Eternal torment VS Annihilation

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U

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
#2
Jul 28, 2017
908
142
43
#2
That is the nice thing about the principles of Christ, it's cuts asunder the doctrines of men which toss the children to and fro preventing them from ever being able come to the knowledge of the truth.
 
FollowHisSteps

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
#9
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
#9
4 For you have upheld my right and my cause; you have sat on your throne, judging righteously.
5 You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked; you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.
6 Endless ruin has overtaken the enemy, you have uprooted their cities; even the memory of them has perished.
Psalm 9

26 For they persecute those you wound and talk about the pain of those you hurt.
27 Charge them with crime upon crime; do not let them share in your salvation.
28 May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.
Psalm 69

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.
16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them,
18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
19> This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
Deut 30

24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1 Cor 15

28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 10

7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
2 Peter 3

9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
2 Thess 1

8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Gal 6

22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?
Rom 9

The clear principle in scripture is evil people are destroyed, killed, removed from this earth,
not remembered, not given honour or position.

In the new testament this is extended into eternal destruction, the total removal of someones
soul. There is little reference to torture, or punishment, but rather obliteration. The punishment
is obliteration. It appears that for many this is not good enough, so life and existence should be
maintained so they can be tortured, so the idea of doing evil and then being destroyed is getting
away with evil without a down side.

But love and life is about how things work and when things fail, they are simply removed and
forgotten. Where is the need for revenge? How can one have revenge on that which did not work
or have something eternal within it?
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#10
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#10
I thin you're little thesis left out how there is going to be greater punishment, and less tolerable for some on Judgement day.

Mark 12:40 New King James Version (NKJV)
40 who devour widows’ houses, and [a]for a pretense make long prayers. These will receive GREATER condemnation.”

Matthew 11:20-24 New King James Version (NKJV)
Woe to the Impenitent Cities
20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be MORE TOLERABLE for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum,who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say to you that it shall be MORE TOLERABLE for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”

Luke 12:47-48 New King James Version (NKJV)
47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with MANY stripes.48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with FEW. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

As far as lost loved ones, first off our full attention is going to be on Jesus in His Presence. Secondly, I think it likely at some point, maybe right after Jesus wipes away our tears at seeing loved ones paying for their sin, we will remember them no more.
 
A

Adstar

Senior Member
#11
Jul 24, 2016
7,600
3,623
113
#11
dcontroversal said:
The smoke of their torment forever and ever is clear enough!!
Click to expand...
Yes it cannot be any clearer.. Seems those who do not want it to be true will grasp any interpretation of scripture that avoids the clear reading..

Revelation 20: KJV
10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Revelation 20: KJV
13 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. {14} And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. {15} And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#12
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#12
God is sovereign and will do as pleases Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#13
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#13
LW97 said:
I used to be on the Eternal Torment side, but then I decided to rethink my interpretations...
Click to expand...
Well perhaps it's time to rethink you rethinking. The Word of God does not change simply because some people can't handle the truth.
 
LW97

LW97

Senior Member
#15
Apr 10, 2018
1,140
260
63
#15
Nehemiah6 said:
Well perhaps it's time to rethink you rethinking. The Word of God does not change simply because some people can't handle the truth.
Click to expand...
Correct, but I am75 % sure that scripture teaches eternal destruction as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9. There are many other Verses too. What part of "the soul that sinneth it shall die" do you not understand?
 
LW97

LW97

Senior Member
#16
Apr 10, 2018
1,140
260
63
#16
Adstar said:
Yes it cannot be any clearer.. Seems those who do not want it to be true will grasp any interpretation of scripture that avoids the clear reading..

Revelation 20: KJV
10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Revelation 20: KJV
13 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. {14} And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. {15} And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Click to expand...
So the word "destruction in Matthew 7:13, 1 Corinthians 3:17, Philippians 3:19 etc. is just allegorical?
 
LW97

LW97

Senior Member
#17
Apr 10, 2018
1,140
260
63
#17
PennEd said:
I thin you're little thesis left out how there is going to be greater punishment, and less tolerable for some on Judgement day.

Mark 12:40 New King James Version (NKJV)
40 who devour widows’ houses, and [a]for a pretense make long prayers. These will receive GREATER condemnation.”

Matthew 11:20-24 New King James Version (NKJV)
Woe to the Impenitent Cities
20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be MORE TOLERABLE for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum,who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say to you that it shall be MORE TOLERABLE for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”

Luke 12:47-48 New King James Version (NKJV)
47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with MANY stripes.48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with FEW. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

As far as lost loved ones, first off our full attention is going to be on Jesus in His Presence. Secondly, I think it likely at some point, maybe right after Jesus wipes away our tears at seeing loved ones paying for their sin, we will remember them no more.
Click to expand...
Amen! If it was eternal torment, then all had the same punishment (forever in hell). There only conditional immortality makes sense
 
LW97

LW97

Senior Member
#18
Apr 10, 2018
1,140
260
63
#18
FollowHisSteps said:
4 For you have upheld my right and my cause; you have sat on your throne, judging righteously.
5 You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked; you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.
6 Endless ruin has overtaken the enemy, you have uprooted their cities; even the memory of them has perished.
Psalm 9

26 For they persecute those you wound and talk about the pain of those you hurt.
27 Charge them with crime upon crime; do not let them share in your salvation.
28 May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.
Psalm 69

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.
16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them,
18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
19> This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
Deut 30

24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1 Cor 15

28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 10

7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
2 Peter 3

9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
2 Thess 1

8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Gal 6

22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?
Rom 9

The clear principle in scripture is evil people are destroyed, killed, removed from this earth,
not remembered, not given honour or position.

In the new testament this is extended into eternal destruction, the total removal of someones
soul. There is little reference to torture, or punishment, but rather obliteration. The punishment
is obliteration. It appears that for many this is not good enough, so life and existence should be
maintained so they can be tortured, so the idea of doing evil and then being destroyed is getting
away with evil without a down side.

But love and life is about how things work and when things fail, they are simply removed and
forgotten. Where is the need for revenge? How can one have revenge on that which did not work
or have something eternal within it?
Click to expand...
AMEN!!!!
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#19
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#19
LW97 said:
Correct, but I am75 % sure that scripture teaches eternal destruction as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9. There are many other Verses too. What part of "the soul that sinneth it shall die" do you not understand?
Click to expand...
I believe I understand it far better than you do. "eternal destruction" does NOT mean Annihilation but "eternal ruination" or more clearly eternal torment in the Lake of Fire. If you want the truth, you will receive the truth. But it you do not want it you will not receive it.

VINE'S EXPOSITORY DICTIONARY

Destroy, Destroyer, Destruction, Destructive

A — 1: ἀπόλλυμι
(Strong's #622 — Verb — apollumi — ap-ol'-loo-mee )
a strengthened form of ollumi, signifies "to destroy utterly;" in Middle Voice, "to perish." The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luke 5:37 ; of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution, Luke 15:4,6 , etc.; the lost son, Luke 15:24 ; of the perishing of food, John 6:27 ; of gold, 1 Peter 1:7 . So of persons, Matthew 2:13 , "destroy;" Matthew 8:25 , "perish;" Matthew 22:7 ; 27:20 ; of the loss of well-being in the case of the unsaved hereafter, Matthew 10:28 ; Luke 13:3,5 ; John 3:16 (ver. 15 in some mss.); 10:28; 17:12; Romans 2:12 ; 1 Corinthians 15:18 ; 2 Corinthians 2:15 , "are perishing;" 2 Corinthians 4:3 ; 2 Thessalonians 2:10 ; James 4:12 ; 2 Peter 3:9 .
 
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