Do you want the truth? Here is the truth about eschatology

[delirious]

Peter is comparing the passing away of the 1st world through flood and is saying the current world is also reserved for fire. Not sure if the fire would be physical but the main thing is that the flood was global (not in Jerusalem only) and so the fire reserved for the ungodly today, whether physical or not, shall be global (means every ungodly men will be affected), not just the ungodly in Jerusalem.

You are making a logical error when you assume that since the flood was global that 2 Peter 3:10-13 is global. There is nothing that necessitates that conclusion other than it sounds logical to the human mind that doesn't understand the nature of apocalyptic verses. It is not global. 2 peter refers to Jerusalem's destruction and the temple in 70 AD. Josephus records that the city was burned to the ground, along with the temple, so thoroughly that it looked like no one had ever lived there.

The "elements" mentioned in 2 Peter 3:10&12 is the Greek word "Stoichea". It's used 7 times in the NT (Gal 4:3&9, Col 2:8&20, 2 Peter 3:10&12 and Heb 5:12). Do a word study on it. It is not the periodic table of elements. It is referring to the Mosaic Law. Peter is using apocalyptic language in 2 Peter 3:10-13 to describe the end of the Law and old covenant Israel. That's why Peter also mentions the scoffers of the last days in that chapter which is a reference to the unbelieving Jews mocking the Christians that He would actually come back. But God was patient not wanting any of the Jews to perish in the city (2 Peter 3:9). But that patience was to wear out soon (2 peter 3:10).

But you are mainly wrong about the 70AD events because it is the ungodly men (Romans) that dished the punishment to Godly men in Jerusalem. The disciples of Jesus were also affected.

You have this completely backwards. Read Matt 22:1-14. Jesus says in Matt 22:7 that the Romans are His armies. And He calls the Jews inside the city of Jerusalem in 70 AD wicked men. He says it many times in the gospels too. An evil and adulterous generation. A Harlot. Mystery Babylon. Jerusalem. Those Jews were Satan's armies just like God said to the Pharisees that the devil was their father. And when Jesus destroyed them with His armies (the Romans) in Matt 22:7 then the next verse (Matt 22:8) tells us the marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev 19) is ready in at the time of their destruction. Luke 19:11-27, the parable of the minas, also confirms the Jews in Jerusalem in 70 AD were wicked men.

 

[UnderGrace]

Nope.
Jesus was not talking about the events of 70AD but the entire church era which is 2000 yrs +. I understand why most people would get get confused by the words "this generation". Those words never meant the generation in the 1st century nor the physical generation at the end of age as some think, it meant the entire church era (2000 yrs +), based on the calculation (Daniel's 70 week prophesy).

Interesting, are there other places where generation is used as a long length of time?

I think Jesus would have used a different word, since generation has to do with people not just time?

 

[UnderGrace]

You are making a logical error when you assume that since the flood was global that 2 Peter 3:10-13 is global. There is nothing that necessitates that conclusion other than it sounds logical to the human mind that doesn't understand the nature of apocalyptic verses. It is not global. 2 peter refers to Jerusalem's destruction and the temple in 70 AD. Josephus records that the city was burned to the ground, along with the temple, so thoroughly that it looked like no one had ever lived there.

The "elements" mentioned in 2 Peter 3:10&12 is the Greek word "Stoichea". It's used 7 times in the NT (Gal 4:3&9, Col 2:8&20, 2 Peter 3:10&12 and Heb 5:12). Do a word study on it. It is not the periodic table of elements. It is referring to the Mosaic Law. Peter is using apocalyptic language in 2 Peter 3:10-13 to describe the end of the Law and old covenant Israel. That's why Peter also mentions the scoffers of the last days in that chapter which is a reference to the unbelieving Jews mocking the Christians that He would actually come back. But God was patient not wanting any of the Jews to perish in the city (2 Peter 3:9). But that patience was to wear out soon (2 peter 3:10).



You have this completely backwards. Read Matt 22:1-14. Jesus says in Matt 22:7 that the Romans are His armies. And He calls the Jews inside the city of Jerusalem in 70 AD wicked men. He says it many times in the gospels too. An evil and adulterous generation. A Harlot. Mystery Babylon. Jerusalem. Those Jews were Satan's armies just like God said to the Pharisees that the devil was their father. And when Jesus destroyed them with His armies (the Romans) in Matt 22:7 then the next verse (Matt 22:8) tells us the marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev 19) is ready in at the time of their destruction. Luke 19:11-27, the parable of the minas, also confirms the Jews in Jerusalem in 70 AD were wicked men.

I would agree that God did indeed see them as wicked men ....they had rejected their messiah.... synagogue of satan.

 

[Noose]

Mr. Noose I would have to disagree on this, I think he is absolutely referencing 70AD.

Jesus was giving very practical sound direction to His listeners and they remembered and it is recorded in history by Eusebius,, that they started to flee as early as the fall of 66 AD

"The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. Here those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his apostles finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers form the earth. (Eusebius, 3:5.)

Eusebius is no prophet, even if he lived at that time, he wouldn't understand. He was just one of the people who thought the events were a fulfillment of what Jesus said.

Matthew 24:15
So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination of desolation,' described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand),

1. Jesus references us to Daniel about the abomination. Meaning that we have to understand what Daniel said yet Daniel was closed book until the time of the end (meaning that people would not have understood it anyway).
On reading what Daniel wrote:

Dan 8:11It magnified itself, even to the Prince of the host; it removed His daily sacrifice and overthrew the place of His sanctuary. 12And on account of rebellion, the host and the daily sacrifice were given over to the horn, and it flung truth to the ground and prospered in whatever it did. 13Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long until the fulfillment of the vision of the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host to be trampled?”

Dan 9: 27And he will confirm a covenantwith many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation, until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.”

Daniel 11:31His forces will rise up and desecrate the temple fortress. They will abolish the daily sacrifice and set up the abomination of desolation.

Dan 12:10Many will be purified, made spotless, and refined, but the wicked will continue to act wickedly. None of the wicked will understand, but the wise will understand. 11And from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days.12Blessed is he who waits and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

The Romans in the 70AD, can not fulfill the above. They did not fling the truth to the ground, how could they? This is nothing more than a spiritual attack of temple of God which is our own hearts/minds- this is the only place truth and lies reside, not some physical place.

2. The words "let the reader understand " in this verse can not imply a physical siege of Jerusalem. "let the eye witness understand" would be more appropriate but the reader? Which reader are they talking about? the one who reads Eusebius accounts or the one who reads the bible?

 

[delirious]

I have to agree with mr. nehemiah6 here. He did answer your question with his general statement of if your position is true or has already taken place why are we still living in this "upholstered" cesspool" we call earth?

That does not answer those verses I posted. Jesus did not come to take PHYSICAL death or pain or suffering out of the world. It will always be here. I know you probably don't like that, and that is understandable, but that is what the Scripture says.

Jesus came to do one thing primarily. Bear witness to the truth and offer Himself as a sacrifice for the sins of the world reconciling the world back to Himself that He created.

Now, you quoted in your op 1 John 2:18 but it's obvious you did not read the preceeding verses, verses 16-18, "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes and the BOSASTFUL pride of lief is not from the Father, but is from the world. vs17, "And the world is passing away, and its lust; but one who does the will of God abides forever."

In the next several paragraphs of your post #93 you make the same error 99% of the church has been making with eschatology for 2,000 years. You make it physical. Easy mistake to make. It's how we think as humans. The church has been doing it for 2,000 years. It's completely wrong.

You even correctly recognize in the Greek that it was currently passing away. Why do you think it is written in the Greek like that? Because the old world was passing away. That was the world of the Law and old covenant Israel. Those believers had escaped it. That's why Paul says they had overcome the wicked one. The same devil that Jesus said was the father of the Pharisees. They had escaped works righteousness that could only condemn humans before a holy God. That's your lust of the flesh. That same works righteousness that would condemn the unbelieving Jews to a horrible death inside Jerusalem in 70 AD. They had escaped that world.

Romans 4:15 and Romans 5:13 say that where there is no law, there is no wrath from God. Only Israel had the law. Gentiles did not have it. That's why the seven last bowls of wrath finish the wrath of God (Rev 15:1). Revelation is about Jerusalem's destruction and the temple.

Are you serious? So were living (not physically) in the new heavens and earth why are we all still sinning? Or is it only in our imangination? Ugh!

The new heavens and earth is not physical. It is Christ's kingdom. An eternal and spiritual one. You are looking for sin to be taken out of the world but in Rev 22:14-15 you can see that their are still sinners in the new heavens and earth.

 

[delirious]

Are you stating that Jesus was only a spirit when we was among his disciples?

Absolutely not. He lived as a physical man and died as a physical man. He returned to the "spirit" after His crucifixion. God is Spirit (John 4:23-24).

 

[UnderGrace]

Absolutely not. He lived as a physical man and died as a physical man. He returned to the "spirit" after His crucifixion. God is Spirit (John 4:23-24).

Thanks, I saw later in the thread where you had clarified.

 

[Noose]

Interesting, are there other places where generation is used as a long length of time?

I think Jesus would have used a different word, since generation has to do with people not just time?

I'm not aware of any other places in the scripture where generation has been used to mean long periods of time.
But based on Daniel's 70 week prophesy which we are required to calculate, it precisely shows that this generation (Church era which is also Antichrist era) is figuratively 3.5 years. But this 3.5 years is to be calculated to our own calendar year because Revelation says the antichrist has authority for 3.5years or 42months yet the authority of his name is 666.

666 x 3.5 = 2331 years.
This, if converted to our calendar years and added to the first half of the 70th week, it will give us 2300 years.
This 2300 years is what the angel in Daniel talked of:

Dan 8: 14He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be properly restored.”

It is only that this kind of thing usually elicits great debate that i never want to engage, otherwise, i can take my time and show you, from Nebuchadnezzar's time, to Jesus' birth until 2300 evenings and mornings when everything will be restored.

So when Jesus says "this generation", he is talking about the 3.5 years which is figurative for 2300 years and church era but also antichrist era. The temple that Jesus was talking about was the hearts/minds of the believers- satan targets and deceives believers because we are all in captivity. Judea are those believers that hold on to the truth while Jerusalem are they that will succumb but God will still see them through even by suffering.

 

[UnderGrace]

I'm not aware of any other places in the scripture where generation has been used to mean long periods of time.
But based on Daniel's 70 week prophesy which we are required to calculate, it precisely shows that this generation (Church era which is also Antichrist era) is figuratively 3.5 years. But this 3.5 years is to be calculated to our own calendar year because Revelation says the antichrist has authority for 3.5years or 42months yet the authority of his name is 666.

666 x 3.5 = 2331 years.
This, if converted to our calendar years and added to the first half of the 70th week, it will give us 2300 years.
This 2300 years is what the angel in Daniel talked of:

Dan 8: 14He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be properly restored.”

It is only that this kind of thing usually elicits great debate that i never want to engage, otherwise, i can take my time and show you, from Nebuchadnezzar's time, to Jesus' birth until 2300 evenings and mornings when everything will be restored.

So when Jesus says "this generation", he is talking about the 3.5 years which is figurative for 2300 years and church era but also antichrist era. The temple that Jesus was talking about was the hearts/minds of the believers- satan targets and deceives believers because we are all in captivity. Judea are those believers that hold on to the truth while Jerusalem are they that will succumb but God will still see them through even by suffering.

Thanks, I will think on this, eschatology is my relearning endeavour so I have no response, yet, that is.

 

[Noose]

Horse Hockey! This "asinine" statement of yours does not make any sense. "If you are planning to book an air ticket, so that you can fly to Israel from Canada or wherever, to hide on some mountain because Jerusalem has been surrounded by armies."

Look, Jesus at Matthew 24:14 explains in the previous verses things that will happen and He identifies them as "birth pangs" at vs8. He closes with the words at vs18, "and then the end shall come."

At vs15 He says, "Threfore." This word means, "for that reason; or consequently." when we see (vs15) the Abomation of Desolation, i.e "THE" antichrist what will happen noose? The "tipoff" of all of this is when "THE" antichrist appears according to Jesus' words we are now in the tribulation. Btw, as a side note there is nothing in the words of Jesus Christ that we are going to be "raptured" before these events take place. And like on the old tv series "24," these events happen in real time, not in some imagined spirtual way. Think!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

The war is about principalities and powers and never about flesh and blood.

Daniel described the abomination as the truth being flung to the ground- something that the Romans could not have done when they attacked Jerusalem.

"let the reader understand" is an important note. If it was just about physical armies attacking people then this note is misplaced. Who is the reader and what would they be reading? Why didn't Jesus say "let the eye witness understand"? Were these words already written down by 70AD? and did everyone in Israel have access to these written words before 70AD?

 

[JamOn]

I'm not aware of any other places in the scripture where generation has been used to mean long periods of time.
But based on Daniel's 70 week prophesy which we are required to calculate, it precisely shows that this generation (Church era which is also Antichrist era) is figuratively 3.5 years. But this 3.5 years is to be calculated to our own calendar year because Revelation says the antichrist has authority for 3.5years or 42months yet the authority of his name is 666.

666 x 3.5 = 2331 years.
This, if converted to our calendar years and added to the first half of the 70th week, it will give us 2300 years.
This 2300 years is what the angel in Daniel talked of:

Dan 8: 14He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be properly restored.”

It is only that this kind of thing usually elicits great debate that i never want to engage, otherwise, i can take my time and show you, from Nebuchadnezzar's time, to Jesus' birth until 2300 evenings and mornings when everything will be restored.

So when Jesus says "this generation", he is talking about the 3.5 years which is figurative for 2300 years and church era but also antichrist era. The temple that Jesus was talking about was the hearts/minds of the believers- satan targets and deceives believers because we are all in captivity. Judea are those believers that hold on to the truth while Jerusalem are they that will succumb but God will still see them through even by suffering.

Where you get the 3.5 years? figuratively you said, but 2300 evenings and mornings which is one day is about 6.3 years

 

[UnderGrace]

The war is about principalities and powers and never about flesh and blood.

Daniel described the abomination as the truth being flung to the ground- something that the Romans could not have done when they attacked Jerusalem.

"let the reader understand" is an important note. If it was just about physical armies attacking people then this note is misplaced. Who is the reader and what would they be reading? Why didn't Jesus say "let the eye witness understand"? Were these words already written down by 70AD? and did everyone in Israel have access to these written words before 70AD?

In a strong oral tradition society the written word is not as essential like it is for us today.

 

[JamOn]

the Maccabees isn’t in the Bible’s, so some may not believe it has any weight
I’ve read this and seems more logical on danial 8

According to 1 Maccabees 4:52-54 and 1 Maccabees 1:59, the first sacrifice to the LORD was offered on the 25th day of Chis’lev in 164 B.C.–exactly three years to the day when the Gentiles offered the first sacrifice to Zeus on the old altar. According to 1Maccabees 1:20-24, the sanctuary was handed over to the horn, Antiochus Epiphanies, in 169 B.C when the Greek king plundered the Temple. The rebellion that causes desolation is mentioned in 2 Maccabees 5:5-14. Thinking that Antiochus Epiphanies was dead, Jason gathered a small army and overthrew Menelaus in 170 B.C. When Antiochus heard of this, he assumed that Judea had rebelled against him. This rebellion or perceived rebellion is “the rebellion that causes desolation” because this revolt was the historical reason that Antiochus attacked Judea, plundered the Temple and put an end to the daily sacrifice to the Lord as predicted in Danie1 8:13. Therefore, the total time in which all the events described in v. 13 had transpired was roughly six years from “the rebellion that causes desolation” in 170 B.C. to the reinstitution of the daily sacrifice in 164 B.C. Perhaps it was exactly 2,300 days or 6 years and 118 days between Jason’s revolt and the reinstitution of the daily sacrifice to the Lord?

https://revelationrevolution.org/daniel-8-a-preterist-commentary-understanding-daniel-8/

 

[Noose]

You are making a logical error when you assume that since the flood was global that 2 Peter 3:10-13 is global. There is nothing that necessitates that conclusion other than it sounds logical to the human mind that doesn't understand the nature of apocalyptic verses. It is not global. 2 peter refers to Jerusalem's destruction and the temple in 70 AD. Josephus records that the city was burned to the ground, along with the temple, so thoroughly that it looked like no one had ever lived there.

The "elements" mentioned in 2 Peter 3:10&12 is the Greek word "Stoichea". It's used 7 times in the NT (Gal 4:3&9, Col 2:8&20, 2 Peter 3:10&12 and Heb 5:12). Do a word study on it. It is not the periodic table of elements. It is referring to the Mosaic Law. Peter is using apocalyptic language in 2 Peter 3:10-13 to describe the end of the Law and old covenant Israel. That's why Peter also mentions the scoffers of the last days in that chapter which is a reference to the unbelieving Jews mocking the Christians that He would actually come back. But God was patient not wanting any of the Jews to perish in the city (2 Peter 3:9). But that patience was to wear out soon (2 peter 3:10).



You have this completely backwards. Read Matt 22:1-14. Jesus says in Matt 22:7 that the Romans are His armies. And He calls the Jews inside the city of Jerusalem in 70 AD wicked men. He says it many times in the gospels too. An evil and adulterous generation. A Harlot. Mystery Babylon. Jerusalem. Those Jews were Satan's armies just like God said to the Pharisees that the devil was their father. And when Jesus destroyed them with His armies (the Romans) in Matt 22:7 then the next verse (Matt 22:8) tells us the marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev 19) is ready in at the time of their destruction. Luke 19:11-27, the parable of the minas, also confirms the Jews in Jerusalem in 70 AD were wicked men.

Ok then, all you have to do is show how you calculated Daniel's 70 weeks and ended up at 70AD.
Try.

 

[Noose]

the Maccabees isn’t in the Bible’s, so some may not believe it has any weight
I’ve read this and seems more logical on danial 8

According to 1 Maccabees 4:52-54 and 1 Maccabees 1:59, the first sacrifice to the LORD was offered on the 25th day of Chis’lev in 164 B.C.–exactly three years to the day when the Gentiles offered the first sacrifice to Zeus on the old altar. According to 1Maccabees 1:20-24, the sanctuary was handed over to the horn, Antiochus Epiphanies, in 169 B.C when the Greek king plundered the Temple. The rebellion that causes desolation is mentioned in 2 Maccabees 5:5-14. Thinking that Antiochus Epiphanies was dead, Jason gathered a small army and overthrew Menelaus in 170 B.C. When Antiochus heard of this, he assumed that Judea had rebelled against him. This rebellion or perceived rebellion is “the rebellion that causes desolation” because this revolt was the historical reason that Antiochus attacked Judea, plundered the Temple and put an end to the daily sacrifice to the Lord as predicted in Danie1 8:13. Therefore, the total time in which all the events described in v. 13 had transpired was roughly six years from “the rebellion that causes desolation” in 170 B.C. to the reinstitution of the daily sacrifice in 164 B.C. Perhaps it was exactly 2,300 days or 6 years and 118 days between Jason’s revolt and the reinstitution of the daily sacrifice to the Lord?

https://revelationrevolution.org/daniel-8-a-preterist-commentary-understanding-daniel-8/

Dan 8:
13Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long until the fulfillment of the vision of the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host to be trampled?”

14He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be properly restored.”

15While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and trying to understand it, there stood before me one having the appearance of a man. 16And I heard the voice of a man calling from between the banks of the Ulai: “Gabriel, explain the vision to this man.”

17As he came near to where I stood, I was terrified and fell facedown.

“Son of man,” he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.”

The sanctuary is believers hearts and that vision concerned the time of the end.
164BC is not the end of anything by any stretch of imagination.

 

[Noose]

Where you get the 3.5 years? figuratively you said, but 2300 evenings and mornings which is one day is about 6.3 years

It is all over the scripture:

Dan 7:25He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High,intending to change the set times and laws, and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time.

Revelation 11:2
But exclude the courtyard outside the temple. Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for 42 months.

Revelation 12:14
But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle to fly from the presence of the serpent to her place in the wilderness, where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

Daniel 12:7
And the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by Him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times, and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been shattered, all these things will be completed."

 

[Noose]

So then you have more of an "historicist" position, I have been reading about this as well.

However, they do regard the prophetic as being fulfilled in real time events for the most part throughout history and still some to be fulfilled?

I don't really think i hold the "historicist" position or rather i don't know what it means., but i believe we are deep into these things than the 1st century people were.

 

[delirious]

Ok then, all you have to do is show how you calculated Daniel's 70 weeks and ended up at 70AD.
Try.

Can't do it. No man that I am aware of has been able to do it. Claudius Ptolemy is the person who lived in the 2nd century in Alexandria from where we get many of our secular dates from. There is great debate over his calculations. Many disagree that the Persian kings lasted 205 years according to Ptolemy's calculations. In the end, I don't think it matters. I don't need a precise mathematical calculation to believe God. I trust Him.

The dozens of verses I posted at the beginning of this thread make it very clear that the end, and the end of Daniel's 70 weeks, was in 70 AD. I don't know how anybody can dispute that but my fellow Christians always try to. I guess that is up to them. Many people don't like what those verses say because they see it as "taking away" the hope of a "rapture" and a physical escape from things. You can't take away what was never there. But I often get vilified by my fellow Christians. I don't take it personally though. They don't understand and many of them don't want to believe it.

 

[delirious]

It is all over the scripture:

Dan 7:25He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High,intending to change the set times and laws, and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time.

Revelation 11:2
But exclude the courtyard outside the temple. Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for 42 months.

Revelation 12:14
But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle to fly from the presence of the serpent to her place in the wilderness, where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

Daniel 12:7
And the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by Him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times, and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been shattered, all these things will be completed."

You are ignoring that Revelation says not once but SEVEN times that the book would be fulfilled SHORTLY. You are taking apocalyptic writing and trying to stretch it into 2,000 years and counting which the book itself denies as a possible time frame.

 

[JamOn]

Dan 8:
13Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long until the fulfillment of the vision of the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host to be trampled?”

14He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be properly restored.”

15While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and trying to understand it, there stood before me one having the appearance of a man. 16And I heard the voice of a man calling from between the banks of the Ulai: “Gabriel, explain the vision to this man.”

17As he came near to where I stood, I was terrified and fell facedown.

“Son of man,” he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.”

The sanctuary is believers hearts and that vision concerned the time of the end.
164BC is not the end of anything by any stretch of imagination.

This site speaks a lot on it, and sounds a bit more logic, even the account of Jesus return on the clouds in the 66AD war between Rome and Israel.

https://revelationrevolution.org/hi...ally-seen-in-the-clouds-in-the-first-century/

https://revelationrevolution.org/daniel-8-a-preterist-commentary-understanding-daniel-8/