Do you want the truth? Here is the truth about eschatology
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I believe this would be a interesting thread to write upon , so that we all , may read the scripture and examine carefully the present times , along with the event that have to take place before and at the time of the Beast and False Prophet.
Shalom
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The dividing point is not between spiritual and literal but between abstract and literal. All revelation is spiritual whether is it manifested literally or abstractly.
That's the point I'm making though in that if Revelation 13:15 is abstract(not having physical or concrete existence) then nobody can be killed in a physical or concrete manner.
The ones who are deceived in R.13:15 are spiritually slain in the deception and worship the image. The ones who do not worship the image are not deceived by the beast/false prophet and so don't suffer spiritual death in the deception. So if they are then killed the only death(killed) left as an option is physical.
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It is not abstract.....from the historical perspective the beast is Rome and its image is one of the Caesars.
I have to think on the rest of what you have stated since I have lost track of the comments on this thread and need to go back and reread.
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Your correct it is not abstract. In Revelation 19:21 is another example https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+19:19-21&version=KJV ,,that is they are slain with the sword that proceeded out of his mouth.
Now if you look at the verses prior they had been deceived and received the mark and worshiped the image of the beast and were already dead spiritually so again the only manner of death left as an option is to be literally slain by the sword of his mouth.
The 1st Jewish revolt, ad66-70 has been recorded by those who lived in that day. So it's as though you have the Jews of that time frame's acts(actions) recorded similar to Acts(act of the apostles).So following this history(Josephus) and comparing it with Revelation 13 how do they compare?
The Jews revolted from ad66-70 against Rome,in Rev.13 those who worship the image don't revolt they support the image with worship.(Jews actions are opposite).
In Rev.13 those who receive the mark can buy and sell those who do not cannot. The Jews minted their own coins and refused Nero's/Rome's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish_Revolt_coinage because of the pagan images on them.(again the direct opposite of Scripture in Rev.13)...
Hi thanks for that. If I could offer a different perspective.
They are already born dead in their trespasses and sin without a living hope and God in this present world, as to the working out of the first death. As soon as sinners are born they go forth telling lies .Not knowing the mind of God as it is written they have no way of understanding. or how to seek. .
Psalm 58:3The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
I would offer What mankind needs is a brand new born again spirit dwelling in a corrupted earthen body of death ….the wrath of God revealed from heaven .
The unbelievers (no faith) just do not receive an new spirit that could be raised on the last day.
The reformation began when the veil was rent not years later .Having nothing to do with the pollical kingdoms of this world like Nero.
The last days began when Jesus said it is finished .The temporal temple that stood as a (shadow ceremonial metaphor) in that Holy Place as a parable was for the time present. God had given over the faithless Jews to teach us of unbelief . They had become jealous of the surrounding pagan nations that did make their temple an abomination of desolation removing the God unseen as the King of kings, Lord of lords The Holy Spirit said to Samael; its not you they reject as King but me the unseen King proving their unfaithfulness to the word as it is written.
To try and rebuild a literal temporal Temple speaks of the abomination of desolation that the unbelieving Jews used. They said: We want a King like Saul to represent unbelieving mankind same kind of false zeal, today . Then the Holy Spirit sent Samuel the prophet to retrieve the choice of God from out in the green pastures. The way I see it. Hid from his family. The guy who wrote goofy Poems and stunk like a sheep herder. the youngest gets the smelly job it would seem. The prophet not welcomed in his own town or family.
All of their crying out to some stone wall today shows that abomination that causes desolation (removing God from the Holy place of faith) .. The holy unseen place is reserved for the Holy Father. Even the Son of man Jesus refused to stand in it. But rather gave glory to the Holy Father not seen and said only God, not seen. . . is good GOOD.
Good defines the invisible presence of God and is why Jesus refused to be called GOOD MASTER.
God was a man as us and there is, never was a infallible fleshly mediator to stand between eternal God not seen and temporal man seen. Jesus refused to take on the title of Daysman. Again he would never stand in the holy place of the unseen glory of God.
That just would not make any sence at least to myself.
Do you believe today you are to https://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/13.htm see the authority over you as rulers over you and that you should pay the dues worthy to them as in Roman 13:1-7? Are you suppose to be in subjection to very human institution as in https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_peter/2.htm#13 ?
Hard to follow this thread fully... found this table that shows Futurist vs Preterist vs Historicist beliefs (not certain is its accuracy)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris...f_Futurist,_Preterist_and_Historicist_beliefs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris...f_Futurist,_Preterist_and_Historicist_beliefs
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In FP(the OP) everything in Revelation is seen as fulfilled prior to ad70 with maybe the exception of the white throne judgment. That's why it's important to them to defend the writing of Revelation and show it written prior to ad70. So anything and everything in Revelation has to be fulfilled prior to ad70 for FP to be correct, Rev. 13,,,AoD,,mark,,, everything.
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So then I am correct in your assertion that since Jews were not killed, did not worship the image of the beast and created their own coinage means that Revelation 13:15 was not fulfilled therefore it must be in the future?
Correct and is also why I keep giving you http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html and asking you if you have examined it. Why is it records the actions of the Jews who were involved in the revolt(ad66-70) and shows them doing the direct opposite of those in Rev. 13 during the time frame FP is saying they worshiped Nero's/image and took the mark.
If you examine post #411 the apostles are telling the Christians(in the links) to see the then rulers(Rome) and the Sanhedrin( if Jewish) to see them as ordained by God and to pay tithes(dues) to them. If the Apostles would have seen Nero as the beast/mark when they wrote Romans/1Peter then they would be telling them to obey the beast of Rev.13 and buy and sell with it's mark.(don't seem correct right?)
The Romans on the other hand during the 1,2,3 revolts at the end were not "destroyed" but continued on in history, then divided into east/west (Constantine) and onward but were not destroyed by the brightness of our Lords coming like Scripture,(again opposite of Scripture).
And the Jews involved in the revolt(ad66-70) are doing the opposite of what Scripture states of those who worship the image.
Which then examining the three players in Scripture(Jews,,Roman/pagans, and the Christians) shows that none of the three of them were worshiping the image, taking the mark ect. duing that time frame.
Hi thanks for the reply
From another perspective. Its not so much the governing but the teaching authority .In that way we are to call no man teacher on earth.
Yes, I would believe that is the law God has established as a safe guard . Just as the Son of man Jesus obeyed. . we follow.
He has also established as law as a warning to protect those who say we must have a man seen teaching us as a infallible interpreter calling them antichrists . . . men seduced by the father of lies to take away the grace of God. Peter was used that way as a example to us not to stand in the Holy unseen place of God's glory. . hidden in the father. Even the Son of man refused to stand there. . But rather gave glory to the unseen Holy place and said: Only God alone is good. Good the invisible signature of God.
It would seem as apologists, defenders of the faith we all understand there is one source of faith as it is written, as the faith of Christ by which we can in affect hear the voice God.. We defend that which ultimately does defend the whole with the armor he freely gives us and interpreting prescriptions. We hear differently like fingerprints because of the language but hopefully we are working toward the common gospel get the gospel out.
It seems to me he puts us between a rock and a hard place so that we might seek after the things not seen an ongoing desire . It would seem to accompany salvation.
These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.1 John2:26-27
I totally agree! It is truly a strong deception when you can get people to reject what God's word literally says vs. what it doesn't say.
The literal letter of the law gives us the signified interpretation not seen. Its how the whole book is written and is heard. Inspired it, and gives us the unseen signified understanding. . calling it mixed with faith in what we do, see or hear.
Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and "signified" it by his angel unto his servant John:
The image of the beast is corrupted mankind. The father of lie working in the heart of men. Like the example with Peter in Mathew 16:22-23
The number of mankind 666 .
Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.
Believers buy the gospel as spiritual truth and do not sell it as seeing no value like Cain or Esau . Esau sold his for some deer meat soup. Cain received a punishment more than he could bear a living hell. The mark.
Revelation 13:15-18 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.