100% Election 100% of the time.
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Before the Father sent the Son to create our universe & man. In the event man choose to sin/rebell. The Father already had a predestined PLAN with a PATH to salvation/reconcilation.
The question is: Who places limits on Christ's atonement, God or man?
1 John 2:2 Jesus is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also ""for the sins of the whole world"".
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, ""which taketh away the sin of the world"".
John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give ""for the life of the world"".
1 Timothy 2:6 Who ""gave himself a ransom for all"", to be testified in due time.
Recap: Christ the propitiation = to make reconciliation/atoning sacrifice. 1 Jn 2:2 "for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" Jn 1:29 "TAKES AWAY the SIN of the WORLD" Jn 6:51 "for the life of the WORLD" 1 Tim 2:6 "gave himself a ransom for ALL"
These 4 verses show Christ's death paid for EVERY SIN & His payment CAN include every person "ALL".
HOWEVER, it doesn't do ANYONE any good "until they access Christ's redemptive sin atoning sacrifice & resurrection via/thru/by faith/belief".
The following verses show: Although, Christ's FINISHED work of redemption is open to ALL! It is only applied to those that will CHOOSE to BELIEVE in Christ's sin atonement!
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES in Christ shall have eternal life)
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son "hath" everlasting life & he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES on Christ ""HAS PRESENT TENSE"" eternal life)
John 3:18 But he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(NOTE: UNbelievers in the son ""ARE ALREADY & WILL"" be condemed)
Everyone gets a "CHOICE". "BELIEVE" on the "SON", & you ""HAVE"" Eternal Life! Or "Don't believe & face the wrath of God"
John 11:26 Jesus said; whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES in Christ shall never die)
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(NOTE: Whoever will call on Christ shall be saved)
Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES on Christ)
The only limit on mankinds salvation is: Individual Choice!
(A) Receive God's grace & place your FAITH in the redemptive, sacrificial, sin atoning work of the Christ/Jesus. Found in His: death (sins required wage, PAID), burial (proof Christ died) & resurrection (Gods receipt, sins payment received & accepted).
(B) Reject God's grace remain in unbelief.
A favorite straw man argument:
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
(NOTE: Christ is still alive & has yet to fulfil the laws required payment for sin)
Christ was LIFTED-UP! Note: ""ALL"" in the next verse, will be drawn:
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, """will draw all men unto me""".
(NOTE: Post death & resurrection. Salvation's invitation is extended to everyone. But, salvation comes only to those who CHOOSE to trust/believe)
A sinless Christ, 1 Pet 2:22, 2 Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, 1 Jn 3:5 1 Pet 1:19. Didn't pay for his own sins, HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY.
Christ died & paid for the sins of every person. Whoever "chooses" to accept God's grace & place's their FAITH in Gods predestinated PLAN of salvation.
I believe the view that a persons salvation is already fixed is UNSCRIPTURAL. And the view we choose all by ourselves bypasses Christ's work.
God has offered us a pardon. Accessed via our faith choice, placed in, Christ's redemptive sin atoning work & resurrection.
It's thru God's Grace & by placing our Faith in Christ's FINISHED redemptive work/payment, that are we saved! (Eph 2:8)
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
(NOTE: Justified before or at birth? NO! Justified by a faith choice, we have peace/are reconciled to God via our Faith/choice placed in Christ's redemptive sin atoning payment/work.
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
(NOTE: We access God's grace, thru a faith choice placed in the predestined sin redemptive work of Christ)
This post is My Opinion Only.
The question is: Who places limits on Christ's atonement, God or man?
1 John 2:2 Jesus is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also ""for the sins of the whole world"".
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, ""which taketh away the sin of the world"".
John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give ""for the life of the world"".
1 Timothy 2:6 Who ""gave himself a ransom for all"", to be testified in due time.
Recap: Christ the propitiation = to make reconciliation/atoning sacrifice. 1 Jn 2:2 "for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" Jn 1:29 "TAKES AWAY the SIN of the WORLD" Jn 6:51 "for the life of the WORLD" 1 Tim 2:6 "gave himself a ransom for ALL"
These 4 verses show Christ's death paid for EVERY SIN & His payment CAN include every person "ALL".
HOWEVER, it doesn't do ANYONE any good "until they access Christ's redemptive sin atoning sacrifice & resurrection via/thru/by faith/belief".
The following verses show: Although, Christ's FINISHED work of redemption is open to ALL! It is only applied to those that will CHOOSE to BELIEVE in Christ's sin atonement!
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES in Christ shall have eternal life)
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son "hath" everlasting life & he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES on Christ ""HAS PRESENT TENSE"" eternal life)
John 3:18 But he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(NOTE: UNbelievers in the son ""ARE ALREADY & WILL"" be condemed)
Everyone gets a "CHOICE". "BELIEVE" on the "SON", & you ""HAVE"" Eternal Life! Or "Don't believe & face the wrath of God"
John 11:26 Jesus said; whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES in Christ shall never die)
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(NOTE: Whoever will call on Christ shall be saved)
Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES on Christ)
The only limit on mankinds salvation is: Individual Choice!
(A) Receive God's grace & place your FAITH in the redemptive, sacrificial, sin atoning work of the Christ/Jesus. Found in His: death (sins required wage, PAID), burial (proof Christ died) & resurrection (Gods receipt, sins payment received & accepted).
(B) Reject God's grace remain in unbelief.
A favorite straw man argument:
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
(NOTE: Christ is still alive & has yet to fulfil the laws required payment for sin)
Christ was LIFTED-UP! Note: ""ALL"" in the next verse, will be drawn:
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, """will draw all men unto me""".
(NOTE: Post death & resurrection. Salvation's invitation is extended to everyone. But, salvation comes only to those who CHOOSE to trust/believe)
A sinless Christ, 1 Pet 2:22, 2 Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, 1 Jn 3:5 1 Pet 1:19. Didn't pay for his own sins, HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY.
Christ died & paid for the sins of every person. Whoever "chooses" to accept God's grace & place's their FAITH in Gods predestinated PLAN of salvation.
I believe the view that a persons salvation is already fixed is UNSCRIPTURAL. And the view we choose all by ourselves bypasses Christ's work.
God has offered us a pardon. Accessed via our faith choice, placed in, Christ's redemptive sin atoning work & resurrection.
It's thru God's Grace & by placing our Faith in Christ's FINISHED redemptive work/payment, that are we saved! (Eph 2:8)
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
(NOTE: Justified before or at birth? NO! Justified by a faith choice, we have peace/are reconciled to God via our Faith/choice placed in Christ's redemptive sin atoning payment/work.
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
(NOTE: We access God's grace, thru a faith choice placed in the predestined sin redemptive work of Christ)
This post is My Opinion Only.
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Hi PennEd,
I've read many of your posts & am most often in agreement. I believe you know & love the Lord.
I believe Jn 12:32 teaches all (post resurrection) will be drawn via Rom 10:17, hearing. I'll ad Isa 55:11 & Rev 3:20 here as well.
So, all will be drawn/hear & have a choice to believe Jn 3:36 or not Jn:18. Peace & I love you in Christ our Lord. FD
I've read many of your posts & am most often in agreement. I believe you know & love the Lord.
I believe Jn 12:32 teaches all (post resurrection) will be drawn via Rom 10:17, hearing. I'll ad Isa 55:11 & Rev 3:20 here as well.
So, all will be drawn/hear & have a choice to believe Jn 3:36 or not Jn:18. Peace & I love you in Christ our Lord. FD
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U
When you know every persons live in minute detail that makes up why the act and react they way they do then you may have an answer to this.
Over the years I have had many friends tell me why they did not want to believe and then years later come to belief ... each one had a change of mind, interesting how that happens?
Over the years I have had many friends tell me why they did not want to believe and then years later come to belief ... each one had a change of mind, interesting how that happens?
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If you agreed with ALL my positions I'd have to ask "What the heck is wrong with you!" LOl
NO ONE has EVERY issue exactly right. That's why I started a thread 6 months ago called "Is there anybody out there?" There are about 5 absolute CORE issues I believe EVERY one who names Christ as Savior must believe. I was just offended that some were saying those that believe the Lord ALONE sovereignly Wills who His Children are were preaching a false Gospel.
This THE Gospel unto Salvation, and it really has nothing to do with Calvinism OR Arminianism
God wrapped Himself in human flesh in the form of His Son, Jesus the Messiah. Conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin. He suffered, was crucified, and died to pay OUR sin debt. He was raised to life from the grave to prove He had defeated death. If you confess Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that His Father resurrected Him to Life on the 3rd day, you WILL be saved. You will be filled, and sealed with the Holy Spirit, who will empower ALL to turn from their sins. The sin of adultery, lying, stealing, homosexuality, gossip, slander, drunkenness, covetousness, etc... He will also equip you to love like He did and do good works.
NO ONE has EVERY issue exactly right. That's why I started a thread 6 months ago called "Is there anybody out there?" There are about 5 absolute CORE issues I believe EVERY one who names Christ as Savior must believe. I was just offended that some were saying those that believe the Lord ALONE sovereignly Wills who His Children are were preaching a false Gospel.
This THE Gospel unto Salvation, and it really has nothing to do with Calvinism OR Arminianism
God wrapped Himself in human flesh in the form of His Son, Jesus the Messiah. Conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin. He suffered, was crucified, and died to pay OUR sin debt. He was raised to life from the grave to prove He had defeated death. If you confess Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that His Father resurrected Him to Life on the 3rd day, you WILL be saved. You will be filled, and sealed with the Holy Spirit, who will empower ALL to turn from their sins. The sin of adultery, lying, stealing, homosexuality, gossip, slander, drunkenness, covetousness, etc... He will also equip you to love like He did and do good works.
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Man made concoction? The scriptures that have been posted on the matter thus far are nothing close to a concoction. More like boilerplate doctrine. Propping up "Calvinism" seems to be the straw man to me.
Don't get me wrong.....I do believe that Christ died for "all" and "whosoever", but the doctrine of foreordained election before the foundation of the world is truly overwhelming in the scope of its presentation, and beyond any serious challenge scripturally IMO.
Don't get me wrong.....I do believe that Christ died for "all" and "whosoever", but the doctrine of foreordained election before the foundation of the world is truly overwhelming in the scope of its presentation, and beyond any serious challenge scripturally IMO.
that's how we land in Romans 9:14-24 --- He has mercy on who He has mercy, and compassion on who He has compassion, so that it does not depend on human will, desire or effort, but His mercy. and if we then say, 'how can He blame us, because who can resist His will?' the answer is 'who do you think you are you to judge God and answer back to Him?'
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No one is challenging foreordained election. What is being challenged is the Calvinistic idea of what that means.
GOD PREDESTINES NO ONE FOR SALVATION OR DAMNATION. THAT IS A LIE OF THE DEVIL.
So what is divine election and predestination all about? The Bible makes it crystal clear:
1. TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:29)
2. WHICH MEANS TO BE PERFECTED IN CHRIST
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (Eph 1:4)
3. WHICH MEANS THE FULL POSITION OF BEING *ADOPTED* CHILDREN OF GOD
Having predestinated us unto the adoption* of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will (Eph 1:5)
Divine adoption is not the same as human adoption. Human adoption is accepting children who were not related biologically into the family as children. Divine adoption means placing those who are genuine children of God into the position of full sonship and heirship -- heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ.
*Strong's Concordance
huiothesia: adoption
Original Word: υἱοθεσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: huiothesia
Phonetic Spelling: (hwee-oth-es-ee'-ah)
Definition: adoption
Usage: adoption, as a son into the divine family.
Vine's Expository Dictionary
"Adoption" is a term involving the dignity of the relationship of believers as sons; it is not a putting into the family by spiritual birth, but a putting into the position of sons.
GOD PREDESTINES NO ONE FOR SALVATION OR DAMNATION. THAT IS A LIE OF THE DEVIL.
So what is divine election and predestination all about? The Bible makes it crystal clear:
1. TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:29)
2. WHICH MEANS TO BE PERFECTED IN CHRIST
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (Eph 1:4)
3. WHICH MEANS THE FULL POSITION OF BEING *ADOPTED* CHILDREN OF GOD
Having predestinated us unto the adoption* of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will (Eph 1:5)
Divine adoption is not the same as human adoption. Human adoption is accepting children who were not related biologically into the family as children. Divine adoption means placing those who are genuine children of God into the position of full sonship and heirship -- heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ.
*Strong's Concordance
huiothesia: adoption
Original Word: υἱοθεσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: huiothesia
Phonetic Spelling: (hwee-oth-es-ee'-ah)
Definition: adoption
Usage: adoption, as a son into the divine family.
Vine's Expository Dictionary
"Adoption" is a term involving the dignity of the relationship of believers as sons; it is not a putting into the family by spiritual birth, but a putting into the position of sons.
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I think that what you find repugnant is the notion of "double predestination". This is not a tenet of so called "Calvinism" but more to the point is not scriptural.
katērtismena vs proētoimasen
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/9-22.htm
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/9-23.htm
katērtismena vs proētoimasen
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/9-22.htm
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/9-23.htm
It’s sad that men have tried to put God in a box; as if His intellectual design could not account for a man/women choosing - or is somehow limited to time/space. We see everything linear; He does not. He already knows the choices you will make. He is looking down on to the whole picture. He has seen the movie and knows who the bad guys are.
Adam chose to eat the fruit and there were consequences. God knew this would happen and had a plan for this.
Select Election is something elitists and pharasies would say; they are special and chosen.
IMAGINE your child not being chosen if you believe in that lie; to see them in Hell while you’re in heaven and not because they themselves decided to reject the Lord but because they did not win the lottery.
I agree it is not scriptural and goes against the nature of God as described in the bible.
Adam chose to eat the fruit and there were consequences. God knew this would happen and had a plan for this.
Select Election is something elitists and pharasies would say; they are special and chosen.
IMAGINE your child not being chosen if you believe in that lie; to see them in Hell while you’re in heaven and not because they themselves decided to reject the Lord but because they did not win the lottery.I agree it is not scriptural and goes against the nature of God as described in the bible.
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It’s sad that men have tried to put God in a box; as if His intellectual design could not account for a man/women choosing - or is somehow limited to time/space. We see everything linear; He does not. He already knows the choices you will make. He is looking down on to the whole picture. He has seen the movie and knows who the bad guys are.
Adam chose to eat the fruit and there were consequences. God knew this would happen and had a plan for this.
Select Election is something elitists and pharasies would say; they are special and chosen.IMAGINE your child not being chosen if you believe in that lie; to see them in Hell while you’re in heaven and not because they themselves decided to reject the Lord but because they did not win the lottery.
I agree it is not scriptural and goes against the nature of God as described in the bible.
Adam chose to eat the fruit and there were consequences. God knew this would happen and had a plan for this.
Select Election is something elitists and pharasies would say; they are special and chosen.
IMAGINE your child not being chosen if you believe in that lie; to see them in Hell while you’re in heaven and not because they themselves decided to reject the Lord but because they did not win the lottery.I agree it is not scriptural and goes against the nature of God as described in the bible.
That's not what Paul said about election. I would implore you to take what Jesus and Paul says on the matter (and Peter) seriously.
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