John 6:65
“This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Romans 9 is a devastating rebuttal to them that dispute God's absolute sovereign choice.
100% Election 100% of the time.
- Thread starter cv5
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
“This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Romans 9 is a devastating rebuttal to them that dispute God's absolute sovereign choice.
It is not about the some preferred selection process and gifting.....this is completely contrary to the very nature of God.
We have nothing at all to do in the least with the selection process. Or the gifts.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Its an election process, foreordained before the founding of creation, preplanned, preselected and preserved wholly and unreservedly by Gods Sovereign choice and exclusively by His grace and mercy.
We were not around to make any decisions whatsoever. This was a love gift from the Father to the Son.
Yes, like with the parable of Lazarus. Dead 4 days with no qualifier needed to respond. A picture of the first resurrection when one first hears the word of faith the gospel of their salvation.
Isaiah 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
That day is the first day any believer first believes God who always does the first works. (cause and affect) It opened the graves of the tens of thousands old testament saints when Christ said it is finished and continues to receive new believers that are reigning on earth holding out the gospel as a kingdom of priest. .
Hearing the words recorded in His book, the Bible; "Lazarus, come forth" is another aspect of a fulfillment of Isaiah 29:18.
And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go. John 9:43-44
Jesus said to the disciples to loosen the grave clothes a work of unity of the believers. Knowing it was not the second and last resurrection a brother and sister was needed to loosen that which binds us to the things of this world and continue the work.. .
John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Yes by the power in those who were powerless dead. Not one more or less.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them "gave he" power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
If you believe on his name it a sign he gave you the power . We are to beleive without murmuring. He as our comforter promised us He will not forget the good works we offer toward His name.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings
hilipian2:12-13
((in re: John 5:25))
some of the immediate context:
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom He is pleased to give it.
(John 5:21)
Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
(John 5:25)
Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out — those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
(John 5:28-29)
and the greater context of this whole oration, is
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by Himself; He can do only what He sees His Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does."
(John 5:19)
answering what? answering the charge against Him because He was doing His works on the sabbath - saying, the Father is always working, and He, too is working.
the context even larger than this, is that it is in the book of John -- and yes, as you say, everything in John is 'proofs' of who He is ((re: John 20:30-31)) -- so yes, it is proving that He is the Messiah, the Son of God, God Himself manifested in the flesh. every bit of John is demonstrating that Christ is God.
but those few verses i picked out near John 5:25 -- doesn't He say, those dead who hear His voice and live, are those to whom He grants life -- for He gives it to whom He is pleased to give it ((v.21)), and that tho all are resurrected, some are resurrected to life, and some to judgement - so that those who hear His voice and live in v.25 is not 'all the dead' but those to whom it pleases Him to give life? since some are raised not to life, those very ones being the ones who do not hear His voice ? ((re: John 8:47))
such that there are two different kinds of 'hearing' being spoken of here -- in vv. 28-29, all the dead hear, and are raised. but in v. 25, those who hear are all raised unto life, tho in vv. 28-29 not all are raised unto life, but some to judgement and eternal death.
Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.
(John 8:47)
this is a difficult passage to swallow -- some say, 'the reason you do not belong to God is that you do not hear Him' -- but that is not what Christ says. He says the reason those who do not hear, do not hear, is because they do not belong to Him ((and this is the kind of hearing that results in life, not the broad kind of hearing that may be in-one-ear-and-out-the-other)). it says, His sheep know Him and hear His voice. it does not say, those who hear His voice become His sheep. it says they already belong to Him.
AND
all of this in John 5 is specifically answering the charge against Him of doing His works on sabbath. it is both demonstrating that He is the manifestation of God in flesh, and also all related to His working on the day called the day of rest.
how?
is it not so, that if we are found in Him, and He does nothing of Himself but the Father working through Him, then we also likewise can do nothing of ourselves, but Christ working through us? if this is true -- then how is it that we, being dead, hear His voice and live? that 'hearing' would be a thing we do tho we can do nothing of ourselves - is it not His own power within us, hearing, quickening, and raising to life, so that we can walk in Him? because the life in us, is not us, but Him -- He is 100% "The Resurrection and The Life" ((re: John 11:25))
how is this all about working on the day of rest? true rest is in Him - He who is my rest
didn't He choose Abraham?
didn't He choose Isaac?
didn't He choose Jacob?
i don't quite understand why God exercising choice should be 'completely contrary to His nature' when i read so many times, over and over, Him calling Israel 'His chosen people'
The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
(Deuteronomy 7:7-8)
isn't this His nature? James 2:5? 1 Corinthians 1:26? isn't He always choosing a remnant, and separating goats and sheep, tares and wheat?
if it is really me who chooses, then let me choose to be predestined to choose to be predestined to choose to be predestined to choose to be predestined to choose to be predestined to choose to be predestined to choose to be predestined...
but maybe it is God who predestined me to choose to predestine myself to choose to be predestined to be chosen to predestine myself by choosing to be predestined to choose to be predestined.
or maybe these are equivalent, in the right metric space.
but maybe it is God who predestined me to choose to predestine myself to choose to be predestined to be chosen to predestine myself by choosing to be predestined to choose to be predestined.
or maybe these are equivalent, in the right metric space.
Rather, they won't act on what they hear.
The difference is in the response. It's like saying to a child, "Do you hear me?" You don't mean "hear". You mean "Get busy", "Start moving", "Do what I said".
Jesus wasn't teaching that he and his Father are arbitrary in judgment. He was telling them his judgment is just, because he knows when people are sincerely repentant, as God does. He was equating himself with God.
The text is centered on a miracle Jesus performed. He did miracles so that people would believe, the greatest of which was,
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1Pet.1:21
If God was arbitrary concerning salvation, Jesus's sacrifice would be meaningless.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
if it is really me who chooses, then let me choose to be predestined to choose to be predestined to choose to be predestined to choose to be predestined to choose to be predestined to choose to be predestined to choose to be predestined...
but maybe it is God who predestined me to choose to predestine myself to choose to be predestined to be chosen to predestine myself by choosing to be predestined to choose to be predestined.
or maybe these are equivalent, in the right metric space.
Mr. Posthuman I did not state we choose......however we are called to to believe.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Those who belong, are those who have believed, because they have believed, they belong and hear Him.
To believe is to be persuaded.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
God knew those who would "believe"
It is God's desire that all would believe and be saved, however many suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
God did not create robots, we were created to glorify Him, it is only through God's design of human autonomy that God's sovereignty is manifested.
Quite simple actually.
they are related for sure, but they are not saying the same thing ((quoting GNV)):
He that planted the ear, shall He not hear? or He that formed the eye, shall He not see?
(Psalm 94:9)
The Lord hath made both these, even the ear to hear, and the eye to see.
(Proverbs 20:12)
(Proverbs 20:12)
the ear and the eye of the LORD are uncreated. there is nothing that escapes His hearing or His sight, but there is much that escapes the hearing and seeing of mankind -- and even among those things man sees, and hears, among men there are many who do not hear, and do not see.
the proverb is telling us that whoever sees, God has made their eye, and made it to see. and whoever hears, God has made their ear, and made it to hear.
the psalm is telling us God is neither blind nor deaf.
i wouldn't say the point of the proverb is the psalm - tho the point of the psalm may in fact be the proverb - because, look at what immediately precedes it:
Yet they say, The Lord shall not see: neither will the God of Jacob regard it.
Understand, ye unwise among the people: and ye fools, when will ye be wise?
(Psalm 94:7-8)
and what immediately follows:
Or He that chastiseth the nations, shall He not correct? He that teacheth man knowledge, shall He not know?
The Lord knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.
(Psalm 94:10-11)
this follows the same pattern as v.9, and speaks of knowledge, the thoughts of man, in the same way it speaks of seeing and hearing -- and it is clear: the thoughts of man are empty & futile. we are ignorant. so it is likewise that man is blind and deaf: but if man hears, and man sees, it is the Lord who makes the ear that hears, and the eye that sees.
so, i see, the psalm pointing to the proverb - and the proverb presuming the rhetorical fat of the psalm: God sees, God hears, God knows. if i know, if i hear, and i see, it is because God has granted it to me in His mercy: i do not exist of myself, but because He created me & sustains me
now, trying to stay relevant to the thread -- is this a sovereign-election view the scripture presents, or a human-free-agency view? if i am blind, can i cause myself to see? can i cause my deaf ears to hear?
Those who belong, are those who have believed, because they have believed, they belong and hear Him.
To believe is to be persuaded.
but Jesus specifically states the causation in the converse: those that believe, do so because they belong.
let A = belong to God
let B = hear God
define the operator "⇒" such that
f ⇒ g
denotes that f causes gthere are four possible causative cases:
- A ⇒ B
- A causes B
- A ⇐ B
- B causes A
- A ⇔ B
- both A causes B and B causes A
- neither A ⇒ B nor A ⇐ B
- there is no causative relationship between A & B
Christ's statement in John 8, "whoever belongs to God hears what God says; the reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God" is equivalently translated into the language of math as "A ⇒ B"
this rules out the 4th possible causative case -- it is impossible that there is no causative relationship; He stated that there is.
it does not rule out the second case, but it implies necessarily that if the second case is true, it is the third case which is ultimately the truth: that there is simultaneous causation.
however:
causation implies time. without time, there is not causation, because ((at least in our human sense of causality)) if C causes D, C necessarily comes before D -- causality can in fact be used in order to define what time is.
so id the first case is absolutely true -- and it must be, because Jesus explicitly states it -- that belonging to God causes hearing God -- then we need to ask the question whether case 2 is really even a possible case at all, or if only case 1 and case 4 are possible: because God certainly pre-exists mankind and it is impossible that man pre-exists God. can the belief of man, who exists only later in time than God, cause the belonging of man to God? or is it only possible because of the relationship in time of man to God, that the ownership of man by God can cause the hearing of those who belong to Him?
btw @Nehemiah6 -- if you can follow the logical mathematics here, i have just proven that the Arminian view ((in the particular aspect being discussed)) can only be simultaneously true with the Calvinist view. it cannot be the case that only your Arminian view is true with regard to the causative relationship between belief and election.
and i did it without opinion, only fact
I mean, I don't see how your opinion negates the very Word.
The Word says, and not just where I posted, that not ALL the dead will hear. The Word says whom Jesus Wills can hear.
This idea of decisional birth BY THOSE BEING BORN can be in a sense the last, ultimate "work" that a person needs to abandon. If I were like Nehemiah 6, I might say that is a false Gospel. (would be a little offensive huh? Well his reverse statement the same!)
Not ALL who hear will believe. Why is that? You may say it is because they reject the Truth in unrighteousness,because they love their sin, and you would be right. But it doesn't explain why WE heard The gospel and believed, as WE loved our sin just as they.
So was it my great faith, that I mustered out of my own will and strength, that got me to believe? Or was it God, who GAVE me that faith to believe? I contend the latter. The former can easily lead to a boast.