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Those signs are metaphors that cannot be separated. its one sign using the whole. (all the metaphors) to make one point.
Not I will drink poison one day the get filled and the next make a unknown noise and claim it frame it .Then the next heal the sick or take a trip to the cemetery and raise a few heads. Those sign are especallity designed to hide the unseen spiritual understanding.
They follow every person who believes. Not something a parson works for. They are not used to put on a side show of self edification to the audience.
They will speak in the "new tongue". . . . the word of God (prophecy.) Not the same as divers kinds of tongues...…. prophecy after all the nations of the world as promised in Joel
In the name of the gospel it will drive out lying spirits and they will not be decieved by the false prophecy of men called a brood of vipers. .It as a poison will not harm them that have a new tongue the gospel .
You would have to first prove they are not metaphors used in that parable .But that would be like asking to look to the foundation of the law of spoken of in 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 and confirm the law .
Not I will drink poison one day the get filled and the next make a unknown noise and claim it frame it .Then the next heal the sick or take a trip to the cemetery and raise a few heads. Those sign are especallity designed to hide the unseen spiritual understanding.
They follow every person who believes. Not something a parson works for. They are not used to put on a side show of self edification to the audience.
They will speak in the "new tongue". . . . the word of God (prophecy.) Not the same as divers kinds of tongues...…. prophecy after all the nations of the world as promised in Joel
In the name of the gospel it will drive out lying spirits and they will not be decieved by the false prophecy of men called a brood of vipers. .It as a poison will not harm them that have a new tongue the gospel .
You would have to first prove they are not metaphors used in that parable .But that would be like asking to look to the foundation of the law of spoken of in 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 and confirm the law .
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Thats my point, (please do not take this a s a personal attack it is not) thats why it would worry me, (personally)
If someone did that to me, I would tell them to back off!! Lol
Now if I was over in china, and my friend who I know does not speak chinese started to talk to these people. Or if I suddenly understood those people in their own language, and even started to speak their own language so they could understand. And was able to share the gospel!!
Now that would bring me great joy, so much I can not even fathom!
If someone did that to me, I would tell them to back off!! Lol
Now if I was over in china, and my friend who I know does not speak chinese started to talk to these people. Or if I suddenly understood those people in their own language, and even started to speak their own language so they could understand. And was able to share the gospel!!
Now that would bring me great joy, so much I can not even fathom!
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I didn't tell her to back off because I know her. I've seen her grow from a girl who used to curse and swear from time to time, to someone who never does. I've seen her change in many positive ways since coming to Christ. I'll admit I am on the fence about the this particular issue. Maybe I shouldn't be since I witnessed her praying over me in that manner. All I know for sure is Christ died for me. I don't understand this particular issue very well and just remain without an opinion.
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I think I am a little like you. I am not a true cessationailist. I believe if God wants to use any gift, he can and will. Just do not see the way some use it how that can be from God. If you were blessed by your friend, then Amen,, god works in mysterious ways, But I would not think that is the norm.
And as far as this thread goes. Some are making it into a salvation issue, which is preaching a different gospel. Which it is our duty to make sure this false gospel is overcome, and try to reach these people..
And as far as this thread goes. Some are making it into a salvation issue, which is preaching a different gospel. Which it is our duty to make sure this false gospel is overcome, and try to reach these people..
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Then those laid hands on in acts to recieve the anointing after salvation were done in vain.
In One instance they were laid hands on and they got the baptism in the Holy Spirit before salvation
Also in the 10 virgin parable the measure of the Holy Spirit is separate from salvation (their virginity).
The foolish were saved (virgins) but foolishly neglected the need for EXTRA OIL.
The ONLY thing making the wise wise was EXTRA OIL.
That was the ONLY difference.
(Which vividly,vividly,addresses the salvation vs Baptism in the Holy Spirit dynamic.)
It is undeniable. They are two COMPLETELY separate arenas of our walk.
We see it also with Jesus . His anointing had nothing to do with salvation.
That also is a vivid example.
The Holy Spirit and the father and son are inseparable.
They are one.
And yet They chose a walk outside of any need for salvation with Jesus incarnation.
So Jesus had a MEASURE of the Spirit before he was baptised in the Holy Spirit.
Salvation is indirectly connected to the Anointing.
Salvation brings a measure of the anointing,then,the baptism in the Holy Spirit a greater measure.
There is a third anointing which is given to us through obedience.
(That is why some recieve the Baptism in the Holy Spirit,and speak in tongues,but by neglecting obedience are poor representations of the kingdom)
It's all there and is connected,but not through cherry picking with a doctrinal prism.
In One instance they were laid hands on and they got the baptism in the Holy Spirit before salvation
Also in the 10 virgin parable the measure of the Holy Spirit is separate from salvation (their virginity).
The foolish were saved (virgins) but foolishly neglected the need for EXTRA OIL.
The ONLY thing making the wise wise was EXTRA OIL.
That was the ONLY difference.
(Which vividly,vividly,addresses the salvation vs Baptism in the Holy Spirit dynamic.)
It is undeniable. They are two COMPLETELY separate arenas of our walk.
We see it also with Jesus . His anointing had nothing to do with salvation.
That also is a vivid example.
The Holy Spirit and the father and son are inseparable.
They are one.
And yet They chose a walk outside of any need for salvation with Jesus incarnation.
So Jesus had a MEASURE of the Spirit before he was baptised in the Holy Spirit.
Salvation is indirectly connected to the Anointing.
Salvation brings a measure of the anointing,then,the baptism in the Holy Spirit a greater measure.
There is a third anointing which is given to us through obedience.
(That is why some recieve the Baptism in the Holy Spirit,and speak in tongues,but by neglecting obedience are poor representations of the kingdom)
It's all there and is connected,but not through cherry picking with a doctrinal prism.
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It is the answer . Mums the word …. no matter what kind of reasoning a person offers to help they still refuse to hear . . The "Yet for all that the lord has given us they refuse to research ...
Sign as wonderment seekers must according to the history of their church not give up this lying wonderment called. . . "getting filled a mysticism", No faith . Faith comes by hearing God not spooky noises that peep, and that mutter .Again following after the familiar spirits of those who seek after a sign and wonders gospel according to their church history..
The Catholics perform the same (we are the church) using what they call "church history" using their sect as some sort of standard for Christianity. The No sign, no evidence, no filling up till next week .. . false gospel .
And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? Isaiah 8:20
When you use church history and your church as the standard it is the law. Can't serve apposing laws.
I have been attempting to see if brother Waggles would look to the foundation of the law. But it must not be part of their church history either .It seems like the "yet for all" that …...just does not get heard according to the history of their church .
Isaiah 28:11-13 King James Version (KJV) For with stammering lips and another tongue (other than Hebrew) will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
1 Corinthians 14:20-22 King James Version (KJV)20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. In the law "it is written", With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
Maybe they should stay away from signs it seem they confuse them . Not knowing up from down curse from blessing. Foundation (Isaiah a 28) from imagination.
Waggles....What does the sign of tongues confirm. Not to be confused with the doctrine of tongues which clearly is God bringing new revelations after the new manner spoken of in Joel The language of God's tongue.
Sign as wonderment seekers must according to the history of their church not give up this lying wonderment called. . . "getting filled a mysticism", No faith . Faith comes by hearing God not spooky noises that peep, and that mutter .Again following after the familiar spirits of those who seek after a sign and wonders gospel according to their church history..
The Catholics perform the same (we are the church) using what they call "church history" using their sect as some sort of standard for Christianity. The No sign, no evidence, no filling up till next week .. . false gospel .
And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? Isaiah 8:20
When you use church history and your church as the standard it is the law. Can't serve apposing laws.
I have been attempting to see if brother Waggles would look to the foundation of the law. But it must not be part of their church history either .It seems like the "yet for all" that …...just does not get heard according to the history of their church .
Isaiah 28:11-13 King James Version (KJV) For with stammering lips and another tongue (other than Hebrew) will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
1 Corinthians 14:20-22 King James Version (KJV)20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. In the law "it is written", With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
Maybe they should stay away from signs it seem they confuse them . Not knowing up from down curse from blessing. Foundation (Isaiah a 28) from imagination.
Waggles....What does the sign of tongues confirm. Not to be confused with the doctrine of tongues which clearly is God bringing new revelations after the new manner spoken of in Joel The language of God's tongue.
There are way too many testimonies and conversions of people who experienced that very thing.
It's like you telling John that his vision on patmose was all in his mind.
A mans testimony is his Jordan.
The man converted has a story to tell.
You can poo poo all the ones outside your doctrine. Means nothing to a man that "been there ,done that"
"Ha,ha,ha,you really want me to believe a donkey will ever speak sentences to a human? That will never happen. Keep Fantacizing in your mind"
Pssst.....it already did once.
It's like you telling John that his vision on patmose was all in his mind.
A mans testimony is his Jordan.
The man converted has a story to tell.
You can poo poo all the ones outside your doctrine. Means nothing to a man that "been there ,done that"
"Ha,ha,ha,you really want me to believe a donkey will ever speak sentences to a human? That will never happen. Keep Fantacizing in your mind"
Pssst.....it already did once.
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Nothing in Scripture prevents the signs from occurring separately.
Mark 16:17 says, "they will speak with new tongues" - tongues plural. It doesn't mean 'the gospel'. You're inventing things again, and they don't make sense according to Scripture.
Actually, it's on you to prove that they are metaphors, since you introduced the idea. That's the way debate works.
Mark 16:17 says, "they will speak with new tongues" - tongues plural. It doesn't mean 'the gospel'. You're inventing things again, and they don't make sense according to Scripture.
Actually, it's on you to prove that they are metaphors, since you introduced the idea. That's the way debate works.
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They did it that way.
They imparted what they had.
The 10 virgin parable and the man healed by the gate are both impartation dynamics.
Others ,in my understanding have recieved the baptism with nobody around.
God is sovereign.
I don't know if it HAS to be by laying on of Hands...just know what it says happened and that is what happened to me.
If it comes another way...amen to that!
They imparted what they had.
The 10 virgin parable and the man healed by the gate are both impartation dynamics.
Others ,in my understanding have recieved the baptism with nobody around.
God is sovereign.
I don't know if it HAS to be by laying on of Hands...just know what it says happened and that is what happened to me.
If it comes another way...amen to that!
Yes sir Dan, only those who believe in Christ would be saved. Water baptism only follows as an act of obedience which is a part of the so called GC but not the Gospel. The preaching of the Gospel to the lost once believed are the candidates of waters of baptism and discipleship continues unto the growth of the saints via the preaching of the words of God.
God bless
God bless
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I would certainly agree that perfect is not the canon of scripture and I would also state that God still speaks and people still hear
each person must decide in their own hearts if they actually believe the Acts record with two separate indications regarding the Holy Spirit, sealing and then baptizing in (for power as Jesus said)
I have skimmed over the responses a little. it is the usual backwash of excuses and denial so I will just leave it at that as this thread alone has probably given every response possible to those who do not see what is plainly written
while I certainly believe the Bible is the word of God, I do not have a relationship with a book nor do I consider it the last thing God ever spoke or put into the hearts of men to pass on
some people seem to think that is so, and their responses reflect that
thankfully, that is not the end and their ideas do not reflect what so many of us know to be true. God still baptizes in the Holy Spirit and that which is perfect has not come.
Question: "What is the meaning of perfect in 1 Corinthians 13:10?"
Answer: First Corinthians 13:10 says, “When that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away” (KJV). The ESV puts it this way: “When the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.” The “in part” or “partial” things are the gifts of prophecy, knowledge, and tongues (verses 8–9). There will be a time when these gifts will cease because something better (“that which is perfect”) will replace them. Perfect means “complete”—the incomplete will be replaced by the complete. There is some debate as to what the coming of the “perfect” thing is. The two most common views are the completion of the Bible and the glorification of believers in heaven.
It is our view that the “perfect” thing to come is the glorification of believers in heaven, or, more properly, the eternal state. The completion of the Bible did not put an end to the gift of prophecy (“forth-telling” or preaching) or knowledge (understanding of Scripture). The church is continually being edified today by Spirit-filled preachers and teachers who exercise these gifts. But, for the time being, we are limited in our understanding: “We know in part and we prophesy in part” (1 Corinthians 13:9). When we get to heaven, the “partial” things will give way to the “perfect,” and preaching and teaching will no longer be needed.
What about the gift of tongues, which is mentioned alongside prophecy and knowledge in 1 Corinthians 13:8 (but not in verse 9)? The precise wording of verse 8 may hold a clue: the prophecies are said to “cease”; knowledge is said to “pass away”; and tongues are said to “be stilled” (in contrast to love, which “never fails”). Paul uses one Greek verb in reference to the completion of prophecy and knowledge, and a completely different Greek verb in reference to the completion of tongues. The implication is that prophecy and knowledge will be “rendered inoperative or abolished” by an external force, but the gift of tongues will ceaseon its own. So, when the perfect comes, prophecy and knowledge are actively ended, but tongues will already have ended.
First Corinthians 13:11–12 says, “When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” When shall we see face to face? When shall we know fully, even as we are fully known? This will occur when we pass from this life and enter God’s glorious presence in heaven (see 1 John 3:2). When we are glorified in heaven, the perfect will have come, and we will truly have put childish ways behind us.
each person must decide in their own hearts if they actually believe the Acts record with two separate indications regarding the Holy Spirit, sealing and then baptizing in (for power as Jesus said)
I have skimmed over the responses a little. it is the usual backwash of excuses and denial so I will just leave it at that as this thread alone has probably given every response possible to those who do not see what is plainly written
while I certainly believe the Bible is the word of God, I do not have a relationship with a book nor do I consider it the last thing God ever spoke or put into the hearts of men to pass on
some people seem to think that is so, and their responses reflect that
thankfully, that is not the end and their ideas do not reflect what so many of us know to be true. God still baptizes in the Holy Spirit and that which is perfect has not come.
Question: "What is the meaning of perfect in 1 Corinthians 13:10?"
Answer: First Corinthians 13:10 says, “When that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away” (KJV). The ESV puts it this way: “When the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.” The “in part” or “partial” things are the gifts of prophecy, knowledge, and tongues (verses 8–9). There will be a time when these gifts will cease because something better (“that which is perfect”) will replace them. Perfect means “complete”—the incomplete will be replaced by the complete. There is some debate as to what the coming of the “perfect” thing is. The two most common views are the completion of the Bible and the glorification of believers in heaven.
It is our view that the “perfect” thing to come is the glorification of believers in heaven, or, more properly, the eternal state. The completion of the Bible did not put an end to the gift of prophecy (“forth-telling” or preaching) or knowledge (understanding of Scripture). The church is continually being edified today by Spirit-filled preachers and teachers who exercise these gifts. But, for the time being, we are limited in our understanding: “We know in part and we prophesy in part” (1 Corinthians 13:9). When we get to heaven, the “partial” things will give way to the “perfect,” and preaching and teaching will no longer be needed.
What about the gift of tongues, which is mentioned alongside prophecy and knowledge in 1 Corinthians 13:8 (but not in verse 9)? The precise wording of verse 8 may hold a clue: the prophecies are said to “cease”; knowledge is said to “pass away”; and tongues are said to “be stilled” (in contrast to love, which “never fails”). Paul uses one Greek verb in reference to the completion of prophecy and knowledge, and a completely different Greek verb in reference to the completion of tongues. The implication is that prophecy and knowledge will be “rendered inoperative or abolished” by an external force, but the gift of tongues will ceaseon its own. So, when the perfect comes, prophecy and knowledge are actively ended, but tongues will already have ended.
First Corinthians 13:11–12 says, “When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” When shall we see face to face? When shall we know fully, even as we are fully known? This will occur when we pass from this life and enter God’s glorious presence in heaven (see 1 John 3:2). When we are glorified in heaven, the perfect will have come, and we will truly have put childish ways behind us.
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I would like to add that the Bible is not meant as a weapon to shut people up the way it is being used here
shooting verses of scripture taken out of context proves nothing but a person's desire to display the opposite of love
it is interesting to me to see the vitriol and the false accusations and then the denial from the same people, that they
are doing that
I think most of us who are speaking in tongues and or exhibiting other gifts of the Holy Spirit have a desire that others
should experience this endowment of God upon those who are His. of course there is also anger at times, we are still
flesh after all
however, I am also beginning to see the opposition almost has a life of it's own
so, to those who are filled I say 'keep on with what God has entrusted you with and do pray for understanding and discernment'
shooting verses of scripture taken out of context proves nothing but a person's desire to display the opposite of love
it is interesting to me to see the vitriol and the false accusations and then the denial from the same people, that they
are doing that
I think most of us who are speaking in tongues and or exhibiting other gifts of the Holy Spirit have a desire that others
should experience this endowment of God upon those who are His. of course there is also anger at times, we are still
flesh after all
however, I am also beginning to see the opposition almost has a life of it's own
so, to those who are filled I say 'keep on with what God has entrusted you with and do pray for understanding and discernment'
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Hi I would agree with the principle you offered but because of the context of water baptism in John 3:25 -26 .I think the water baptism has an old testament foundation . . . a desire to enter the priesthood of believers . Today after the new order. Jesus as the Son of man our example as a kingdom of priests who was not eligible to become a priest .He was of the tribe of Judah. It as a shadow has no redeeming value. John the last Levi . He was used to introduce or make the way of Melchedik our high priest continually without beginning and end.
Again no redeeming value but has value in ceremonies .Either would express joy as a hope. No judgement in respect to ceremonial shadows .
Again no redeeming value but has value in ceremonies .Either would express joy as a hope. No judgement in respect to ceremonial shadows .
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