Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[SimpleGardner]

Here's another way to look at this topic:

Those who reject the Law are literally "under the burden of the Law"

Those who receive the guidance of the Holy Spirit which writes the Law upon their heart, are no longer "under the burden of the Law" because they are in conformity with it!

Pauls words:

Gal 5:18 KJV But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

"under the law" would be better understood if we recognized it as a "term" that means buried by the immense pressure of something we cannot lift. But as Paul clarifies it: "But IF ye be led of the Spirit..." The Law is no longer an immense pressure!

Take a look:

Rom 7:18-25 KJV For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. (22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: (23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul recognizes his old carnal man is "under the Law"/buried by it, but through Jesus Christ he finds a renewed mind with which to serve the LAW!


Rom 8:7-11 KJV Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


The Spirit of life is righteousness! What is righteousness? Those who are not "under the law" but through the Spirit "Serve the Law"

 

[SimpleGardner]

The Priestly source, one of the four main sources of the Torah/Pentateuch in the Bible, is primarily a product of the post-exilic period when the former Kingdom of Judah had become the Persian province of Yehud. Also during this Persian period, the final redaction of the Pentateuch purportedly took place. This is the Babylonian captivity.

After the fall of Babylon to the Persian king Cyrus the Great in 539 BCE, exiled Judeans were permitted to return to Judah. Notice the dates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity

Then came Maimonides who codified the 613 Mitzvot Laws. He died in 1204 AD. Moses was born in 1522 B.C.

During his lifetime, most Jews greeted Maimonides' writings on Jewish law and ethics with acclaim and gratitude, even as far away as Iraq and Yemen. Yet, while Maimonides rose to become the revered head of the Jewish community in Egypt, his writings also had vociferous critics, particularly in Spain. Nonetheless, he was posthumously acknowledged as among the foremost rabbinical decisors and philosophers in Jewish history, and his copious work comprises a cornerstone of Jewish scholarship. His fourteen-volume Mishneh Torah still carries significant canonical authority as a codification of Talmudic law. He is sometimes known as "ha Nesher ha Gadol" (the great eagle) in recognition of his outstanding status as a bona fide exponent of the Oral Torah.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides

So, are you contending that Moses had nothing to do with the Torah?

 

[DeighAnn]

Abraham Justified by Faith​

Rom 4:1 What, then, are we to say about Abraham, our human ancestor?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by actions, he would have had something to boast about—though not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Rom 4:4 Now to someone who works, wages are not considered a gift but an obligation.
Rom 4:5 However, to someone who does not work, but simply believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Likewise, David also speaks of the blessedness of the person whom God regards as righteous apart from actions:
Rom 4:7 "How blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered!
Rom 4:8 How blessed is the person whose sins the Lord will never charge against him!"
Rom 4:9 Now does this blessedness come to the circumcised alone, or also to the uncircumcised? For we say, "Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness."
Rom 4:10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was he circumcised or uncircumcised? He had not yet been circumcised, but was uncircumcised.
Rom 4:11 Afterward he received the mark of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. Therefore, he is the ancestor of all who believe while uncircumcised, in order that righteousness may be credited to them.
Rom 4:12 He is also the ancestor of the circumcised—those who are not only circumcised, but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

The Promise Realized Through Faith​

Rom 4:13 For the promise that he would inherit the world did not come to Abraham or to his descendants through the Law, but through the righteousness produced by faith.
Rom 4:14 For if those who were given the Law are the heirs, then faith is useless and the promise is worthless,
Rom 4:15 for the Law produces wrath. Now where there is no Law, neither can there be any violation of it.
Rom 4:16 Therefore, the promise is based on faith, so that it may be a matter of grace and may be guaranteed for all of Abraham's descendants—not only for those who were given the Law, but also for those who share the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.
Rom 4:17 As it is written, "I have made you the father of many nations." Abraham acted in faith when he stood in the presence of God, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence things that don't yet exist.

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Believing is counted for righteousness. This applies to those who have chosen to leave the law out of their lives as well as those who have kept the law a part of their lives.
Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
This is true of both sides. If the only thing being reckoned is "work" then yes it would be debt. But keeping the awareness of the law in ones lift does not mean they have any less the belief that salvation comes from anything other than Jesus.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Here again, keeping the laws revelant does not in anyway mean we are "working them" for righteousness. We believe on Him that justifieth the ungodly just the same.
Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Same feeling for those who regard and disregard the Law.
Romans 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
HERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE. THOSE WHO REGARD THE LAW, ACKNOWLEDGE THE SINS THEY COMMIT, THEY THEREFORE REPENT, ASK FORGIVENESS AND TO BE WASHED CLEAN BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB. THOSE DISREGARDING THE LAW, BELIEVE THEY HAVE NO SIN BECAUSE JESUS HAD NO SIN AND ???? JUST KEEP DOING AS THEY DO, I GUESS.
Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
ONLY SIN REPENTED OF IS BLOTTED OUT OF THE BOOK. SIN NOT REPENTED OF IS JUST ADDED TO THE LIST.
Romans 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Romans 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Romans 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Romans 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Those who regard the law know love and accept this just the same as those who disavow the law.
Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Those who regard the law are not looking to receive the promise in anyway connected with the law, but in the same way, through the righteousness of faith
Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
And this is about the promise
Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
IT HAS TO BE THE LEAST COMMON DENOMINATOR TO BE SURE IT IS OPEN TO ALL. WE WHO ACKNOWLEDGE THE LAW STILL KNOW JUST AS WELL IT IS OF FAITH THAT IT MIGHT BE OF GRACE AND ARE NOT LOOKING FOR THE LAW TO PLAY ANY PART.
Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Romans 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
Romans 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
Romans 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Romans 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Romans 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Keeping a regard of the law does not lessen BELIEF
Romans 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

 

[PS]

So, are you contending that Moses had nothing to do with the Torah?

Not at all, though I have been told the Torah was given to the people orally and written down later. They were after all in the wilderness and not with scribes in the temple.

Term used to denote the laws and statutes which, in addition to the Pentateuch, God gave to Moses. According to the rabbinical interpretation of Ex. xxxiv. 27, the words indicate that besides the written law——God gave orally to Moses other laws and maxims, as well as verbal explanations of the written law, enjoining him not to record these teachings, but to deliver them to the people by word of mouth (Giṭ. 60b; Yer. Meg. iv. 74a; comp. also IV Ezra [II Esdras] xiv.). The expression "Torah shebe-'al peh" denotes, therefore, "the law indicated in the word ' 'al peh,'" and hence only the law which was given to Moses orally. But even disregarding that Talmudic interpretation, the expression is equivalent to the Torah, which was given orally, not in writing.

http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11750-oral-law

 

[DeighAnn]

You seem to be confused about the sequence of events. Or have you bought into the nonsense of the Higher Critics? The Law was given around 1500 BC. The Babylonian exile took place around 600 BC.

Here's another way to look at this topic:

Those who reject the Law are literally "under the burden of the Law"

Those who receive the guidance of the Holy Spirit which writes the Law upon their heart, are no longer "under the burden of the Law" because they are in conformity with it!

Pauls words:

Gal 5:18 KJV But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

"under the law" would be better understood if we recognized it as a "term" that means buried by the immense pressure of something we cannot lift. But as Paul clarifies it: "But IF ye be led of the Spirit..." The Law is no longer an immense pressure!

Take a look:

Rom 7:18-25 KJV For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. (22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: (23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul recognizes his old carnal man is "under the Law"/buried by it, but through Jesus Christ he finds a renewed mind with which to serve the LAW!


Rom 8:7-11 KJV Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


The Spirit of life is righteousness! What is righteousness? Those who are not "under the law" but through the Spirit "Serve the Law"

This is solid, excellent verse choices. or verses choice or verses choices. IDK. Don't you love the Word? Perfect. Can I copy and paste to my computer?

 

[SimpleGardner]

Not at all, though I have been told the Torah was given to the people orally and written down later. They were after all in the wilderness and not with scribes in the temple.

Term used to denote the laws and statutes which, in addition to the Pentateuch, God gave to Moses. According to the rabbinical interpretation of Ex. xxxiv. 27, the words indicate that besides the written law——God gave orally to Moses other laws and maxims, as well as verbal explanations of the written law, enjoining him not to record these teachings, but to deliver them to the people by word of mouth (Giṭ. 60b; Yer. Meg. iv. 74a; comp. also IV Ezra [II Esdras] xiv.). The expression "Torah shebe-'al peh" denotes, therefore, "the law indicated in the word ' 'al peh,'" and hence only the law which was given to Moses orally. But even disregarding that Talmudic interpretation, the expression is equivalent to the Torah, which was given orally, not in writing.

http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11750-oral-law

Deu 31:24-26 NIV After Moses finished writing in a book the words of this law from beginning to end, (25) he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD: (26) "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.

 

[SimpleGardner]

This is solid, excellent verse choices. or verses choice or verses choices. IDK. Don't you love the Word? Perfect. Can I copy and paste to my computer?

We know if you ask Him whose words they truly are He would smile and say He gave them to you before you were born!

 

[PS]

Deu 31:24-26 NIV After Moses finished writing in a book the words of this law from beginning to end, (25) he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD: (26) "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.

That's OK. The Jewish encyclopedia obviously has it wrong.

Lights out time.

 

[SimpleGardner]

This is solid, excellent verse choices. or verses choice or verses choices. IDK. Don't you love the Word? Perfect. Can I copy and paste to my computer?

YES! I do love the Word of God. In so many ways he humbles us with more than ample validation of His truths! The Holy Spirit shares the joys of the establishment of truths by two or three witnesses!

 

[SimpleGardner]

That's OK. The Jewish encyclopedia obviously has it wrong.

Lights out time.

Be Well

 

[DeighAnn]

This is solid, excellent verse choices. or verses choice or verses choices. IDK. Don't you love the Word? Perfect. Can I copy and paste to my computer?

God can't dwell in us without the law being present.

 

[DeighAnn]

We know if you ask Him whose words they truly are He would smile and say He gave them to you before you were born!

Your gentle spirit really shines through. I am going to pray for some of that. Thank you

 

[3rdAngel]

I'm not a law-keeper, but I still haven't found a single piece of evidence -- in the Gospels -- that Jesus ever told us to stop keeping the Law. Should we rely solely on what Paul said?

Thanks this is an interesting thread. I have not read it all but I believe you are correct as it says in Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus has not come to abolish the law. If it is not abolished than it is still in force today. Paul, James and John all say that it's role is to give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; John 3:4 and James 2:10-11 to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith Galatians 3:20-22. It does make you think are we really following God's word of man made traditions. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and the OP.

God bless

 

[lightbearer]

You seem to be saying God gives certain people faith, whereas scripture tells us it is OUR faith that saves us.

No Scripture says,

Its not how I see it,

You are wrong. You are not to treat people any way you see fit.

 

[NayborBear]

That's OK. The Jewish encyclopedia obviously has it wrong.

Lights out time.

Well? It wouldn't be the first time the Jews got something wrong. would it?

 

[SimpleGardner]

Regarding the Law in the OT. Has anyone ever seen the; 7 year rule for credit?

The rules for the reporting of debts can be found in the Fair Credit Reporting Act, or FCRA. The act states that most negative items must be removed from your credit report seven years from the first date of delinquency.

Is this law derived from the Laws of God?

If so where?

And is this an isolated example that our nation does "works" IAW with the Torah? Or are there more?

 

[DeighAnn]

Regarding the Law in the OT. Has anyone ever seen the; 7 year rule for credit?

The rules for the reporting of debts can be found in the Fair Credit Reporting Act, or FCRA. The act states that most negative items must be removed from your credit report seven years from the first date of delinquency.

Is this law derived from the Laws of God?

If so where?

And is this an isolated example that our nation does "works" IAW with the Torah? Or are there more?

Where did everyone go?

 

[DeighAnn]

Where did everyone go?

What shall we set in the fire next?

 

[SimpleGardner]

What shall we set in the fire next?

Greetings DeighAnn,

Nice to see signs of life.

I posed my question above to hopefully start a conversation of just how much our nations were ordered upon the Laws of God. So many of the Hyper Grace/Never Law supporters would have to acknowledge that nations whose laws were crafted to reflect the Laws of God indicate that "Not Under Law" in a derogatory sense is a movement that has no place in an orderly society. Societies/Nations/Communities/Families, etc. Without a foundational commitment to the Laws of God, all the aforementioned, indeed the whole Earth, are chaotic and self destructive. Even those who argue against the "Law" keep the Law in their own homes, work etc.

When Jesus told us the only way to "Love" Him and essentially illuminating the gateway to fellowship with Him and the Heavenly Father He said plainly it is dependent upon our both "Knowing" and "Keeping" His Laws! How can they side step something so clearly spoken?

Joh 14:21 KJV He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Then He went further to explain that, not in reference to some past dispensation or under some "other" covenant, but to those who would be alive in "the last days", pretty sure we are very close, even in those "last Days":

Mat 7:21-23 KJV Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (without the law)

Who Jesus considers His Family is contingent upon one thing;

Mat 12:46-50 KJV While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. (47) Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. (48) But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? (49) And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! (50) For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

While it seems necessary to "beat this horse" over and over for those who just cannot..will not hear any truth regarding obedience/righteousness, I think we should fashion a thread where we list the Laws of God one at time and discuss them and their place in our lives. Fostering a passion such as David had when he spoke;

Psa 119:97-100 KJV MEM. O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day. (98) Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me. (99) I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation. (100) I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.

Jos 1:7-8 KJV Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest. (8) This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

Any thoughts?

 

[Dan_473]

Where did everyone go?

Hi DeighAnn,

I still check back every now and then. Did you want to respond to my last post? Or shall we consider the matter closed?

I don't understand the first part of your post, the part that ends with the word "seem". Was it supposed to continue on?

which part of my post were you referring to when you said it does not work better for you? The idea that 1st John 3:4 is better rendered as
sin is being without law?