Born Again Speaking in Tongues

mailmandan · Jul 2, 2019

Yes, all believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13). The book of Acts is a transitional book. Prior to Pentecost, believers did not yet receive the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 7:38-39). After Pentecost, at times, the receiving of the Holy Spirit was delayed until the apostles laid hands on them (exception, not the rule - Acts 8:17; 19:6). This seems to have caused much confusion. The Mormons have turned laying on of hands to receive the Holy Spirit into the rule for today. My wife grew up in the RLDS church (similar to LDS) and they did the same.

ok. you say you do not see where the Holy Spirit is received as in 'Baptism' ...( John said Jesus would baptize with fire and this is what he meant by that. folks here seem to think it is obligatory to leave that out...inconvenient truth etc IMO'...) but actually you have it all figured out that folks were saved WITHOUT the Holy Spirit and where does that happen? ummm? never? you seem to agree that we are sealed with the Spirit of God upon conversion but you do not acknowledge that the Holy Spirit came a different way on the day of Pentecost to those gathered in the upper room. you dismiss it and say they had not received the Holy Spirit yet...which means they were not really saved

that doesn't sound just a little bit off color some how? they were saved. they believed in Jesus...what does the Bible say? seems to say that salvation is belief in Jesus (meaning all His work etc for us and the fact He is our High Priest etc etc) so you are actually saying no one saved in the Upper Room? they could not be without the Holy Spirit

what was the purpose of the Holy Spirit descending then? well if they were not saved, then the purpose of the Holy Spirit descending on those in the upper room must have HAD to have been to CONVICT them of sin so they would accept Jesus.

that is logic and scripture.

but that is not what happened. what happened was the fulfillment of the prophecy by John that Jesus would baptize with fire...a symbol of the Holy Spirit. people (well some anyway) confuse this baptism with a general experience everyone has but they do not all have this experience because many do not believe in it!

not to be rude or anything, but what does where you wife grew up, or whatever experience she or anyone else that is NOT scriptural, have to do with actual scripture?

witches and other variant demonic cults speak in tongues and that does what exactly? makes the Bible wrong somehow? (I realize that is not what you are saying, but you are not in accord with scripture. THEY WERE ALREADY SAVED IN THE UPPER ROOM. either that, or the Holy Spirit convicted them to be saved. LOGIC. no other way or explanation.

some of these excuses people relate sound more like the spies who gave a negative report to Moses

I don't believe that ALL Pentecostals believe they are elite, yet there are certain people within Pentecostal circles who speak in tongues and act superior to believers who do not speak in tongues and yet certain others within Pentecostal circles believe that unless you speak in tongues you will not be saved. I know former Pentecostals who have left certain Pentecostal churches because of that kind of nonsense (including my older brother) but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

oh gee that's nice. let's just keep talking about how folks do not follow scriptural instruction and make excuses. excuses are not reasons. I'm not Pentecostal nor am I Charismatic. my background is probably more anti-tongues and gifts then most since I was taught they are not only not for today but also not God. I wasn't looking for reasons or excuses. but I do have my own mind and I can read and the Bible said something different then what I was taught

as far as people acting superior goes, there are thousands of saved and satisfied cessationists who look down their noses at those who are not cessationist. have you seen some of the renderings in this forum addressed to those who speak in tongues? the arrogance and smugness is over the top and yet they think nothing of it. MacArthur leads the way there and is arrogance personified

please. let's not focus on what is wrong about Christians anywhere and everywhere cause they come in all sizes and beliefs

I don't see in scripture where baptism with the Holy Spirit happens under two separate occasions. I see where ALL believers are baptized by one Spirit into one body (1 Corinthians 12:13) and certain believers are "filled" with the Holy Spirit to accomplish specific tasks, as we saw at Pentecost when they began to speak in other tongues and those listening heard them speak in their own language.

I just showed you in scripture where it is TWO DISTINCT things that occur regarding the Holy Spirit. but if you want to think that no one was saved, which is nonsense, then you will continue to say only one thing occurs. later on, I'm going to include more on this, but I have other things on the menu today too and better get to them

Do you mean "filled" with the Holy Spirit as they were in Acts 2:4?

do you really think that is what I mean? come on. really? we should be way past that. I certainly am.

I believe in miracles today, yet there are also counterfeit movements and deception. We need to be discerning.

well you can't be as discerning as you need to be without the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. which occurs either with salvation at times or later. it is not salvation. it is empowerment which is what the Bible states it is and Jesus said it was and John the Baptist said was coming. and is in fact here now and has been since Peter stood up and witnessed for his Savior

Becoming born again is a supernatural experience, along with living the Christian life, which is not without supernatural intervention, yet there are also counterfeit movements out there.

oh poof believe in a God you cannot see and His Son who shed His blood for you which you believe because someone wrote about it and you have EXPERIENCED the truth in your own life, but refuse what others have experienced and make excuses about discernment (the paradoxical implications there are staggering but I digress) and mumble something about supernatural intervention. (generic yous .. not meaning you only or even you personally)

sounds like a hit and miss to me. (yes a little of that sarcastic humor at the end there. but no ill intent. just a bit of a slap and hey ho wake up!)

CS1 seems to be the only Pentecostal on this thread that I had a reasonable conversation with. - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/born-again-speaking-in-tongues.185155/page-89

Way too much finger pointing and misunderstanding going on with others.

CS1 · Jul 2, 2019

Absolutely said:

I'm not sure what you mean here "The believers in acts received the baptism in the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands."

So I will, hold my comment until you please clarify for if you would like to?

7seasrekeyed · Jul 2, 2019

mailmandan said:

I didn't figure you for a bad actor

of course you cannot give an honest answer because the scripture disagrees with your twisting of it

this is very disappointing. too much finger pointing? with all your remarks about Pentecostals?

did you ever think that perhaps people respond in like manner to how you and others write?

7seasrekeyed · Jul 2, 2019

continuing to state that the baptism in the Holy Spirit happens at salvation is denying what the Bible says

very disappointing to learn, yet again, indoctrination and denial is so ingrained with a good number of posters here that they will continue to deny what is written and instead accuse and prefer to speak only in the negative

what is that exactly? (rhetorical question)

the dismissive attitude speaks volumes as well as the underlying pre-determined response

the real thing being said here, is 'don't give me any proof because I won't believe it anyway '

Acts 8

14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who went down and prayed for them, that they might receive the holy Spirit, 16 for it had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them and they received the holy Spirit.

if a person was/is baptized in the name of Jesus then that would be because they were already saved. these people were saved and then received the Holy Spirit as did the believers in Acts...ie in a different way or as a 2nd conformation of following Christ

18 [f]When Simon saw that the Spirit was conferred by the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me this power too, so that anyone upon whom I lay my hands may receive the holy Spirit.” 20 But Peter said to him, “May your money perish with you, because you thought that you could buy the gift of God with money. 21 You have no share or lot in this matter, for your heart is not upright before God. 22 Repent of this wickedness of yours and pray to the Lord that, if possible, your intention may be forgiven. 23 For I see that you are filled with bitter gall and are in the bonds of iniquity.” 24 Simon said in reply, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.” 25 So when they had testified and proclaimed the word of the Lord, they returned to Jerusalem and preached the good news to many Samaritan villages.

now apparently Simon did accept Jesus but he was not filled with the Holy Spirit. in this case, we see someone who was saved but the old nature was in charge and he desired what he saw, the miracles etc, as something he wanted rather then for the reasons Christ gives. say what you want, but it is still a second example of a second occasion of action that the Holy Spirit takes on those who in faith receive. in this case, of course, Simon did not receive and this is also a good example of asking awry or for the wrong reason. God says no and believers with discernment will also say no

Acts 10

The Baptism of Cornelius. 44 While Peter was still speaking these things, the holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the word.[s]45 The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the holy Spirit should have been poured out on the Gentiles also, 46 for they could hear them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter responded, 47 “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people, who have received the holy Spirit even as we have?” 48 He ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. 49 Then they invited him to stay for a few days.

so here we have the circumcised believers with Peter who were surprised, in fact, astounded, that the GIFT of the Holy Spirit should come upon an uncircumcised..ie not Jewish..believer in Christ. now how did they KNOW the Holy Spirit had fallen on them?

BECAUSE

THEY COULD HEAR THEM SPEAKING IN TONGUES

note the scripture does not say how did they know they were saved, but rather how did they know the Holy Spirit had fallen once again

then they were water baptized

two things to notice here, (those who have eyes and ears will see and hear)

1. people were speaking in tongues and there is no reference to others understanding what they were saying whatsoever. they took the tongues as PROOF of the Holy Spirit falling

2. the water baptism took place after the above. apparently the Spirit of God is not as stiff and proper about things it seems as those who say they speak for Him

now God is not a respecter of persons in the sense some here are or at least profess to be, but He speaks plainly and has spoken plainly and the above indicates in several ways, that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is NOT happening at salvation but can but can also happen apart from salvation and God will NOT benefit those who seek for the wrong reasons

In general and to all:

its all there in the Bible and so is what Paul taught concerning tongues and the other gifts

deny it at your own risk

Absolutely · Jul 2, 2019

CS1 said:

Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied
Also acts 8 :17-19
Maybe about 4 or 5 more verses in acts.

tanakh · Jul 2, 2019

wolfwint said:

The Pentecostal movement owes much of its influence with regard to the tongues doctrine to Edward Irving (1792-1834). A Presbyterian minister who broke off with his church and formed his own. He headed a congregation in London during the 1800s Prior to that his congregation based in Glasgow included Margaret MacDonald who is alleged to have a vision regarding the Pre Tribulation coming of Christ. It was he who made the teaching about tongues what it is today. He also believed that Christ had a sinful nature and was kicked out of his own church as a result. He also had a major role in promoting futurism and became a close associate of John Darby.

CS1 · Jul 2, 2019

Absolutely said:

So is the understanding that hands have to be laid on a person to have the power of the Holy Spirit? Or does it have to be an Apostle?

eternally-gratefull · Jul 2, 2019

7seasrekeyed said:

continuing to state that the baptism in the Holy Spirit happens at salvation is denying what the Bible says

very disappointing to learn, yet again, indoctrination and denial is so ingrained with a good number of posters here that they will continue to deny what is written and instead accuse and prefer to speak only in the negative

what is that exactly? (rhetorical question)

the dismissive attitude speaks volumes as well as the underlying pre-determined response

the real thing being said here, is 'don't give me any proof because I won't believe it anyway '

Acts 8

14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who went down and prayed for them, that they might receive the holy Spirit, 16 for it had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them and they received the holy Spirit.

if a person was/is baptized in the name of Jesus then that would be because they were already saved. these people were saved and then received the Holy Spirit as did the believers in Acts...ie in a different way or as a 2nd conformation of following Christ

18 [f]When Simon saw that the Spirit was conferred by the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me this power too, so that anyone upon whom I lay my hands may receive the holy Spirit.” 20 But Peter said to him, “May your money perish with you, because you thought that you could buy the gift of God with money. 21 You have no share or lot in this matter, for your heart is not upright before God. 22 Repent of this wickedness of yours and pray to the Lord that, if possible, your intention may be forgiven. 23 For I see that you are filled with bitter gall and are in the bonds of iniquity.” 24 Simon said in reply, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.” 25 So when they had testified and proclaimed the word of the Lord, they returned to Jerusalem and preached the good news to many Samaritan villages.

now apparently Simon did accept Jesus but he was not filled with the Holy Spirit. in this case, we see someone who was saved but the old nature was in charge and he desired what he saw, the miracles etc, as something he wanted rather then for the reasons Christ gives. say what you want, but it is still a second example of a second occasion of action that the Holy Spirit takes on those who in faith receive. in this case, of course, Simon did not receive and this is also a good example of asking awry or for the wrong reason. God says no and believers with discernment will also say no

Acts 10

The Baptism of Cornelius. 44 While Peter was still speaking these things, the holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the word.[s]45 The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the holy Spirit should have been poured out on the Gentiles also, 46 for they could hear them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter responded, 47 “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people, who have received the holy Spirit even as we have?” 48 He ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. 49 Then they invited him to stay for a few days.

so here we have the circumcised believers with Peter who were surprised, in fact, astounded, that the GIFT of the Holy Spirit should come upon an uncircumcised..ie not Jewish..believer in Christ. now how did they KNOW the Holy Spirit had fallen on them?

BECAUSE

THEY COULD HEAR THEM SPEAKING IN TONGUES

note the scripture does not say how did they know they were saved, but rather how did they know the Holy Spirit had fallen once again

then they were water baptized

two things to notice here, (those who have eyes and ears will see and hear)

1. people were speaking in tongues and there is no reference to others understanding what they were saying whatsoever. they took the tongues as PROOF of the Holy Spirit falling

2. the water baptism took place after the above. apparently the Spirit of God is not as stiff and proper about things it seems as those who say they speak for Him

now God is not a respecter of persons in the sense some here are or at least profess to be, but He speaks plainly and has spoken plainly and the above indicates in several ways, that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is NOT happening at salvation but can but can also happen apart from salvation and God will NOT benefit those who seek for the wrong reasons

In general and to all:

its all there in the Bible and so is what Paul taught concerning tongues and the other gifts

deny it at your own risk

To deny that baptism of the spirit occures at salvation is to INSIST that salvation (washing) of our sin occures at water baptism. No wonder you continue to feed waggles and wantsvic. You agree with them (you must) or you would not preach such things. And stand up for them.

We are WASHED through baptism. You have to decide which you will place your faiht in, Baptism in water, or spirit baptism performed by the and of God.

Take your pic. You can not have it both ways.

wolfwint · Jul 2, 2019

tanakh said:

The Pentecostal movement owes much of its influence with regard to the tongues doctrine to Edward Irving (1792-1834). A Presbyterian minister who broke off with his church and formed his own. He headed a congregation in London during the 1800s Prior to that his congregation based in Glasgow included Margaret MacDonald who is alleged to have a vision regarding the Pre Tribulation coming of Christ. It was he who made the teaching about tongues what it is today. He also believed that Christ had a sinful nature and was kicked out of his own church as a result. He also had a major role in promoting futurism and became a close associate of John Darby.

Thanks for this information. Irving, and his theologie in my eyes has cultstatus. And i cant count his teachings as from God given.

eternally-gratefull · Jul 2, 2019

7seasrekeyed said:

I didn't figure you for a bad actor

of course you cannot give an honest answer because the scripture disagrees with your twisting of it

this is very disappointing. too much finger pointing? with all your remarks about Pentecostals?

did you ever think that perhaps people respond in like manner to how you and others write?

Seems like you proved mailman point.

CS1 · Jul 2, 2019

tanakh said:

You have to go back much further than that sir, if you want to look at modern Movements of the Holy Spirit you can see 1500-1600's Martin Luther and the Justification and the work of the Holy Spirit where the documented utterance was mentioned in church services and meeting. The sanctification ( Holiness movement) 1600- to 1900 John and Charles Wesley where they wrote of the Holy Spirit and languages and power move of the Holy Spirit and healings. You can even go back further of the Church fathers 325 AD who spoke about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. Clement, Origen as men became more educated they relied on human understanding over the Leading of the Holy Spirit This is why we see the limited movement of the Holy Spirit as they grew away from the Pentecost experience. a Form of godliness but denied the power thereof But God in His power moved anyway. We see this in the historical narrative of the church from Acts 80 AD to 325AD and 400AD, 700AD and 1500AD to 1900 AD.

mailmandan · Jul 2, 2019

7seasrekeyed said:

Bad actor? Cannot give an honest answer? I have not twisted scripture and it’s very disappointing to hear these false accusations. My remarks single out those within Pentecostal circles who overemphasize tongues in such a way by teaching if you have not spoken in tongues then you have not received the Holy Spirit and are not saved, along with teaching that if you have not been water baptized “in Jesus name only” then you won’t be saved. I’m surprised to not see more Pentecostals who do not teach that nonsense speak out against it.

I don’t speak out against Pentecostals in general. I don’t paint the entire Pentecostal movement with a broad brush. This thread has been too much of a war zone! It saddens me to see certain people within Pentecostal circles come on here and pervert the gospel, but for the sake of unity over tongues, other Pentecostals who do not pervert the gospel just sweep it under the rug. I have also never once mentioned on this thread that I was a cessationist, yet I have been called one.

I will address your long winded post in the morning when I have more time, unless you are only interested in contention and if that’s the case, I won’t waste my time. Did you read my discussion with CS1 on page 89? There was no contention and we actually reached some understanding and agreement over things that you accused me of twisting scripture.

stonesoffire · Jul 2, 2019

garee said:

That’s actually a very good answer. God Himself wrote the 10 commandments. I can see too why you answered this way. But Memra, is the Son who manifested to the nation of the Jews which is seen as different manifestations than the begotten Son with Mary.

So when the Word of the Lord came through the prophets to the Kings of the time, how did they (the prophets) receive it that it could be recorded?

My first post wasn’t clear. I apologize for that. I hope this is clearer. I could just say how, but am hoping Garee sees this.

stonesoffire · Jul 2, 2019

eternally-gratefull said:

EG you know that it’s the blood atonement that we trust in for our salvation to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

stonesoffire · Jul 2, 2019

wolfwint said:

Did I say that Wolf?

dcontroversal · Jul 2, 2019

mailmandan said:

Yes, indeed he does believe that rigmarole

dcontroversal · Jul 2, 2019

Oncefallen said:

Hahahahah Once waxes hilarious.....loved it....Yeah.....I had fun in that thread......he did not like me too much

dcontroversal · Jul 2, 2019

Waggles said:

No thanks with me putting forth the effort to be right with God.....the imputed righteousness of Christ and the applied blood of Christ, both by faith have made me right with God........and your latter point......as bias and false as can be!

dcontroversal · Jul 2, 2019

Absolutely said:

Nice scenario that will never happen....there are no second chances after one makes hell....how about something scriptural instead of fantasy land man made ideology......!!

mailmandan · Jul 2, 2019

stonesoffire said:

Who is “we”? There are those on this thread who have made it clear it’s the blood atonement that they trust in for salvation, yet there are still some who have made it clear that they trust in the blood atonement + “something else” for salvation — namely, water baptism (and in some cases must be done using the formula of “in Jesus name only” and speaking in tongues. We must not compromise the gospel for the sake of unity elsewhere.

Born Again Speaking in Tongues

Senior Member

Well-known member

7seasrekeyed

Guest

7seasrekeyed

Guest

Banned

Senior Member

Well-known member

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Senior Member

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Well-known member

Senior Member

Poetic Member

Poetic Member

Poetic Member

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Senior Member