Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[SimpleGardner]

4I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father. 5And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
Like of Israel or of Gentile? One people cant leave it out and one cant bring it in. A concern for me is when the books are opened, all unrepented sin is still written. If you believe there is no law, you can no longer believe in sin, so you never repent, therefore never being washed clean, so God never hears you, which is worse than being "under the law" because at least they got to be washed clean?? IDK how often they sacrificed, once a year?? but I know God said it had to be continual to cover the sin, and even that wasn't gonna get it done.

Greetings DeighAnn,

I value my fellowship with the Heavenly Father and sin compromises this and righteousness and learning His will (Laws) enhances this fellowship. In other words, how a man "walks" in this world, how he views sin and righteousness ultimately determine the quality of his fellowship with God. If I understand correctly, the doctrine of Hyper Grace says no matter how much you sin you have fellowship with God because Grace keeps you covered in Gods eyes. Now that concept is certainly alluring, but at the same time, to me, it skews my understanding of His Holiness. If a man walks upright before God, and that is his free will choice, then it pleases God that He has a "friend" in that man who purposely, consciously chooses righteousness because he sees that as of more value than sin, hence preferring Gods character over that of the fallen world. But if a man wishes to have the blessings of fellowship with God and continue in sin too then grace or not that man does not yet value God, His righteous character, and His righteous requirements. Righteousness is precious, far easier than a life of sin, full of love for all and orderly, while sin is the opposite.

 

[SimpleGardner]

The law is what leads us to Christ. So when there are people who think they are Christians and they think they are following the law they are inadvertently drawing people to Christ as well. As long as these people look into the law for themselves and find out there is much more to it than what they are being taught.

In that way, I am glad that there are legalists and judaizers and arminians. They are good for people who aren't quite Christians to start on the road towards Christ.

The only sad thing is that once that person comes to Christ they see they have to put those "childish" things away. They were good for a purpose but once that purpose is served they are pretty much useless. There is a MUCH better way than the one the legalists, judaizers and arminians follow. I knew a lot of these people when I was first coming to Christ and I truly was grateful for them. They are serving the Lords purpose for sure.

It is nice to know there are Christians out there that have actually come to Christ and know what Christianity ACTUALLY is so once you do come to Christ you aren't the only one out there. I was worried about that at first because when you are surrounded by legalists and judaizers and arminians it doesn't seem like there is any understanding of who the Lord is and what it is that He Does.

Nicely said...

I do not consider myself a legalist...truly, as you said the knowledge of sin through the Law brought me to a "Godly Sorrow" which brought me to repentance which brought me to Christ, which brought me to salvation.

As the years pass the relationship "in Christ" deepens, an new relationship begins to mature, the nature of His order begins to shine brighter. It was the Law that convicted, and grace with His sin offering that ushered me back into the presence of the Heavelny Father and then a prolonged presence allowed me to see His ways/requirements not from the old position of sin where the legalists hammer from, but from a position of awe and appreciation for His loving requirements. Requirements that dispel darkness and evil. Requirements that insure peace and stability, that establish honoring of Him and one another. This is the beauty of the Law that one Grace is utilized for repentance and fellowship with the Holy Spirit is focused on Knowing God and His ways, this is the new relationship with the law than no longer strikes fear and death, but brings forward life and joy! The Law never changes! Only we change relative to it! God Is His Laws, He never changes, we change in order to fellowship with Him anew!

 

[DeighAnn]

Greetings DeighAnn,

I value my fellowship with the Heavenly Father and sin compromises this and righteousness and learning His will (Laws) enhances this fellowship. In other words, how a man "walks" in this world, how he views sin and righteousness ultimately determine the quality of his fellowship with God. If I understand correctly, the doctrine of Hyper Grace says no matter how much you sin you have fellowship with God because Grace keeps you covered in Gods eyes. Now that concept is certainly alluring, but at the same time, to me, it skews my understanding of His Holiness. If a man walks upright before God, and that is his free will choice, then it pleases God that He has a "friend" in that man who purposely, consciously chooses righteousness because he sees that as of more value than sin, hence preferring Gods character over that of the fallen world. But if a man wishes to have the blessings of fellowship with God and continue in sin too then grace or not that man does not yet value God, His righteous character, and His righteous requirements. Righteousness is precious, far easier than a life of sin, full of love for all and orderly, while sin is the opposite.

So is this correct, as you understand it? (I am trying to make sure I understand what it is that is believed). The belief is that because a person believes that God as Christ was beaten and crucified, died and rose for the forgiveness of sin, that the only thing a person does for eternal life is confess that that is truth and they are then rendered no longer a sinner, so there is no repenting and they are to do nothing else. I have modified this question many many many times now and am sending it out this way so I can stop.

 

[PS]

It is if your doing it to maintain your salvation. Your trying to earn a gift by your works.

I said: "Refraining from wickedness is not works."
You said, "It is if your doing it to maintain your salvation. Your trying to earn a gift by your works."

How does not stealing and not murdering, when you should not be doing those things, earn you a gift?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I said: "Refraining from wickedness is not works."
You said, "It is if your doing it to maintain your salvation. Your trying to earn a gift by your works."

How does not stealing and not murdering, when you should not be doing those things, earn you a gift?

Do you or you not teach that those people will not be saved, especially f they keep DOING with those sins?

 

[PS]

Do you or you not teach that those people will not be saved, especially f they keep DOING with those sins?

Either way, our works do not saves us.

 

[SimpleGardner]

So is this correct, as you understand it? (I am trying to make sure I understand what it is that is believed). The belief is that because a person believes that God as Christ was beaten and crucified, died and rose for the forgiveness of sin, that the only thing a person does for eternal life is confess that that is truth and they are then rendered no longer a sinner, so there is no repenting and they are to do nothing else. I have modified this question many many many times now and am sending it out this way so I can stop.

Dear DeighAnn, I am almost convinced that we will always have questions, but there are large fundamental questions that we are compelled to answer so that we can build! The concept of "walking" with God is what the redeeming work of Jesus was about. He sought to reclaim what was lost. God does not delight in sinful flesh. Jesus restored our fellowship with God through enhanced understanding of the Law and then by way of repentance and His redeeming work of sacrifice and the grace of God brought us into a childlike audience with our Creator. He literally took us from a position of fear and death of the Law to a position where the graciousness of God and the teaching of His holy Spirit with our cooperative desire to learn His ways would lead us to a whole new relationship with God by studying and learning and joyously keeping what without Jesus's work and the Holy Spirit ,we once feared dreaded and hated. The carnal mind loves sin and wants the blessings of fellowship with God, but the spiritual mind hates sin and wants the fellowship with God which naturally brings blessings. The carnal mind uses God as a means to an end which is blessing. The spiritual mind has Fellowship with God as the end and recognizes righteousness as a means to that end. The spiritual mind recognized that without the Grace of God their seeking after righteousenss would be in vain, so the spiritual mind through the grace of God seeks after the righteousness that brings them closer to God. This is how we become more like Christ! The carnal mind uses grace to seek after blessings rather than righteousness frustrating the grace of God. This carnal pattern leaves one a child spiritually, bearing no fruits of righteousness. Too ling in this state will result in pruning, still too long and they will be cut off!.

This is all simplified, and there is always more detail, but essentially a walk with God provided by our redeemer/Saviours work is in essence being placed in a position where the Laws of God are an opportunity for blessing rather than a curse. All these opportunities are a gift from God, in other words an act of graciousness on Gods part to us who desire a righteous life/fellowship with Him.

 

[SimpleGardner]

Either way, our works do not saves us.

I'm not sure who you are talking to, but I agree...How can a desire for righteousness, furnished or gifted to us by God Himself through His Graceousness be considered something we earn! Rather we avail ourselves of the gift and the blessing of fellowship through righteousness is something we are thankful for. Is there any question that a child of God grows in righteousness as we remain in Christ?

1Jn 2:10-14 KJV He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. (11) But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes. (12) I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake. (13) I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. (14) I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

 

[DeighAnn]

Nicely said...

I do not consider myself a legalist...truly, as you said the knowledge of sin through the Law brought me to a "Godly Sorrow" which brought me to repentance which brought me to Christ, which brought me to salvation.

As the years pass the relationship "in Christ" deepens, an new relationship begins to mature, the nature of His order begins to shine brighter. It was the Law that convicted, and grace with His sin offering that ushered me back into the presence of the Heavelny Father and then a prolonged presence allowed me to see His ways/requirements not from the old position of sin where the legalists hammer from, but from a position of awe and appreciation for His loving requirements. Requirements that dispel darkness and evil. Requirements that insure peace and stability, that establish honoring of Him and one another. This is the beauty of the Law that one Grace is utilized for repentance and fellowship with the Holy Spirit is focused on Knowing God and His ways, this is the new relationship with the law than no longer strikes fear and death, but brings forward life and joy! The Law never changes! Only we change relative to it! God Is His Laws, He never changes, we change in order to fellowship with Him anew!

Dear DeighAnn, I am almost convinced that we will always have questions, but there are large fundamental questions that we are compelled to answer so that we can build! The concept of "walking" with God is what the redeeming work of Jesus was about. He sought to reclaim what was lost. God does not delight in sinful flesh. Jesus restored our fellowship with God through enhanced understanding of the Law and then by way of repentance and His redeeming work of sacrifice and the grace of God brought us into a childlike audience with our Creator. He literally took us from a position of fear and death of the Law to a position where the graciousness of God and the teaching of His holy Spirit with our cooperative desire to learn His ways would lead us to a whole new relationship with God by studying and learning and joyously keeping what without Jesus's work and the Holy Spirit ,we once feared dreaded and hated. The carnal mind loves sin and wants the blessings of fellowship with God, but the spiritual mind hates sin and wants the fellowship with God which naturally brings blessings. The carnal mind uses God as a means to an end which is blessing. The spiritual mind has Fellowship with God as the end and recognizes righteousness as a means to that end. The spiritual mind recognized that without the Grace of God their seeking after righteousenss would be in vain, so the spiritual mind through the grace of God seeks after the righteousness that brings them closer to God. This is how we become more like Christ! The carnal mind uses grace to seek after blessings rather than righteousness frustrating the grace of God. This carnal pattern leaves one a child spiritually, bearing no fruits of righteousness. Too ling in this state will result in pruning, still too long and they will be cut off!.

This is all simplified, and there is always more detail, but essentially a walk with God provided by our redeemer/Saviours work is in essence being placed in a position where the Laws of God are an opportunity for blessing rather than a curse. All these opportunities are a gift from God, in other words an act of graciousness on Gods part to us who desire a righteous life/fellowship with Him.

I do understand keeping the law (and all the goes with that side of the debate) What I don't understand is Nots. Can you explain the side of the Nots? and what and how they believe?

 

[SimpleGardner]

I do understand keeping the law (and all the goes with that side of the debate) What I don't understand is Nots. Can you explain the side of the Nots? and what and how they believe?

This is a delimma that has been debated since the days of the Apostles. Even the Apostle James, brother of Jesus himself demanded that Paul clarify his position on the law by coming to Jerusalem and making a vow before all to see that he/Paul beleived in keeping the law, and Paul did so. Peter commented that Pauls writings are hard to understand. All that said, many twist the meaning of the English translation of the greek manuscripts of Pauls words to almost reject the Laws of God which Paul himself declares as right and just and good. In my most gracious terms the "nots" as you put it are so zealous to make the point that our salvation is a gracious gift, not earned, but given so we cannot boast that they seemingly shout down anyone who agrees, but still loves the laws of God! I know, why hate those who acknowledge our salvation is not of works, but of grace, who still recognize that the same grace that saved them is there to lead them to understand Gods will and walk in it!?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Either way, our works do not saves us.

Then we can’t lose salvation based on how good or bad we are that is good to know

 

[DeighAnn]

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

And it was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen bright, pure For the fine linen, THE RIGHTEOUS ACTS of the saints, is.

ACTION ON OUR PART

Righteous acts 1345 dikaioma a thing pronounced by God to be righteous, a righteous deed a judicially-approved act, properly, an act God approves, focusing on its RESULT what has been established and ordained by law, an ordinance: that which has been deemed right so as to have the force of law "A RIGHTEOUS ACT OR DEED" of an appointment of God having the force of law,

From 1344 dikaioo to show to be righteous, declare righteous - properly, approved, especially in a legal, authoritative sense; to show what is right

1343 dikaiosune to what is deemed right by the Lord after His examination

1342 dikaios just, especially, just in the eyes of God righteous; the elect. Righteous relates to conformity to God's standard justice

 

[PS]

Then we can’t lose salvation based on how good or bad we are that is good to know

God looks on the heart. Perhaps we should all ask ourselves the question, "What will God find there?"

(1) When Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on the hill. After taking his seat, his disciples came to him,
(2) and he began to teach them, saying:
(3) "How blessed are those who are destitute in spirit, because the kingdom from heaven belongs to them!
(4) "How blessed are those who mourn, because it is they who will be comforted!
(5) "How blessed are those who are humble, because it is they who will inherit the earth!
(6) "How blessed are those who are hungry and thirsty for righteousness, because it is they who will be satisfied!
(7) "How blessed are those who are merciful, because it is they who will receive mercy!
(8) "How blessed are those who are pure in heart, because it is they who will see God!
(9) "How blessed are those who make peace, because it is they who will be called God's children!
(10) "How blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, because the kingdom from heaven belongs to them!
(11) "How blessed are you whenever people insult you, persecute you, and say all sorts of evil things against you falsely because of me!
(12) Rejoice and be extremely glad, because your reward in heaven is great! That's how they persecuted the prophets who came before you."

Mat 5:1-12

 

[Dan_473]

Jesus was a witness in his neighbourhood, and despite everything he never told us, or anyone to use a sword. People are putting words into his mouth he never said.

That's right! Jesus was a witness in his neighborhood, he told the 11 directly to go into all the world. He told the 12 to buy a sword, but he did not say to use it. When the 12 say that they have two swords between them, Jesus says that's enough.

I've heard of Amish people, pacifists, who at certain times in history have kept an ax inside their house. Not to defend their belongings, but to defend the other humans inside of the house.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God looks on the heart. Perhaps we should all ask ourselves the question, "What will God find there?"

(1) When Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on the hill. After taking his seat, his disciples came to him,
(2) and he began to teach them, saying:
(3) "How blessed are those who are destitute in spirit, because the kingdom from heaven belongs to them!
(4) "How blessed are those who mourn, because it is they who will be comforted!
(5) "How blessed are those who are humble, because it is they who will inherit the earth!
(6) "How blessed are those who are hungry and thirsty for righteousness, because it is they who will be satisfied!
(7) "How blessed are those who are merciful, because it is they who will receive mercy!
(8) "How blessed are those who are pure in heart, because it is they who will see God!
(9) "How blessed are those who make peace, because it is they who will be called God's children!
(10) "How blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, because the kingdom from heaven belongs to them!
(11) "How blessed are you whenever people insult you, persecute you, and say all sorts of evil things against you falsely because of me!
(12) Rejoice and be extremely glad, because your reward in heaven is great! That's how they persecuted the prophets who came before you."

Mat 5:1-12

So then your saying we can affect salvation, by how good and bad aren can you make up your mind??

 

[Dan_473]

How do we love the Lord our God with all our heart? by faith and faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God and the Word of God says:

John 3:4 WHOSOEVER COMMITTETH SIN TRANSGRESSETH ALSO THE LAW: FOR SIN IS TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW

SIN 266 HAMARTIA - A SIN, FAILURE, whether it occurs by omission or commission, in thought and feeling or in speech and action, that which is done wrong, committed or resultant sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act ( more to read and study on this)

COMMITTETH 4160 TO MAKE, DO

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
offend 4625 skandalon - a stick for bait (of a trap), generally an offense, a snare, stumbling-block, cause for error. an offense, putting a negative cause-and-effect relationship into motion.

I don't look to the law to find righteousness, I just don't get rid of it, or dismiss it, or ignore it, or think it has no value or bearing on me and my walk with God
You don't muzzle an ox because that is his pay. You work you get paid. You don't treat one of Gods animals any different. But I am missing the connection.

Without the law, there is no sin, without sin there is no repentance any need for grace then? That is unacceptable. You choose. Law or Lawless.

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isaiah 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isaiah 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
Isaiah 1:21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

I believe this is a better rendering

1 John 3: 4. Everyone who sins also commits lawlessness. Sin is lawlessness.

what John is saying is that sin is being without law. that's so true! a person who has no law is in sin.

when a person without the help of the holy Spirit reads the law, they come away thinking it's about things like muzzling oxen. but Paul shows an example of how it is actually about something very different.

 

[Dan_473]

Matthew 7: 12. Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them;
for this is the law and the prophets.

 

[PS]

So then your saying we can affect salvation, by how good and bad aren can you make up your mind??

These people, the destitute in spirit, those who mourn, are humble, hungry and thirsty for righteousness, merciful, pure in heart, and those who are persecuted have not done anything of themselves, but they will be blessed of God.

I dread to think what will happen to those who are proud in spirit, like some I could mention.

 

[DeighAnn]

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. We know Jesus fulfilled it, but it would seem

I believe this is a better rendering

1 John 3: 4. Everyone who sins also commits lawlessness. Sin is lawlessness.

what John is saying is that sin is being without law. that's so true! a person who has no law is in sin.

when a person without the help of the holy Spirit reads the law, they come away thinking it's about things like muzzling oxen. but Paul shows an example of how it is actually about something very different.

Though it does not work better for me that way, but I am glad it does for you! As of yet I have not been graced with the holy Spirit giving me the Spiritual truth of muzzling the ox. I see it as "if you hire someone to work, don't deny them pay" and possibly have the spiritual meaning of "if God has called you and you do your job He will recompense", or it could mean "if God has called you and has gifted you with salvation through the blood, you best be doing the work with the gifts he has graced you with". But I have not been personally lead.
I am starting to think that it means all 3 (or more?) things, all truth, to 3? different people at the same time, and still a couple months down the road, the truth of the meanings can switch amongst them, just depending on the WILL of GOD.

But as the holy Spirit works in my life, I definitely don't get it "all" at once. More like here a little there a little.

 

[SimpleGardner]

These people, the destitute in spirit, those who mourn, are humble, hungry and thirsty for righteousness, merciful, pure in heart, and those who are persecuted have not done anything of themselves, but they will be blessed of God.

I dread to think what will happen to those who are proud in spirit, like some I could mention.

Perhaps it would be more productive to speak openly regarding who you are speaking about....