 weeks started before Jesus came for they were not in the truth, and the Roman Empire ruling there is testimony to that.

69 weeks has passed, 1 week to go, 7 years, the time that God causes all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom, and brings Israel to the truth.

Israel blinded in part, accepts Old Testament for the majority, but not the New, until salvation no longer available to the Gentiles, and so all Israel shall be saved.

New age movement interpretation of the Bible, based on the occult, and evolution, and interprets all religions that way, and the time will come that they will not endure sound doctrine, but want to hear the Bible according to their own lusts, evolving through nature to be greater, and spiritual.

New age movement is the future for this sinful world, and the beginning of the end for the wicked, and will pave the way to the beast kingdom.

Paul said the saints cannot be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first which is at the end of the first three and one half years, when the transgressors are come to the full, which is the condition of the world in response to the Gospel, which they hindered it from being preached, for they say it is not truth, and a hate crime, and going against their peace plan, and the man of sin claims to be God to the world, then the saints can be gathered unto Christ.

But the beast makes war against the saints, and they are given in to his hands for three and one half years.

New Age Christ will establish peace in the Middle East, all Jews will go to Israel, Jews will go back to animal sacrifices, and split Jerusalem with the Palestinians.

The nations will come together and try to establish peace on earth.

The world split in to 10 sections with a leader in each section, new age movement unified religious system, with all religions included interpreted by them as being the truth.

Repentance, and salvation are still offered during the first three and one half years.

The 10 horn kingdom failed at obtaining peace because of a terrible war where one third of the world perishes, and they accept the man of sin as the solution to have peace.

When they take the mark of the beast repentance, and salvation no longer offered, and the fulness of the Gentiles have come in, and then God will turn Israel to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.

Israel is protected for the 7 years period from physical attack, war.

At the end of the last three and one half years Israel as a nation are in the truth, and the saints that remain alive on earth is gathered unto Christ.

Which the Bible says that there are souls in heaven that ask Jesus when He will avenge them, and He said when the saints are with them that come out of tribulation.

God's wrath is poured upon the world, and the world attacks Jerusalem, the Jews, and Jesus comes back with all the saints, and defeats the world, and saves Israel.

It cannot be a pre-7 years resurrection.

Repentance, and salvation are still available to the world for the first three and one half years, so the saints will remain on earth to represent the truth.

Paul said when they say Peace and safety that the saints will not be deceived by it knowing it is not the operation of God, and when they say Peace and safety it starts the 7 years period, and the saints are on earth.

Which Jesus said He will deliver the saints in the truth from the temptation that shall come upon all the world, to try all them that dwell on earth, which there can only be one temptation that can come upon the whole world at the same time, when they say Peace and safety, for will they get with God, or follow the world, and will the hypocrites stay with God and get right, or will they follow the world.

Which multitudes, multitudes, in the valley of decision, for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

Also in Daniel when they shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people then all things are finished, which is for three and one half years, the last half, and then shall come the end when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, when He shall put down all rule, authority, and power.

As soon as the resurrection happens Jesus is right on them pronto to put them down, but if it is pre-7 years period why do they continue for 7 years which they would not.

Jesus does not put them down until the 7 years period is done, so the resurrection is at the end of the 7 years, for as soon as the saints are gathered unto Christ He goes right against them pronto.

So it is not a pre-7 years, for the saints are on earth when the nations come together, and it starts the 7 years period, and repentance, and salvation are still available to the world, and Jesus does not put the world down until at the end of the 7 years period, and as soon as the resurrection happens He goes right after them, so that is when the saints are resurrected.

Some say that the saints will not go through the 7 years tribulation period, but the tribulation period is the last three and one half years, and the tribulation is not for the world, but for the saints.

Some say that because they think God's wrath is in the 7 years period, but it is not.

God is allowing the world to have their way for the 7 years period to rebel against Him, and persecute the truth, so He will not go against them until the 7 years period is done.

Repentance, and salvation is still available for the first three and one half years, so God will not go against them at that time.

And the beast has power to continue for three and one half years, after he claims to be God in the middle of the 7 years period, and he has power to rule over all nations, kindreds, and tongues, which he can only have that power if God allows him to rule, so God will not go against them at that time.

And the trumpets is not the wrath of God, but they are troubles, disasters, so that the world will turn to God, and at the end of the 6th trumpet God said the world will still not repent of their sins, and turn to Him, so He gives them the man of sin to rule over them.

In other words despite the problems that occur on earth, and terrible situations, the world will not turn to God as the solution for peace, but keep trying to achieve peace by their own efforts.

An example is WW1, set up League of Nations to try to work in the world to solve their problems, did not turn to God, WW2, set up United Nations, did not turn to God, and that pattern will continue until WW3, Islam against the world, the 6th trumpet, did not turn to God, but accepted the New Age Christ as the solution to have peace, so God allows them to be deceived by him.

The gathering of the saints unto Christ will happen at the end of the 7 years period, and then the wrath of God against the world, and then the battle of Armageddon where Jesus defeats the world, and saves Israel, and then the millennial reign as Jesus fulfills the role of perfect King on earth, and then the law is fulfilled, and heaven and earth shall pass away, and a new heaven, and earth, where sin has never been, and sin will never be, and the angels, and saints shall not remember anything prior to that, nor shall it come to mind, for the old heaven and earth is associated with sin, and rebellion.

thank you for your input!🙏🙏🙏

Leastamongmany · Jul 14, 2019

Guojing said:

Once the Jewish nation rejected Christ as their Messiah about one year after the Crucifixion, the Tribulation was suppose to have come upon them. Luke 13:8.

You have to view those verses you quoted in the light of the prophecy.

However, God the Father revealed the biggest plot twist in the history of scripture, with the grace dispensation mystery thru Paul. Ephesians 3:9.

That Tribulation was postponed, to usher in his grand plan to save the Gentiles, independent of the Jews.

Thank you for your input!🙏🙏🙏

cv5 · Jul 14, 2019

cv5 said:

I have been reading the various replies and contributions and I see that a key crucial point has been missed.

That being the fact that in the time of the Tribulation ALL PREACHING AND EVANGELISTIC EFFORTS are being conducted
wholly and solely by ISRAEL. By the 144,000 to begin with and of course the Two Witnesses. All of them Israelites. To allow for this a pre-tribber would have to declare that the Great Commission has been surreptitiously terminated, the throngs of Christians abandoning their posts. There is no scriptural support for this either.

Indeed, the Church is nowhere to be found post Rev ch 3, which alone should be enough to convince the most ardent post-tribber.

Furthermore, the fact that only Israelites are noted as carrying on the task of preaching utterly wrecks the Preterist 70 AD crowd BTW.

The Church has a unique identity, destiny, priority, station, and timeframe. Upon their removal, Israel and the gentiles have their own, one that is meted out after the Harpazo event.

Let us not forget that the phenomenon of being "caught up" into the heavens to meet the Lord in the air, is absolutely unique to the Church and no other group.

One other thing...the only way that anybody enters the Kingdom in the time of the Tribulation is by being beheaded or martyred. Any remaining are left to repopulate the earth. Everyone else is judged and killed and is awaiting damnation at the GWTJ.
There is no requirement for persons in the Church age to be killed immediately upon conversion.

https://biblehub.com/greek/726.htm

No....the time of the Tribulation is absolutely unique. The Church is not mixed up in any of that juncture in Gods plan of Salvation.

"To allow for this a pre-tribber "

Meant to say post-tribber. Sorry for any confusion.

jb · Jul 14, 2019

Post-Tribulation!

Matt 24v29-31: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..."

2Thess 2v1-8: "concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him...Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed...And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming."

Rev 7v9,10,13,14: "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

"out of"...you have to be "in something" before you can come "out of" it!

And so forth...

cv5 · Jul 14, 2019

jb said:

Post-Tribulation!

Matt 24v29-31: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..."

2Thess 2v1-8: "concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him...Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed...And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming."

Rev 7v9,10,13,14: "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

"out of"...you have to be "in something" before you can come "out of" it!

And so forth...

No. The Harpazo event occurs when the man of sin is revealed. Then the GT begins. Christians have been caught up by then.

Pre trib is correct.

Adstar · Jul 14, 2019

I believe the Rapture will happen on the day of the return of Jesus detailed in Matthew 24.. I wrote this below up a few years ago..

The Day of the Lord is the Day of the Messiah's Second Coming Jesus describes what will happen on that day. I will bold the words i wish you to take close note of.[/I]

Matthew 24
27For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So After the tribulation Jesus will return and gather the elect to Him.

There is another Rapture verse spoken of by Jesus that links the Day of the Lord to the Rapture.

Luke 17
29but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31" In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32Remember Lot's wife. 33Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."

When will the Son of Man (Messiah Jesus) be revealed? At His second coming the Day of the Lord. Who will take the sleeping man and the woman grinding and the man working in the field? The angels sent out in Matthew 24 verse 21

It is also nice to note that Jesus revealed that this will be a world wide event because at the time of His return it will be day on one half of the world "In that day" and it will be night on the other half of the world "in that night"

Also this will be an event that will take place in a twinkling of an eye Paul reveals the rapture and its timing at the Last trumpet this scripture is probably the best rapture supporting scripture in the bible:

1 Corrinthians15:
49And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

Here Paul is saying that as we inhabit earthly bodies derived from dust so shall we inhabit new bodies changed and not made of dust. Paul goes on to explain why:

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

So the bodies that we inhabit cannot enter the Kingdom of God and also "corruption" dead bodies must also be changed also. Then Paul reveals a mystery:

51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So Paul is saying that "we shall not all sleep" now I hope everyone can agree that he is talking about physical death here? Paul is saying not everyone will experience physical death. He goes on to say that "we shall all be changed" both the dead and the living "in a moment", now at this point it could be argued that both the dead and the living could be changed in a moment in time, but at different times. That is to say the moment is only referring to the time it takes to change, not at the same moment. But we read on and Paul states the moment will be. "in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet." So not only shall both the living and the dead be changed to inherit the Kingdom of God But they will both change at the same moment, at the last trumpet. As He goes on to say "For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Paul goes on to explain it in more detail:

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory.

So here again we see Paul referring to the two states of being that the saints will be in at the time of the 1st Resurrection/Rapture "So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality," Dead saints and living saints caught up together in a twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.

So from what we have read the first resurrection and the rapture (although different experiences for them that take part) will happen at the same instant in time at the last trumpet.

So now we go on to the next scripture this is the last trumpet revealed in the book of Revelation:

Revelation10
7but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

Now the sounding of the seventh Angel is the last of a series of seven trumpets in revelation. Note that the scripture says the "Mystery of God would be finished" now the coming of the Messiah has been described by scripture at a coming in the sky (a darkened sky) and all people will see Him. Now after this event there will be on ifs or buts about the Mystery of God because all will see that God is and who He is. Everyone will know from that moment on, there will be no Mystery left. As for the darkening of the sky this is described as happening beforehand on the sounding of the forth trumpet:

Revelation 8
12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.

Now This brings up the belief in two resurrections. The resurrection of the saints that happens at the second coming and the resurrection of the rest of mankind at the end of the 1000 years for the great final Judgement. The Book of Revelation chapter 20 clearly states that their will be two distinct resurrections one at the return of the Messiah Jesus and another at the end of the 1000 year reign of the Messiah Jesus:

Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

satanic Rebellion Crushed

(1) 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[2] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[3] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

cv5 · Jul 14, 2019

Adstar said:

I believe the Rapture will happen on the day of the return of Jesus detailed in Matthew 24.. I wrote this below up a few years ago..

The Day of the Lord is the Day of the Messiah's Second Coming Jesus describes what will happen on that day. I will bold the words i wish you to take close note of.[/I]

Matthew 24
27For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So After the tribulation Jesus will return and gather the elect to Him.

There is another Rapture verse spoken of by Jesus that links the Day of the Lord to the Rapture.

Luke 17
29but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31" In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32Remember Lot's wife. 33Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."

When will the Son of Man (Messiah Jesus) be revealed? At His second coming the Day of the Lord. Who will take the sleeping man and the woman grinding and the man working in the field? The angels sent out in Matthew 24 verse 21

It is also nice to note that Jesus revealed that this will be a world wide event because at the time of His return it will be day on one half of the world "In that day" and it will be night on the other half of the world "in that night"

Also this will be an event that will take place in a twinkling of an eye Paul reveals the rapture and its timing at the Last trumpet this scripture is probably the best rapture supporting scripture in the bible:

1 Corrinthians15:
49And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

Here Paul is saying that as we inhabit earthly bodies derived from dust so shall we inhabit new bodies changed and not made of dust. Paul goes on to explain why:

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

So the bodies that we inhabit cannot enter the Kingdom of God and also "corruption" dead bodies must also be changed also. Then Paul reveals a mystery:

51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So Paul is saying that "we shall not all sleep" now I hope everyone can agree that he is talking about physical death here? Paul is saying not everyone will experience physical death. He goes on to say that "we shall all be changed" both the dead and the living "in a moment", now at this point it could be argued that both the dead and the living could be changed in a moment in time, but at different times. That is to say the moment is only referring to the time it takes to change, not at the same moment. But we read on and Paul states the moment will be. "in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet." So not only shall both the living and the dead be changed to inherit the Kingdom of God But they will both change at the same moment, at the last trumpet. As He goes on to say "For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Paul goes on to explain it in more detail:

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory.

So here again we see Paul referring to the two states of being that the saints will be in at the time of the 1st Resurrection/Rapture "So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality," Dead saints and living saints caught up together in a twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.

So from what we have read the first resurrection and the rapture (although different experiences for them that take part) will happen at the same instant in time at the last trumpet.

So now we go on to the next scripture this is the last trumpet revealed in the book of Revelation:

Revelation10
7but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

Now the sounding of the seventh Angel is the last of a series of seven trumpets in revelation. Note that the scripture says the "Mystery of God would be finished" now the coming of the Messiah has been described by scripture at a coming in the sky (a darkened sky) and all people will see Him. Now after this event there will be on ifs or buts about the Mystery of God because all will see that God is and who He is. Everyone will know from that moment on, there will be no Mystery left. As for the darkening of the sky this is described as happening beforehand on the sounding of the forth trumpet:

Revelation 8
12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.

Now This brings up the belief in two resurrections. The resurrection of the saints that happens at the second coming and the resurrection of the rest of mankind at the end of the 1000 years for the great final Judgement. The Book of Revelation chapter 20 clearly states that their will be two distinct resurrections one at the return of the Messiah Jesus and another at the end of the 1000 year reign of the Messiah Jesus:

Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

satanic Rebellion Crushed

(1) 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[2] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[3] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Christ taught that he would rescue His Church. On the other hand, Israel goes through the GT as did the friends of Daniel. Daniel was not there BTW.

Enoch was caught up before the flood.

Ruth was at the feet of Boaz on the threshing floor.

Absolutely · Jul 14, 2019

jb said:

Post-Tribulation!

Matt 24v29-31: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..."

2Thess 2v1-8: "concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him...Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed...And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming."

Rev 7v9,10,13,14: "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

"out of"...you have to be "in something" before you can come "out of" it!

And so forth...

You have to factor in ALL the pretrib verses.
Those verses you posted are all pretrib taken out of context for reframing.

There aren't any postrib rapture verses.
None

PRE- MID- POST TRIBULATION.... JESUS RETURN TO EARTH FOR HIS BRIDE!

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