Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[crossnote]

@LW97 It seems like you are struggling with your own assurance and are throwing verses at EG that has robbed you of that assurance. Here is a gem you might ponder...
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Rom 5:10 KJV)

 

[UnderGrace]

We definitely cannot merit salvation, but does that mean we cannot lose it? I also can give you 20 dollars as a gift and you can still lose it.

Salvation is more than a possession....It is a judicial decree by God ...we are justified.....declared innocent once and for all.

 

[UnderGrace]

I believe the Bible is clear enough on this issue.

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" 2 Timothy 2:12 KJV

What part of this Verse do you not understand? I myself am 100 %ly sure that salvation loss is possible.

What is really more worrisome is how you came to change your mind?
All these scriptures were there before.

 

[LW97]

Hi LW97, there is One who tells us that a true believer will never lose his/her salvation.

John 6:37-40 (excerpt)​

All that the the Father gives Me will come to Me, and .. of all that He has given Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.​

Was He wrong somehow?

Thanks!

~Deut

Let us quote Verse 37 in full.
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh (PRESENT TENSE) to me I will in no wise cast out."
There is no mention of those who once started coming to him, but then departed.

I apologize in case I lack of humility.

 

[LW97]

Exactly

The problem is. Many people think they are on a bike

Now this is ridiculous. How can someone think he sits on a bike when he doesn't?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let us quote Verse 37 in full.
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh (PRESENT TENSE) to me I will in no wise cast out."
There is no mention of those who once started coming to him, but then departed.

I apologize in case I lack of humility.

The problem is you left out vs 40

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Again, My original question still stands, God says they have eternal life and will never be cast out.. He never said they will only not be cast out as long as they continued to believe, that was not a condition.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Now this is ridiculous. How can someone think he sits on a bike when he doesn't?

Many people think they are saved yet they are not. Even jesus said many people will come and scream of all their hard work in jesus name, and he will say he never knew them, so depart,

These people thought they were on the bike when they were not .

The point still stands.

 

[LW97]

The problem is you left out vs 40

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Again, My original question still stands, God says they have eternal life and will never be cast out.. He never said they will only not be cast out as long as they continued to believe, that was not a condition.

Hello, my friend.

It still says "believeth", not "hath believed". So yes, Jesus does state that it is a condition.

 

[LW97]

Many people think they are saved yet they are not. Even jesus said many people will come and scream of all their hard work in jesus name, and he will say he never knew them, so depart,

These people thought they were on the bike when they were not .

The point still stands.

I agree that many are fake, but you cannot say that about all of those who choose to walk away.

 

[Skyline]

What do you guys say about these verses if you lost it? Does the Holy Spirt come upon belief then leave? Then come back?
Ephesians 1:13-14
John 10:28-2
Philippians 1:6 and 3:12
Jude 24-25
Thank you

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hello, my friend.

It still says "believeth", not "hath believed". So yes, Jesus does state that it is a condition.

No it does not

It says whoever comes to him has what God is promising

The same passage says whoever eats the bread he offers will live forever, never die and has eternal life.

You continue to make God contradict himself why would you want to do that?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree that many are fake, but you cannot say that about all of those who choose to walk away.

You have not given me a reason anyone would walk away.

I asked you what God would or could do to cause a person to walk away?

Have you given me a reason?

(We walk away from people who FAIL US!, what can God do to FAIL US?)

People walk away, BECAUSE they never were really with him, thus they never truly experienced him, Thus to them, It meant nothing, there was no power to keep them. Because they were never gods to begin with.

 

[Waggles]

@LW97
you are doctrinally correct
God is faithful and true
people on the otherhand can be fickle
many people lose their vision and return to the world and sometimes past living
Christians can and do throw the towel in
Believers stop believing and stop praying
Satan has his successes at clawing back believers to himself

Now the OSAS promoters will blog nonsense such as they were not truly saved - denial of the scriptures about salvation, faith,
walking with the Lord, enduring to the end.
And it is not for us to determine who is "truly" saved, that's just a crutch for OSAS.
Read the NT - there are many, many warnings about losing one's salvation and being cast off or denied by Jesus - "I never knew you"

OSAS is yet another populist dumbing down of Christianity, like the pre-tribulation secret rapture, where worldly Christians are
to be taken away to suffer no tribulation - again totally wishful thinking and wholly unscriptural.

Salvation is a life-long commitment that requires for a disciple to continue overcoming the flesh and the world - if you go back
to the world and back to your sin then you are walking away from grace and from Calvary.

Run the race so as to finish it and to claim the prize - the crown of righteousness.
Your prayer life is so essential to strengthening and renewing of faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When I read it I see him speaking to a crowd at that time, a point in history. Why would he use a past tense “believed” when speaking to a crowd at that present time?

Last day hasn’t come yet too.

Maybe I missing your point.

I lean towards life long but not 100% yet.

Because many of them had already believed?

He also was speaking to all of us,

The whole point of his conversation is not to look or work for food which perishes (this making you need to continue to eat or die) but to take the food which endures to eternal life, which He will give you (the bread from heaven, or his flesh on the cross)

Why would he talk about this food you eat once and never will die after you eat it, And food which we must continue to take for the rest of our lives, or we will die?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

@LW97
you are doctrinally correct
God is faithful and true
people on the otherhand can be fickle
many people lose their vision and return to the world (and sometimes past living)
Christians can and do throw the towel in
Believers stop believing and stop praying
Satan has his successes at clawing back believers to himself

Now the OSAS promoters will blog nonsense such as they were not truly saved - denial of the scriptures about salvation, faith,
walking with the Lord, enduring to the end.
Read the NT - there are many, many warnings about losing one's salvation and being cast off or denied by Jesus - "I never knew you"

OSAS is yet another populist dumbing down of Christianity, like the pre-tribulation secret rapture, where worldly Christians are
to be taken away to suffer no tribulation - again totally wishful thinking and wholly unscriptural.

Salvation is a life-long commitment that requires for a disciple to continue overcoming the flesh and the world - if you go back
to the world and back to your sin then you are walking away from grace and from Calvary.

Run the race so as to finish it and to claim the prize - the crown of righteousness.
Your prayer life is so essential to strengthening and renewing of faith.

Yep. Like many, This person thinks he can purchase his salvation by his works.

He can continue, But he shoud be warned, that when he starts naming off all his works he accomplishe, Jesus made it clear. He will tell him depart from me for I never knew you.

Our salvation is by faith alone, Our salvation PRODUCES WORKS. Works will NEVER produce or maintain salvation.

If they could Jesus died for naught.

 

[Waggles]

OSAS is complete doctrinal rubbish.

 

[Skyline]

“Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer [offer does not mean required] your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:1-2‬ ‭NIV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/111/rom.12.1-2.niv

This is one of the reasons I lean towards one saved you are sealed with the Holy Spirit.
Don’t get me wrong I do everything I can to live Holy, but I see it as a thank you statement personally.

 

[Skyline]

Yep. Like many, This person thinks he can purchase HOA salvation by his works.

He can continue, But he shoud be warned, that when he starts naming off all his works he accomplishe, Jesus made it clear. He will tell him depart from me for I never knew you.

Our salvation is by faith alone, Our salvation PRODUCES WORKS. Works will NEVER produce or maintain salvation.

If they could Jesus died for naught.

Based on what I read in Waggles post I think you’re being too harsh.
Romans 12 shows Waggles worships Him in view of God’s mercy - based on that post I read. How is fighting not to sin a meritorious work that replaces His finished work? A person can’t not sin (even a doubt is a sin)
This would cut the other way to OSAS too. They don’t nt want to worship, does not mean they’re not saved.
Or @ least how I see it. Maybe its how a person views his fight against sin. Like I said I see it as a thank you

 

[vinho]

I believe the Bible is clear enough on this issue.

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" 2 Timothy 2:12 KJV

What part of this Verse do you not understand? I myself am 100 %ly sure that salvation loss is possible.

If you dont believe in eternal security you are deniing the lord. In this text that deny refer to no save person

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Based on what I read in Waggles post I think you’re being too harsh.
Romans 12 shows Waggles worships Him in view of God’s mercy - based on that post I read. How is fighting not to sin a meritorious work that replaces His finished work? A person can’t not sin (even a doubt is a sin)
This would cut the other way to OSAS too. They don’t nt want to worship, does not mean they’re not saved.
Or @ least how I see it. Maybe its how a person views his fight against sin. Like I said I see it as a thank you

Waggles thinks he must earn his salvation

1. He thinks he MUST be baptised in water to be saved (replacing baptism of the spirit)
2. He believes that unless you speak in tongues you are not saved
3. He thinks salvation must be maintained by his continued action.

I know waggles very well. Do not let him fool you