Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[eternally-gratefull]

I see what you’re saying. I’ll think on your viewpoint more today.
I read that and see ‘one cannot he born again since they, those being addressed, already are’; 6 starts with a conjunction and those in 5:11-14 are true believers, however, are mere infants on milk just like the Corinthians.

How can one come to repentance and ask for the free gift if one had already repented and taken the gift? Its impossible for them to come back to repentance and seek the gift which was already given.

By me, having been truly converted prior, willfully sinning was I not “crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace”?
What if one continues even if the Holy Spirit tells them its wrong?
Does God take that lightly or ignore it?

Why doesn’t 1 John 2:19 use that term (Parapiptó)? I agree those described in 1 John 2:19 were not true converts to begin with

Thats a good point, however, You will continue to sin, it is not a question of if, if we say we have no sin we decieve ourselves as John says.

what the author of hebrews is saying is that if salvation can be lost (if they can fall away) they can not be renewed, Unless christ comes again and pays for the sin he forgot to pay for the first time, which caused a loss of salvation ) to me the context is going back to law. And what the law teaches, that sacrifice must occure at the very least once a year to be redeemed (atond for) from Your sins of that year

 

[notuptome]

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

At one time a slave to sin and unable to change. Now a child of God and you think you can change back? You cannot save yourself from the penalty and lordship of sin. You cannot rid yourself from the Lordship of Christ and again be lost. You lack the authority to do and are subject to the powers over you.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[oyster67]

The Scripture is crystal clear on the matter. Take it or leave it. Leaving it = eternal damnation...

Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

 

[Poinsetta]

Salvation can be lost; unless you know Jesus Christ 😇

 

[oyster67]

We must abide in the vine. Abiding is not a work.

John
15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We must abide in the vine. Abiding is not a work.

John
15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

So if your doing it of your own power. Its not work? Since when?

You work for a wage,

A gift is freely given.

If your doing all the work to get or keep your salvation. it is works. Period!

 

[UnderGrace]

The Scripture is crystal clear on the matter. Take it or leave it. Leaving it = eternal damnation...

Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Well, we all sin willfully so then we are all in a very precarious position according to your position.

When the writer of Hebrews is stating "sin wilfully" he/she is referencing sin outside of the law ....where there was no sacrifice for sin.
In the Old Testament there is not a sacrifice for deliberate sin or sins done intentionally.

Forgiveness for those sins was always based on seeking God's grace and forgiveness.

You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, You willnot despise.
Psalm 51:16-17 NIV

 

[Chester]

I see what you’re saying. I’ll think on your viewpoint more today.
I read that and see ‘one cannot he born again since they, those being addressed, already are’; 6 starts with a conjunction and those in 5:11-14 are true believers, however, are mere infants on milk just like the Corinthians.

How can one come to repentance and ask for the free gift if one had already repented and taken the gift? Its impossible for them to come back to repentance and seek the gift which was already given.

Why doesn’t 1 John 2:19 use that term (Parapiptó)? I agree those described in 1 John 2:19 were not true converts to begin with

Hebrews 6:4-6 does not say that once a person falls away that they can never come back to Christ.

It says that the one who is continuing to "put Christ to an open shame" and is continuing to "crucify him again" cannot be "renewed to repentance. The "continuing" comes from the use here of the Greek present tense.

Can one be renewed to repentance if he stops continuing to put Christ to an open shame? This text does not answer that question either way.

 

[Chester]

So if your doing it of your own power. Its not work? Since when?

You work for a wage,

A gift is freely given.

If your doing all the work to get or keep your salvation. it is works. Period!

Hey, oyster67 are you "doing it of your own power"?

 

[Chester]

We must abide in the vine. Abiding is not a work.

John
15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

Hey oyster67 - I have a question for you - see post # 149

 

[Ahwatukee]

Overall, I just wanted to add something to what I said earlier, that if you're walking in perseverance and Holiness, confessing sin and in right standing with Christ, you shouldn't have to worry about the question of whether you can lose your salvation. But I also refuse to walk around in fear that if I do something, I will be condemned. This is something I tend to struggle with a lot. I think the right way to view this is to believe that if I mess up, I come back to Christ, make right with Him and move on. I don't allow sin to govern the way I think and act. Its something I need to remind myself of every day.

Good day ToastAndTea,

I totally agree with all that you said as well. Those who are continuing in faith in Christ have no reason to fear their loss of salvation and eternal life. I hope that no one took it that way. I definitely don't want any believer to be worried about their salvation. It is those who stop having faith and willfully go back to living according to the sinful nature, (complete apostasy), that I was referring to. If we mess up as Christians, we know that we have His promise that when we sin, if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness.

 

[stonesoffire]

I just made a comment on another thread about the Oxford study bibles footnotes. I believe what this one footnote explains about this topic.

Those who have sat with us but didn’t remain with us never came into the Light unto Regeneration. They came under the light but not into. There’s the difference.

I can actually say that once I was this way. As a child I heard the salvation message many times, went forward because of conviction, but never to the point of receiving Jesus as Lord of my life, died to self with Jesus and rose from this as a new creation in Christ.

We can know about Him, talk about what we hear about Him....but there’s that moment of being broken (rebellion broken) to receive Him for we know He alone is our help.

That may be all we know for new life in Him to begin. And as I’ve written so many times before...in means a fixed position.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Then it is not a gift, It is a reward, or wage for our ability to remain in faith. Thus it is not of grace. It is of works.

Do you consider having faith as a work? Surely you must believe that faith is necessary for salvation? And not just a one time confession, but a way of life. Jesus shed His blood, however in order to receive the promise of salvation and eternal life, it requires having faith in Him. As His word says "Whoever has the Son has life. But whoever does not have the Son does not have life." In other words, it is not a blanket salvation where everyone is just saved whether they believe or not. It requires faith to receive the promises.

Yes, we are saved,, It does not say we are being saved, or we MIGHT be saved, it was literally have been saved. (In the greek saved is in the perfect tense, it means it is a completed action.) If salvation could possibly be lost in fancy circumstance. Then we have not been saved (perfect tense) at best, we have started our salvation process. But must complete it. Meaning it is on us, Not on God.

Apply was you said above to the characteristics of the scripture below:

==============================================================
Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlements, a debtor was brought to him owing ten thousand talents.e 25Since the man was unable to pay, the master ordered that he be sold to pay his debt, along with his wife and children and everything he owned.

26Then the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Have patience with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’

27His master had compassion on him, forgave his debt, and released him.

28But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii.f He grabbed him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe me.’

29So his fellow servant fell down and begged him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you back.’

30But he refused. Instead, he went and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay his debt.

31When his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed, and they went and recounted all of this to their master.

32Then the master summoned him and declared, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave all your debt because you begged me. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed.

35That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”
===============================================================

In the parable above the king represents the Lord, the servant represents the believer and the debt that he owed represents our sin. The servant is forgiven for all his debt, but he was unwilling to forgive another servant his debt. So, he was initially forgiven for his debt/sin, but then because he would not forgive his fellow servant, the debt was reinstated.

 

[Poinsetta]

People reverse Salvation way too much :0

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hey, oyster67 are you "doing it of your own power"?

Is he doing maintain his salvation?

From what he posted, it sure appeared that way.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

People reverse Salvation way too much :0

I do not understand this either, If your fith is in God. Why question if it could ever be lost. Can God lose you? He is the one who rescued you (perfect tense) right??

 

[UnderGrace]

​

People reverse Salvation way too much :0

can you elaborate?

 

[maxwel]

I believe the Bible is clear enough on this issue.

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" 2 Timothy 2:12 KJV

What part of this Verse do you not understand? I myself am 100 %ly sure that salvation loss is possible.

Not to be a wet blanket ... but uhh... the word salvation isn't even in that verse.


But ya know... believe whatever you want.

...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do you consider having faith as a work? Surely you must believe that faith is necessary for salvation? And not just a one time confession, but a way of life. Jesus shed His blood, however in order to receive the promise of salvation and eternal life, it requires having faith in Him. As His word says "Whoever has the Son has life. But whoever does not have the Son does not have life." In other words, it is not a blanket salvation where everyone is just saved whether they believe or not. It requires faith to receive the promises.

John 6, In jesus own words, It is the work of God we believe in the one he sent, No, Faith is not. Work. Because you did not do the work that enabled you to trust God.

Apply was you said above to the characteristics of the scripture below:

==============================================================
Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlements, a debtor was brought to him owing ten thousand talents.e 25Since the man was unable to pay, the master ordered that he be sold to pay his debt, along with his wife and children and everything he owned.

26Then the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Have patience with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’

27His master had compassion on him, forgave his debt, and released him.

28But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii.f He grabbed him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe me.’

29So his fellow servant fell down and begged him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you back.’

30But he refused. Instead, he went and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay his debt.

31When his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed, and they went and recounted all of this to their master.

32Then the master summoned him and declared, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave all your debt because you begged me. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed.

35That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”
===============================================================

In the parable above the king represents the Lord, the servant represents the believer and the debt that he owed represents our sin. The servant is forgiven for all his debt, but he was unwilling to forgive another servant his debt. So, he was initially forgiven for his debt/sin, but then because he would not forgive his fellow servant, the debt was reinstated.

So God is not honest,? He offers to give something he calls eternal life, you could not earn, And then takes it back if you do not earn it? (Making it conditional life not eternal)

He was stating a spiritual truth, how can we expect God to forgive us if we can not forgive others. If we have a problem with forgiveness, we need to look deep inside.

God does not offer us eternal life, then make it conditional.

I did not know you were a worker.. this saddens me.

 

[PennEd]

Do you consider having faith as a work? Surely you must believe that faith is necessary for salvation? And not just a one time confession, but a way of life. Jesus shed His blood, however in order to receive the promise of salvation and eternal life, it requires having faith in Him. As His word says "Whoever has the Son has life. But whoever does not have the Son does not have life." In other words, it is not a blanket salvation where everyone is just saved whether they believe or not. It requires faith to receive the promises.



Apply was you said above to the characteristics of the scripture below:

==============================================================
Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlements, a debtor was brought to him owing ten thousand talents.e 25Since the man was unable to pay, the master ordered that he be sold to pay his debt, along with his wife and children and everything he owned.

26Then the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Have patience with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’

27His master had compassion on him, forgave his debt, and released him.

28But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii.f He grabbed him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe me.’

29So his fellow servant fell down and begged him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you back.’

30But he refused. Instead, he went and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay his debt.

31When his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed, and they went and recounted all of this to their master.

32Then the master summoned him and declared, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave all your debt because you begged me. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed.

35That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”
===============================================================

In the parable above the king represents the Lord, the servant represents the believer and the debt that he owed represents our sin. The servant is forgiven for all his debt, but he was unwilling to forgive another servant his debt. So, he was initially forgiven for his debt/sin, but then because he would not forgive his fellow servant, the debt was reinstated.

Faith is a gift. God would have to take back the faith He gave you when you confessed with your mouth and believed in heart and were born again.

I’m sure you would agree that God isn’t going to revoke the gift He gave you.