100% Election 100% of the time.

Nehemiah6 · Jun 27, 2019

You do it every day buddy.

FollowHisSteps · Jun 28, 2019

cv5 said:

"Election: Christ’s Honor and Our Blessing"

http://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/81-49

The following passages are interpreted differently by Calvinists and Arminians:

John 6:37
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."
Calvinists argue that this passages teaches irresistible grace. The individual cannot refuse God's choice, therefore all those given to Christ will respond.
Arminians reply that "those given to me" in 37 are the same as those who "believe in him" in vs. 40. In other words, when God foresees that some will believe, he gives them to Christ. See that in vs. 45, those who "have heard and learned from the father" are the ones who "come to me."

John 6:44,65
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."
The Calvinist holds that these passages teach total depravity, unconditional election, and also imply limited atonement and double predestination. This is because:
"No one can come to me unless . . . " because they are totally depraved
"it has been granted him from the Father" or "the Father draws him" meaning unconditional election. Unconditional in this case, because the cause is the father, not the individual.
Limited atonement and double predestination are usually inferred from the face that it is impossible to come to him without election. Therefore, those whom the Father has not drawn are naturally destined for judgement, and are therefore those for whom Christ did not die.
The Arminian agrees that these passages teach total depravity. However, they argue that the father draws all men to Christ (Jn. 12:32; 16:8). They further hold that to assign the cause exclusively to the Father ignores vss. 29; 35; 40; and 47. To attribute the cause exclusively to the Father regardless of the response of the person, flies in the face of the stated will of the Father in vs. 40 that "Everyone who beholds the Son and believes in him" be saved. Finally, with regard to limited atonement and double predestination, these positions depend on the earlier conclusion (unconditional election), and therefore beg the question.

John 15:16
"You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain..."
Some Calvinists (and Augustine) have argued that this a proof text for unconditional election, emphasizing the irrelevance of human choice.
Arminians point out that the statement is made to the disciples with reference to their apostleship, not to their salvation. This interpretation accords well with the next phrase "that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should remain." See also Jn. 6:70 referring to the same choice. Judas was chosen but not saved.

Acts 13:48
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."
The Calvinists argue that this verse teaches unconditional election, because it would have been easy to say "as many as believed were appointed eternal life" but the reverse is stated.
The Arminians point out that the participle translated "were appointed to" (tetagmenoi) is in the middle-passive voice. This means that the same form is used in Greek to designate both the middle voice and the passive voice. The NASB has translated it in the passive voice. However, if it is translated in the middle voice, the passage would read ". . .as many as set themselves to eternal life believed" (cf I Cor. 16:15 where the same participle is translated in the middle voice).

Romans 9:16,22,23
The Calvinist position is that Romans 9 teaches unconditional election and double predestination. This is because:
Vs. 16 "it [God's choice] does not depend on the man who wills"
Vs. 18 refers to double predestination.
Vs. 22, 23 refer to "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" and "vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory."
The election involved is not a national election, because vs. 24 states that the vessels of mercy are "us, whom He called not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles,"" (i.e. believing Christians).
Arminians argue that the first part of Romans 9 deals with God's choice of nations and their roles in his plans.
Vs. 1-5 make clear that the context is that of national choice. This is confirmed in verses 6,7 because all Israelites were not saved and all Ishmaelites were not damned. Also, in vs. 13 Malachi 3:2 is cited to demonstrate that God had favored the nation of Israel over the nation of Edom.
Vs. 16 refers to God's choice of how to lead the nation of Israel through the wilderness, which was independent of Moses's opinion. Personal salvation is not in view in the original passage (Ex. 33:19).
Vs. 18 is in the context of vs. 16 see above, and vs. 17 which refers to God's temporal destruction of the Egyptians when they wanted to destroy Israel. The verse teaches therefore, that God caused his choice of Israel to stand regardless of Moses' attempts to help or Pharoah's attempts to hinder. Neither Moses' nor Pharoah's personal salvation was in view in these passages.
Vs. 22,23 refers to nations which have either glorious or a judgmental role in history. God allows evil nations to exist, and often uses them to bless the chosen nation, Israel. Today, believers are able to participate in the covenant blessings of Israel, because they have been "grafted in to the rich root" of God's purpose in history.
Another explanation is that the "lump" of clay in vs. 21 refers to national Israel. God has the right to divide Israel into two vessels: unbelieving Israel, which has now become a vessel of wrath (for "prepared", read fit or suited to destruction), and believing Israel, which, along with believing Gentiles has become a vessel of mercy.
Any interpretation of Rom. 9 must account for the transition that Paul makes from national choice in vss. 1-5ff. and individual salvation in vss. 24-33. Therefore, neither view can claim that the other is completely out of context. The question becomes one of which transition is more believable, and makes the most sense of the Old Testament quotations.

The elect are eternal, chosen from the beginning of time into eternity.
A desire for the eternal, for love and righteousness is their breast plate and armour.

A transformed heart, a growth in the things of God, a desire to serve and to see blessing
and truth prosper, these are the things that call to our hearts.

posthuman · Jun 28, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

But our God is in the heavens;

He does whatever He pleases.

(Psalm 115:3)

patience is not impotence

FollowHisSteps · Jun 28, 2019

posthuman said:

I had a sight, which returns to me occasionally.
God weaves His purposes through mans interactions and experiences.
He could turn and puppet like control everything, yet He chooses to bring about His purposes through it all.
We can choose to learn to walk and follow, or stand and be destroyed.

Our mortality and failure is plain for everyone to see, but Jesus calls with a message of hope and faith,
you can follow and you can walk. But how many hear and respond?

Even here in a christian forum, how many voices raise to oppose following or even believing God can
change them and lead them to victory and eternity with Him?

posthuman · Jun 28, 2019

UnderGrace said:

i agree

Who is it that persuades?

Will anyone fail to be saved because i wasn't clever enough to use the right words or the music wasn't quite emotional enough at the benediction?

Or is it about the word of God that goes out, not crafty arguments? In that case isn't it God Himself persuading?

If i can't make myself believe - and i agree i can't - then why would i think i can make someone else? Then i sure could boast! And salvation would be by fine rhetoric and oration, not grace, wouldn't it?

PennEd · Jun 28, 2019

posthuman said:

There is almost a visceral fear surrounding the thought that it IS God that saves us, from start to finish. I do not fear that and am so thankful to Him for saving me.

Deade · Jun 28, 2019

posthuman said:

You are getting to the gist of what God is doing on earth in this age. The gospel is supposed to be about the Kingdom of God. About God coming to take control of the world system. He put that system under the dominion of man (Gen.1:26). Satan is pretty much running things by steering man, usually without man's knowledge.

He is not dealing with most people on a spiritual level at this time. God want us to spread the gospel throughout the world as a witness. Matt. 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

Let's get on board and witness to the world and quit trying to get everybody saved. That is not God's work. That said, be ready to give account of the hope God's word has delivered to you. 1 Peter 3:15 "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"

cv5 · Jun 28, 2019

UnderGrace said:

"and leaves others out of luck"

Yes I definitely agree that God wills everyone to repent and believe. But then again, the foreordained are the sheep that hear and follow. I observe with astonishment workmates and family that do not believe. IMO they refuse the believe, as it means jettisoning their beloved sin, and this present age, and to lose all, risk all and take the leap of faith and fall into the Everlasting Arms of Jesus.

cv5 · Jun 28, 2019

posthuman said:

God engages us to sow the seed of the gospel. That's it and that's all. It is God Himself who gives the increase.

cv5 · Jun 28, 2019

UnderGrace said:

Question: who provides the wedding garment? The guest or the Lord?
Subtle but useful. And there is the ubiquitous declaration by our Lord once again...!

Matt 22

“But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.”

cv5 · Jun 28, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

God also has a permissive will that allows sin to continue. Don't be seduced into thinking God's will can be "stymied". God declares dozens of times that His will shall be fulfilled, to whatever degree He chooses.

Noose · Jun 28, 2019

cv5 said:

God does not have a permissive will that allows sin to continue, rather sin/evil, gives righteousness/good and therefore life eternal, preeminence. God has said He hates sin, so He can not also have a permissive will that allows sin to continue- it would mean that He is helpless somehow IMO.

But existence is a loop with the beginning and end joined at the same point and life eternal proceeding from that point, running towards infinity and all this playing out in the mind of God. Can good without evil be good? can light without darkness be light?
So evil brings the temporariness so that life eternal is meaningful. But evil is not found with God, creation was done in the minds of men.

Predestination and freewill debates are thereby meaningless because non of these positions demonstrate what is happening. There are verses that seem to support either side but God did not sit down and select people before the beginning, and people do not choose to believe in God at some point in time too - God is the beginning and the end, so everything that will ever happen including what many believe is a choice they made, is within the understanding of God.

The son which is an authority of God through which the world was created, covers all men too. So we were somehow with God before the beginning and are now going through the loop, being reconciled back to God - and as we approach the end, we are travelling towards the beginning when the new heavens and new earth will be recreated through our renewed minds as the ungodly are destroyed by the temporariness brought by evil.

This is not an election or free will, it is God working from the beginning to the end. It is creation.

Ecc 3:9What do workers gain from their toil? 10I have seen the burden God has laid on the human race. 11He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet a no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

Nehemiah6 · Jun 28, 2019

PennEd said:

No it is the visceral fear of falsely promoting the idea that God plays favorites with His free gift of eternal life. Yes God saves us from start to finish, but it is FALSE DOCTRINE to claim that sinners do not have to obey the Gospel in order to be saved. Indeed, every Calvinist had to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

PennEd · Jun 28, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

No it is the visceral fear of falsely promoting the idea that God plays favorites with His free gift of eternal life. Yes God saves us from start to finish, but it is FALSE DOCTRINE to claim that sinners do not have to obey the Gospel in order to be saved. Indeed, every Calvinist had to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

Yup. Don’t disagree with any of this.

cv5 · Jun 28, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

Nobody is claiming that. Only you. Calvinism is a red herring. Calvin was not around to tutor Paul.

posthuman · Jun 28, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

Is this total strawman or do you think the gospel is one of works?

Skyline · Jun 28, 2019

@posthuman and @cv5 what is your statement of belief? Please point me to a prior post if you've given it. It's kind of hard to confidently determine what you believe.
Are you Calvinists? If so all TULIP? Arminians? Neither?

I've working on adding mine to my signature.

Thank you

posthuman · Jun 28, 2019

Skyline said:

lol here:

https://aruljohn.com/Bible/kjv/

Skyline · Jun 28, 2019

posthuman said:

Come on

Mine are all based in the same bible. I’m working on adding scripture links to my sig.
What are your beliefs? I’m not asking for a label, what do you believe because I am trying to see your POV

posthuman · Jun 28, 2019

Skyline said:

ok,
here's a ((regrettably)) incomplete statement i've been working on:

https://christianchat.com/search/146786/

100% Election 100% of the time.

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