Not By Works

[Macabeus]

Where did dcon say paul wrote 1 john?
🤔

Oh, yeah. You're the guy who didn't know that taking taking the concept of two natures, quoting Paul as having taught the doctrine, and then applying it to 1 John 3:6-10 is transposing a teaching from one context to another, from a context where it does exist (various Pauline texts) to a context where the teaching is not mentioned (ie 1 John 3). I remember you now.

I said "1 John 3 is not about two natures, and DC said "Pal, you have no idea"

Which is basically trying to say I am wrong about 1 John 3:6-10.

SO taking a Pauline teaching of two natures, and applying it to John is why I said what I said in your quote above about what Dcon said

 

[Macabeus]

Yeah, This kind of faceless discussion forum leaves it open to trolls.

I'm here to learn, perhaps even learn the strategies of the enemy too.

I appreciate the warning. I will be careful.

May the Kingdom Come into full authority soon!

I think it's close, the furor is getting deafening!

If you will read my posts, you will find that I am no troll. Do you find fault in the post below? Did I say anything offensive or even wrong? This is the post Oneofhis took offense to, a post where I basically agreed with him and then just added my two cents on the results of justification. SO tell me if you see anything wrong with this post, even reading it in context.

Yes, and then after justification, we live our lives to God out of love and gratitude, BECAUSE OF OUR NEW NATURE. Not perfectly, but there should be SOME love and gratitude, and concern about other people IF WE ARE BORN OF GOD>

Descriptive of truly regenerate, NOT prescriptive of how to be saved or stay saved. Just a statement of fact about people who have been born of God.

 

[SimpleGardner]

The reason they are still seen as workers of iniquity, is because they are not sinless.

In order to be seen as sinless we need the righteousness of Jesus imputed to us.

(which is by grace through faith)

I see your point and I agree...I am referring to those who literally say that the commandments of God are bad in that if we see them as good in any way we are voiding grace which is absurd. The Grace of God makes me love His commandments even more! Whats wrong with honoring Dad and mom? Or being on your guard against coveting? Or looking out for your neighbors animals if they come on my property, or leaving fruit in my orchard for the poor and on and on. I find these considerations written in the law a beautiful reflection of God and Jesus. Does that make sense?

 

[Macabeus]

Yes, and then after justification, we live our lives to God out of love and gratitude, BECAUSE OF OUR NEW NATURE. Not perfectly, but there should be SOME love and gratitude, and concern about other people IF WE ARE BORN OF GOD>

Descriptive of truly regenerate, NOT prescriptive of how to be saved or stay saved. Just a statement of fact about people who have been born of God.

Someone please tell me what is offensive about this post.

 

[Macabeus]

I see your point and I agree...I am referring to those who literally say that the commandments of God are bad in that if we see them as good in any way we are voiding grace which is absurd. The Grace of God makes me love His commandments even more! Whats wrong with honoring Dad and mom? Or being on your guard against coveting? Or looking out for your neighbors animals if they come on my property, or leaving fruit in my orchard for the poor and on and on. I find these considerations written in the law a beautiful reflection of God and Jesus. Does that make sense?

Makes sense to me. We just aren't under the ceremonial law, because Jesus fulfilled it. But the righteous requirements of the Law are fulilled in us when we walk after the Spirit, not after the flesh.

 

[Macabeus]

Makes sense to me. We just aren't under the ceremonial law, because Jesus fulfilled it. But the righteous requirements of the Law are fulilled in us when we walk after the Spirit, not after the flesh.

I suppose Oneofhis will call this a red herring too, because I added a little more info to what you said.

 

[SimpleGardner]

If you will read my posts, you will find that I am no troll. Do you find fault in the post below? Did I say anything offensive or even wrong? This is the post Oneofhis took offense to, a post where I basically agreed with him and then just added my two cents on the results of justification. SO tell me if you see anything wrong with this post, even reading it in context.

I don't think so, I haven't looked at them all, but I do recognize that there is such a division on this topic and that if we all would take a moment and consider if this division among people who agree on practically 99% of the other matter in Christianity we might realize that we are being duped by demonic forces. Beleive me, there is a place of rest amongst ourselves on this critical doctrinal impasse

 

[SimpleGardner]

Makes sense to me. We just aren't under the ceremonial law, because Jesus fulfilled it. But the righteous requirements of the Law are fulilled in us when we walk after the Spirit, not after the flesh.

Well put, but doesn't the scripture express the "Grace" of God the point where he literally puts a desire to do His will/Keep His Commandments in our hearts?

 

[Macabeus]

I don't think so, I haven't looked at them all, but I do recognize that there is such a division on this topic and that if we all would take a moment and consider if this division among people who agree on practically 99% of the other matter in Christianity we might realize that we are being duped by demonic forces. Beleive me, there is a place of rest amongst ourselves on this critical doctrinal impasse

DO you think that the doctrine of justification by faith can be used to support a hypothesis of a man being saved 50 years and never doing anything beneficial for God or man? Can the fourth chapter of Romans support such an hypothesis? Let me know what you think.

 

[Macabeus]

Well put, but doesn't the scripture express the "Grace" of God the point where he literally puts a desire to do His will/Keep His Commandments in our hearts?

Of course. And if we desire to do His will, and Christ gives us the power to do His Will, how will we then live 50 years of idleness, laxity, and apathy, like DCON's hypothetical man.

 

[Macabeus]

Of course. And if we desire to do His will, and Christ gives us the power to do His Will, how will we then live 50 years of idleness, laxity, and apathy, like DCON's hypothetical man.

You don't have to answer, just a rhetorical question

 

[SimpleGardner]

DO you think that the doctrine of justification by faith can be used to support a hypothesis of a man being saved 50 years and never doing anything beneficial for God or man? Can the fourth chapter of Romans support such an hypothesis? Let me know what you think.

Well, that's a "what if" and they are always trouble. I would say that we have to apply the wisdom of Jesus; Judge a tree by it's fruit"

 

[Macabeus]

Well, that's a "what if" and they are always trouble. I would say that we have to apply the wisdom of Jesus; Judge a tree by it's fruit"

Yeah, I thought it was a strange question too. And then to use Romans 4 to argue in support of that hypothesis is just plain wrong.

 

[OneOfHis]

I see your point and I agree...I am referring to those who literally say that the commandments of God are bad in that if we see them as good in any way we are voiding grace which is absurd. The Grace of God makes me love His commandments even more! Whats wrong with honoring Dad and mom? Or being on your guard against coveting? Or looking out for your neighbors animals if they come on my property, or leaving fruit in my orchard for the poor and on and on. I find these considerations written in the law a beautiful reflection of God and Jesus. Does that make sense?

Oh absolutely, I reject the idea that us who are saved already... born again... given a new heart and quickened spirit... can "sin all they want"...


When God makes us new
He makes it so we DESIRE His righteousness in our lives

we wish to be shining lights and examples of His love

He castens us when we fall short
and encourages us to walk with a clean heart
through His word
trials
our brothers and sisters in Christ


we are not saved nor kept saved by the amount of fruit He produces in us
but we are transformed and wish to be fruitful for Him who saved us and loved us first
and
we don't want sin when we are in Christ


...though our flesh remains and it is still possible to fall short
unlike before regeneration, where sin which was a victory to take pleasure in

after being made new it is a shame which we wish to be delivered from

(but all glory to God... salvation does not rest on our own shoulders)

 

[SimpleGardner]

One more think, Jesus did say that any tree not bearing fruit would be cut down and burned in the fire?

 

[SimpleGardner]

Oh absolutely, I reject the idea that us who are saved already... born again... given a new heart and quickened spirit... can "sin all they want"...


When God makes us new
He makes it so we DESIRE His righteousness in our lives

we wish to be shining lights and examples of His love

He castens us when we fall short
and encourages us to walk with a clean heart
through His word
trials
our brothers and sisters in Christ


we are not saved nor kept saved by the amount of fruit He produces in us
but we are transformed and wish to be fruitful for Him who saved us and loved us first
and
we don't want sin when we are in Christ


...though our flesh remains and it is still possible to fall short
unlike before regeneration, where sin which was a victory to take pleasure in

after being made new it is a shame which we wish to be delivered from

(but all glory to God... salvation does not rest on our own shoulders)

Excellent points, and well said too, but what about the tree that sdoes not bear fruit being hewn down and cast in the fire?

 

[OneOfHis]

Excellent points, and well said too, but what about the tree that sdoes not bear fruit being hewn down and cast in the fire?

John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


there are two sorts of brances here


branches that bare fruit
_____
"every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit"
"He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit"


and branches void of any fruit
____
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"
"As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself"


this whole thing is largely an example of the power of CHRIST in His own

compared to the lack of power in fakers

dont you understand when this is being said?

what judas already did and what was about to happen?

.....
this is about two separate sorts of men/women who claim to be in Him and are part of the congregation


nothing to do with how to earn salvation

(it is a gift by grace through faith)

nothing to do with the loss of salvation to one of His




void of any fruit what so ever would also mean no faith...

that would be a powerless tree

but men can't see all like God

man may say "where is this persons fruit" through a series of poor encounters

but God may know them and be working in them already


... even peter denied Jesus 3 times

there were men who could have clearly stated "he is not a believer"

but God knew better

 

[Macabeus]

This is why I responded to Oneofhis post quoting Romans 4:4, because the verse had already been misappropriated NUMEROUS TIMES so I felt the need to CLARIFY. Here is but one example in which the text was abused.

Yeah, I thought it was a strange question too. And then to use Romans 4 to argue in support of that hypothesis is just plain wrong.

Check out all the times DC uses Romans 4:4 and the way he is using

Good job of putting the cart before the horse, UnderGrace. WORKS follow salvation, just as I said at least 100 times. I can see why it takes 102,000 posts to establish anything. Some of you guys either don't read or you have really bad memories

and if they do not?

My bible is clear........but Macaroni cannot accept the following truth...it destroys his religious blather....

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[Macabeus]

Why quote me?

This thread gives glory and praise to God for salvation...

Who said anything about not loving our Father who loved us first?

You making one of those "red herrings" you complain about so much?

This is why I responded to your post quoting Romans 4:4, because the verse had already been misappropriated BY OTHERS NUMEROUS TIMES so I felt the need to CLARIFY. Here is but one example in which the text was abused. if you want more, I can probably produce at least a few, just ask.

Macabeus said:
Good job of putting the cart before the horse, UnderGrace. WORKS follow salvation, just as I said at least 100 times. I can see why it takes 102,000 posts to establish anything. Some of you guys either don't read or you have really bad memories

UnderGrace said:
and if they do not?

dcontroversal said:
My bible is clear........but Macaroni cannot accept the following truth...it destroys his religious blather....
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I said works follow salvation, ie come after one is already saved. DC argued against that point by quoting Romans 4, a clear misappropriation and abuse of the text.

 

[SimpleGardner]

John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


there are two sorts of brances here


branches that bare fruit
_____
"every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit"
"He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit"


and branches void of any fruit
____
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"
"As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself"


this whole thing is largely an example of the power of CHRIST in His own

compared to the lack of power in fakers

dont you understand when this is being said?

what judas already did and what was about to happen?

.....
this is about two separate sorts of men/women who claim to be in Him and are part of the congregation


nothing to do with how to earn salvation

(it is a gift by grace through faith)

nothing to do with the loss of salvation to one of His




void of any fruit what so ever would also mean no faith...

that would be a powerless tree

but men can't see all like God

man may say "where is this persons fruit" through a series of poor encounters

but God may know them and be working in them already


... even peter denied Jesus 3 times

there were men who could have clearly stated "he is not a believer"

but God knew better

You are absolutely right in that there are Judas' among us and they are there to divide the household of faith. There are also those in the household of faith who are still learning and growing in knowledge. If a beleiver is passionate about an error they persist in, pray for them. I have found many beleivers who are steeped in error due to PASSION and ignorance. But, I must confess that I love their PASSION! Know what I mean?! I will not stop praying for them until that brother is delivered from their error, but I will not let any bitterness, which the enemy wants me to embrace for them, seep in. I can love them in their error. Jesus absolutely LOVED his disciples even in their ignorance. He knew the Spirit of truth and their commitment to studying would deliver them. He prayed that they would not be divided, but that they would be ONE.

Joh 17:6-17 KJV I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. (7) Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. (8) For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. (9) I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. (10) And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. (11) And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. (12) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (13) And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. (14) I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. (15) I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. (16) They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. (17) Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.