This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him. Jn.2:11
100% Election 100% of the time.
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UnderGrace
Guest
Exactly, boasting is about having something over and above others.
The idea that a person was gifted faith for salvation and others are not is the person who can boast.
Scripture states there is no boasting because we all have the exact same point of entry......being persuaded, believing on Christ Jesus as saviour!
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UnderGrace
Guest
Right and understand the concept of predestination in context.
We were predestined to “be conformed to the image of his Son”, which is not salvation, but predestined to be conformed to his image because we already have salvation. Once we receive salvation by our belief, our destiny then becomes sealed, and we are predestined for many things.
A whole lot in these verses:
2 Timothy 2:24-26 New International Version (NIV)
24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
Notice how it is GOD that is granting them repentance, and leading them to the knowledge of the Truth.
I have never understood how the sovereign election of God and the free will choice of man can somehow mesh. My objection is to those who callously with condescension, scoff at those that lean more toward God's sovereignty than man's choice, certainly not exercising "gentle instruction". And yes, I HAVE seen the reverse as well.
I can look at my own life, and I would say, a preponderance of Scripture, to lean far more to God's sovereignty than my choice.
I would NOT of my own accord have sought Him out. I would NOT have believed the Gospel had HE not given me the faith to do so. I was NOT a participant in my conception and birth, beyond being the recipient. What I have done SINCE then I have been.
I would have continued to revel in my sin had He not drawn me.
This WHOLE passage totally speaks to the fact that it was GOD from start to finish that did ALL the saving and electing. Notice how we were DEAD, notice how we fulfilled the lusts of our flesh WHILE DEAD just like the unsaved.
Ephesians 2 New King James Version (NKJV)
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
So what role does a dead man play in his birth?
The scripture indicates that the sequence is as follows:
Rom 8:30
"And those whom he (1) predestined he also (2) called, and those whom he called he also (3) justified, and those whom he justified he also (4) glorified.
Nowhere in scripture do sinners believe then become predestinated.
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UnderGrace
Guest
The predestined are those that have believed......The Gospel of John makes the path of salvation very clear.
A dead man can believe!
John 15:16
"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide"
Honestly I do cannot fathom the controversy in this matter. That is Jesus Himself speaking. This was the very inception of the Church.
Disagree. Foreordained and chosen before even being born. Salvation is a work of God in totality IMO.
By Grace, no works no boasting no initiative no nothing on our part.....
We do the sinning and rebelling. That's all we know.
Yes he can. Because GOD has quickened him, AND given him the faith to believe. Right on!
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UnderGrace
Guest
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UnderGrace
Guest
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UnderGrace
Guest
John 1:12; 3:15,16,36; 5:24; 6:40; 7:39; 12:36 and 20:31. These Scriptures all show that spiritual life follows upon the sinner's believing in Jesus the Christ.
The Apostle John gave as his reason for writing his gospel, "that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through His name." It is very clear that believing comes first and the new birth follows.
A notable exampe is Acts 16:31 where Paul said, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved."
This just denies the reality that words have meaning. DEAD means DEAD.
To think that someone can DO anything, BEFORE being "made Alive by God", or quickened, is ludicrous. No matter how you fight that, you CAN'T squirm out of that fact!
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Well Mr. Penn Ed.....dead does not mean the inability to believe and no where does scripture state this in fact it is quite the opposite.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
A couple of posts I've made in the past, on this general topic:
G2564 - kaleó / kalesai / keklēmenous - "to call / invite / name"
G2822 - klétos / klētoi / klētois - "to call / invite / summon"
It is important to notice how EACH of these is used in BOTH the Matthew 22:1-14 passage AND the Romans 8:28,30 verses [go there now, and notice this
]
[note: the Matthew 22:1-14 passage is referring to the "guests [plural]" of "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth, whereas the Romans 8 passage is referring to (that which pertains to) "the Church which is His body" (who is not "the guests [plural]"), so there's that distinction to be noted also--not that this makes much difference in how the words are used (re: call/invite)]
[quoting]
"In the NT, 2822 /klētós ("divinely called") focuses on God's general call – i.e. the call (invitation) He gives to all people, so all can receive His salvation. God desires every person to call out to Him and receive His salvation (1 Tim 2:4,5). "Unfortunately, many choose not to – but all can; all don't but all can call out to God for His mercy (not just 'some')" (G. Archer)." [source: Bible Hub]
____________
The other issue is, to consider how the word "quickened" is used in the context of Eph2... "quickened [us] together with [G4806 (one word in the Grk)]" Christ (positional / legal truths)... that is, when He was, we (who believe) also were: https://biblehub.com/text/ephesians/2-5.htm
[quoting Gaebelein]
"These verses in which we read of the believer’s quickening, his resurrection with Christ and being seated in Christ in the heavenlies, take us back to the time when our blessed Savior Lord was quickened and raised from the dead and seated in glory. It is plain what God did for Him, who died on the cross, He has done for all, who believe on His Son. Many Christians are ignorant of this great truth, while others have difficulty in grasping it. Yet it is quite Simple. Every Christian believes that when the Lord Jesus suffered on the cross He bore our sins in His own body on the tree. With the Apostle Paul every believer is entitled to say in looking back to the cross, “He loved me, He gave Himself for me.” We know all our sins were paid for by Him; all the punishment we deserved fell upon Him, our substitute. In Him we died. All this happened when we were not in existence at all. The sins He bore were not yet committed. God knew all about us and all about our sins and shame, the punishment we deserved, and His ever-blessed Son took all upon Himself. In the same sense God hath quickened us with Christ, raised us up and seated us in Him, when He did this for His Son our Lord Jesus Christ. This is simple, yet so wonderful and deep, that it is incomprehensible. It was all done for us, who believe, when it was done for Him. God in His marvelous counsels in redemption has associated us with Christ. He has made all, who believe on Him, sharers of His life and nature; He brings us into the same relationship as sons, and finally into the same glory and inheritance. Let us bear in mind that all this was done for us in Christ. He is the first one who was quickened, raised up and exalted in glory, and associated with Him are all His members; we share it with Him.
"And all this becomes our blessed portion by faith in Jesus Christ."
--Gaebelein
[end quoting; underline mine]
____________
[end of those quoted previous posts]
For consideration also, IMO, is how 2Cor5:14-15 says, "...because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live..."
G2564 - kaleó / kalesai / keklēmenous - "to call / invite / name"
G2822 - klétos / klētoi / klētois - "to call / invite / summon"
It is important to notice how EACH of these is used in BOTH the Matthew 22:1-14 passage AND the Romans 8:28,30 verses [go there now, and notice this
][note: the Matthew 22:1-14 passage is referring to the "guests [plural]" of "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth, whereas the Romans 8 passage is referring to (that which pertains to) "the Church which is His body" (who is not "the guests [plural]"), so there's that distinction to be noted also--not that this makes much difference in how the words are used (re: call/invite)]
[quoting]
"In the NT, 2822 /klētós ("divinely called") focuses on God's general call – i.e. the call (invitation) He gives to all people, so all can receive His salvation. God desires every person to call out to Him and receive His salvation (1 Tim 2:4,5). "Unfortunately, many choose not to – but all can; all don't but all can call out to God for His mercy (not just 'some')" (G. Archer)." [source: Bible Hub]
____________
The other issue is, to consider how the word "quickened" is used in the context of Eph2... "quickened [us] together with [G4806 (one word in the Grk)]" Christ (positional / legal truths)... that is, when He was, we (who believe) also were: https://biblehub.com/text/ephesians/2-5.htm
[quoting Gaebelein]
"These verses in which we read of the believer’s quickening, his resurrection with Christ and being seated in Christ in the heavenlies, take us back to the time when our blessed Savior Lord was quickened and raised from the dead and seated in glory. It is plain what God did for Him, who died on the cross, He has done for all, who believe on His Son. Many Christians are ignorant of this great truth, while others have difficulty in grasping it. Yet it is quite Simple. Every Christian believes that when the Lord Jesus suffered on the cross He bore our sins in His own body on the tree. With the Apostle Paul every believer is entitled to say in looking back to the cross, “He loved me, He gave Himself for me.” We know all our sins were paid for by Him; all the punishment we deserved fell upon Him, our substitute. In Him we died. All this happened when we were not in existence at all. The sins He bore were not yet committed. God knew all about us and all about our sins and shame, the punishment we deserved, and His ever-blessed Son took all upon Himself. In the same sense God hath quickened us with Christ, raised us up and seated us in Him, when He did this for His Son our Lord Jesus Christ. This is simple, yet so wonderful and deep, that it is incomprehensible. It was all done for us, who believe, when it was done for Him. God in His marvelous counsels in redemption has associated us with Christ. He has made all, who believe on Him, sharers of His life and nature; He brings us into the same relationship as sons, and finally into the same glory and inheritance. Let us bear in mind that all this was done for us in Christ. He is the first one who was quickened, raised up and exalted in glory, and associated with Him are all His members; we share it with Him.
"And all this becomes our blessed portion by faith in Jesus Christ."
--Gaebelein
[end quoting; underline mine]
____________
[end of those quoted previous posts]
For consideration also, IMO, is how 2Cor5:14-15 says, "...because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live..."
UnderGrace said:
Well Mr. Penn Ed.....dead does not mean the inability to believe and no where does scripture state this in fact it is quite the opposite.
I can't. You haven't understood what being dead means.
Phone rings at 3:00 A.M. "Apartment complex on fire, at least 20 people, including 8 children trapped inside, death imminent".
Firefighter leaps out of bed, races to the scene, rushes inside, and SAVES the children and 4 people.
Who did ALL the saving? What part did the saved play?
So we are dead. There is nothing we can do. We can't even, as a natural man understand the Gospel. It is foolishness to the natural man. Which we ALL were, UNTIL GOD reached down and made us alive. HE drew us. We had a divine appt. to hear the Gospel. God quickened us at that moment, we didn't reject it. MOST DO. We heard, were quickened, were given the faith BY GOD, believed, and were BORN Again! Praise GOD!!
HE GET'S ALL THE PRAISE AND GLORY.
NOT me for being smart enough in my human wisdom and intelligence to understand the Gospel. Why rob Him of that by saying it was MY decision that made me alive?
Well Mr. Penn Ed.....dead does not mean the inability to believe and no where does scripture state this in fact it is quite the opposite.
I can't. You haven't understood what being dead means.
Phone rings at 3:00 A.M. "Apartment complex on fire, at least 20 people, including 8 children trapped inside, death imminent".
Firefighter leaps out of bed, races to the scene, rushes inside, and SAVES the children and 4 people.
Who did ALL the saving? What part did the saved play?
So we are dead. There is nothing we can do. We can't even, as a natural man understand the Gospel. It is foolishness to the natural man. Which we ALL were, UNTIL GOD reached down and made us alive. HE drew us. We had a divine appt. to hear the Gospel. God quickened us at that moment, we didn't reject it. MOST DO. We heard, were quickened, were given the faith BY GOD, believed, and were BORN Again! Praise GOD!!
HE GET'S ALL THE PRAISE AND GLORY.
NOT me for being smart enough in my human wisdom and intelligence to understand the Gospel. Why rob Him of that by saying it was MY decision that made me alive?
Yes. Yes it does in fact. You have the cart before the horse....
