Faith is a work.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,571
13,548
113
58
" Jewish believers"

aka Christians. As were the Samaritans in Acts 8 and the gentiles in Acts 10.
No difference between them whatsoever.
Acts 15:7 - And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *Not faith and water baptism.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
Acts 15:7 - And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *Not faith and water baptism.
Yep, by the time of the council, the grace dispensation was in full swing.

Pity James still had problems accepting that for the Jews, as shown in acts 21.

Once you understand this, James letter became so much easier to understand
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,114
965
113
The gospel of grace came thru the apostle Paul, after Stephen was stoned, so after Acts 9, water baptism was phased out, as the Cornelius account in Acts 10 showed. But of course, every new dispensation has some form of transitional period, so Acts is a transitional book, as James in Acts 21 clearly still did not believe or accept that the dispensation has changed.

As for Acts 3:19, you are really arguing from silence there. If Luke did not record Paul saying the phrase "be baptized", there could be many reasons for that, the point is, you cannot and should not use Acts 3:19 to explain Acts 2:38.
Acts 16 proves you wrong about water baptism. Water baptism is still in effect.

Acts 16: 30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed theirstripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
Acts 16 proves you wrong about water baptism. Water baptism is still in effect.
Absolutely. The Hyper-Dispensationalists have done a lot of damage by (1) wrongly dividing the Word of truth, (2) making a hash of the Acts of the Apostles, and (3) misleading others by teaching them that water baptism and the Lord's Supper are unnecessary for Christians during the Church Age.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
The gospel of grace came thru the apostle Paul, after Stephen was stoned, so after Acts 9, water baptism was phased out...
That is TOTAL NONSENSE. Water baptism has never been phased out, and even Acts 16 proves that you are seriously mistaken. And Romans 6 confirms that water baptism is required for every Christian. In the book of Acts, conversion and baptism always went hand-in-hand and there were no delays.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,114
965
113
That is the main benefit of being a dispensationalist in my opinion. We can interpret Bible verses literally and still maintain our position that, under the current gospel of grace, salvation is indeed by faith alone. :)

Mark 16:16 is an example of a crystal clear verse to me. If you really respect the literal KJV phrasing, there is no way around the fact that it says you need to believe AND be baptized, in order to be saved.

By the way, do you agree with my last point to you that you are "arguing from silence"?
Misunderstood Bible verse. Mark 16:16 only shows water baptism can't save
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
That is TOTAL NONSENSE. Water baptism has never been phased out, and even Acts 16 proves that you are seriously mistaken. And Romans 6 confirms that water baptism is required for every Christian. In the book of Acts, conversion and baptism always went hand-in-hand and there were no delays.
When I say phase out, I mean it’s no longer necessary for salvation or anything else.

As I said acts is a transitional book
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
When I say phase out, I mean it’s no longer necessary for salvation or anything else.
OK. So we are agreed that baptism is not necessary for salvation. BTW, it never was. But to say that it is no longer necessary for "anything else" means that you have failed to understand the meaning and significance of baptism and its spiritual impact. It is the first step of obedience to Christ, as an example. But there is much more to it. And had it been unnecessary, the Lord would not have COMMANDED it in the first place, and the apostles would not have COMMANDED it in the second place. One could write a dissertation on this subject, but enough said.
As I said acts is a transitional book
Acts may be a transitional book, but that does not nullify the doctrines contained therein. It is for there for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,747
6,913
113
Faith is not a work. Thank God! If faith were a work, there would be no one person saved......... (IMO)
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,114
965
113
When I say phase out, I mean it’s no longer necessary for salvation or anything else.

As I said acts is a transitional book
This means you believe at one time water baptism is needed in salvation. This is purely wrong on the basis that it has no backing in the words of God. Mark 16 and Acts 2 never postulate this case.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,801
8,618
113
That is TOTAL NONSENSE. Water baptism has never been phased out, and even Acts 16 proves that you are seriously mistaken. And Romans 6 confirms that water baptism is required for every Christian. In the book of Acts, conversion and baptism always went hand-in-hand and there were no delays.
Except for the thief on the cross.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
OK. So we are agreed that baptism is not necessary for salvation. BTW, it never was. But to say that it is no longer necessary for "anything else" means that you have failed to understand the meaning and significance of baptism and its spiritual impact. It is the first step of obedience to Christ, as an example. But there is much more to it. And had it been unnecessary, the Lord would not have COMMANDED it in the first place, and the apostles would not have COMMANDED it in the second place. One could write a dissertation on this subject, but enough said.

Acts may be a transitional book, but that does not nullify the doctrines contained therein. It is for there for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness.
So if you are not water baptized after you are saved by faith alone, what will happen to you?

Ephesians 4:5 said there is one baptism now under the grace dispensation, what baptism was Paul referring to in there?
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
This means you believe at one time water baptism is needed in salvation. This is purely wrong on the basis that it has no backing in the words of God. Mark 16 and Acts 2 never postulate this case.
If you have read my discussion a few pages earlier, I was discussing this with others. If you disagree, you may join in the debate if you want.

In short, you have missed the biggest plot twist in the history of scripture in mid Acts, where God revealed a new plan that was hidden in him since creation began. Ephesians 3:9,

You can also join in the discussion about the word AND in Mark 16:16 if you prefer. :)
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,114
965
113
If you have read my discussion a few pages earlier, I was discussing this with others. If you disagree, you may join in the debate if you want.

In short, you have missed the biggest plot twist in the history of scripture in mid Acts, where God revealed a new plan that was hidden in him since creation began. Ephesians 3:9,

You can also join in the discussion about the word AND in Mark 16:16 if you prefer. :)
Umm, Mid Acts, a hyper dispensation...misapplying division of the words of God. Yap and what mystery is this?
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
Yep, by the time of the council, the grace dispensation was in full swing.

Pity James still had problems accepting that for the Jews, as shown in acts 21.

Once you understand this, James letter became so much easier to understand

Grace was dispensed to Abel a gentile. It was already in full swing. He is the lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world. Before he corrupted the flesh of mankind.

If any has not the born again Spirit of Christ they simply do not belong to Him . We know no man after the flesh .Some did know Christ that way. But when he left he informs us we know him that way no more forever more .God is not a man as us. Never was never could be.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
Grace was dispensed to Abel a gentile. It was already in full swing. He is the lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world. Before he corrupted the flesh of mankind.

If any has not the born again Spirit of Christ they simply do not belong to Him . We know no man after the flesh .Some did know Christ that way. But when he left he informs us we know him that way no more forever more .God is not a man as us. Never was never could be.
It was always by God's grace but for Abel, as Hebrews stated, he had to offer a better sacrifice by faith in order to be "saved". So his salvation does involve a work.

He could not, like us now, be putting his faith in Jesus's death burial and resurrection alone, simply because it has not happened yet.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
So if you are not water baptized after you are saved by faith alone, what will happen to you?

Ephesians 4:5 said there is one baptism now under the grace dispensation, what baptism was Paul referring to in there?
I would offer...

Water is used as a metaphor in that ceremonial law performed when entering the priesthood of believers .The Son of man from the tribe of Judah was fulling the prophecy after the new manner of priesthood .(Melchezedek) No longer after a Levi. John the last Levi of the old order.

Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven
.John3:25-27

Context is important... destroy the foundation of the doctrine then its anything goes.

Signs follow not lead one has a desire represent the gospel . The Unbelieving Jew demanded a sign before they would beleive .(no faith)

The faithless Jew took the shadows. . like water that clearly was used as metaphors and worshipped them as idols tools . . . the work of mans hand.

Taking away the gospel message as if they were more than a ceremonial laws that as a shadow of good things to come it working in the old tesetemmt saints spoke ahead to a suffering Savior and the glory that followed

We look back by the same faith that worked in them, not of our own selves after something we can do, they looked ahead by the same authority .

The faithless Jew would have nothing to do with the idea of a ceremonial law as a shadow. . But rather in affect said; we will do whatsoever our own mouths say . Making the word of God the one source of Christian faith without effect (Jerimiah 44)

Receiving the end of our faith from the beginning as one work our confidence..(Philipian1:6)

Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the
grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1 Peter 1:8-11

The time of reformation has come, the veil is rent .the last days began .

Water is used a metaphor in all cases .It does not stop being used as a metaphor in parables .

If we walk by faith and then we will not have do obey the desires flesh . Like for instance...get me wet or make a noise as some sort of sign gift to confirm or convince.

The doctrines of God or called water of the word is that by which husbands are to wash their wives in the same way Christ washes us clean from within . Wash each other with the Love of God

The same principle. Its not what goes into the flesh or on the flesh ……..coming from anything pertaining to the flesh. I think it is why Jesus said His flesh profits for nothing.

According to the rule of interpretation. It would be like saying: Do you not understand, that whatsoever goes on the body dries up or washes off? If we do not as Christian, that walk by faith. . . . wrestles against flesh and blood. Then why would we think it has a advantage in knowing Christ? We do not wrestle against flesh and blood (the temporal things seen) because we have a advantage in Christ.

Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man
.Mathew 15:17-20
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
It was always by God's grace but for Abel, as Hebrews stated, he had to offer a better sacrifice by faith in order to be "saved". So his salvation does involve a work.

He could not, like us now, be putting his faith in Jesus's death burial and resurrection alone, simply because it has not happened yet.
Yes the demonstration had not yet occurred .But I do not see how it affects that he is the lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world? The principle works with the promised demonstration .Abel received favor as we do. . . by the hearing of his new born again faith.The first martyr who blood cries out..

It involved the work of Christ working in him to both will and do the good pleasure of God. The mystery of faith. the peace of God that surpasses our understanding .It is the work of God that we can believe God .No work of God. . no faith of God by which we could know Him not seen .

The better sacrifice is Christ, the Lamb of God not Abel's blood which spoke of Christ sacrifice of pouring out His Spirit as if it was blood in jeopardy of his own Spirit. . Blood like water represents His unseen Spirit. Some times both metaphors are used together to teach us how to walk by faith.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
It was always by God's grace but for Abel, as Hebrews stated, he had to offer a better sacrifice by faith in order to be "saved". So his salvation does involve a work.

He could not, like us now, be putting his faith in Jesus's death burial and resurrection alone, simply because it has not happened yet.
So up until offering God a better sacrifice he did not believe in God?

Faith comes first my friend.