Mystery Babylon

Lanolin · Jun 16, 2019

You are not understanding. I think this has to be my last entry into this thread. Best of Luck.

Ref: Wikipedia Roasary
"According to pious tradition, the concept of the rosary was given to Saint Dominic in an apparition of the Virgin Mary during the year 1214 in the church of Prouille, though in fact it was known from the ninth century in various forms. "This Marian apparition received the title of Our Lady of the Rosary.[23] In the 15th century it was promoted by Alanus de Rupe (aka Alain de la Roche or Blessed Alan of the Rock), a Dominican priest and theologian, who established the "fifteen rosary promises" and started many rosary confraternities.

These modern day statues of Mary that people pray to, the rosary that people pray to, they are not authorized from scripture. They are inspired by these marian apparations.

Bottom Line:
Marian apparitions are of God (if so, then you better start praying the rosary)
Or
Marian apparitions are of the devil. (than that woman is not Mary, but just some WHORE that is being worshipped)

It seems you are trying to justify that these marian apparitions can be neither good or bad.
Perhaps re-read 1John 4:1-3.

No am just saying to test the spirits.
The rosary is neither here nor there. Does the spirit confess that Jesus Christ came in the flesh?

Waggles · Jun 16, 2019

Lanolin said:

No these apparitions do not.
The apparitions of Mary (sometimes with child) are pretty well always directed to the Catholic faithful to remain faithful and to
uphold the Holy Father (the Pope) and the true mother church: the church of Rome.
The Rosary beads and the repetition of prayers by rote memory - multiple Hail Mary prayers followed by one Our Father - as one uses
the rosary beads to count off pious commitment is again a direct correlation to Eastern Asian religions: for example the same use
of prayer beads by Buddhists to continue their prayer mantras …

One has to travel around the world and see other temples and religious rites in action to notice the similarities between
Roman Catholic worship and other religions.
Another example is the multi-tiered array of candles in a RCC church often with a statue of Mary and child above, to which
the faithful light candles and offer prayers to this statute.
You can see pretty well exactly the same thing in Buddhist temples except replace the statue with Buddha.

Waggles · Jun 16, 2019

Lanolin said:

You need to get out and spend time with real Roman Catholics - they do indeed worship Mary and pray to her statue [in contravention
to the prohibitions in scripture not to worship idols and graven images].
Mary being the mother of God is now the intercessory medium for the prayers of the RCC faithful, not Jesus.

And all those statues of Mary that shed real human blood - yes real human female blood - bring the faithful in busloads to
these sites where the statue itself is venerated and prayed to -
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Thessalonians 2:

Nebuchadnezzer · Jun 17, 2019

Waggles said:

I have recently been saved and have come to understand the truth. I was raised Catholic, but all my family (mon, dad, sister) remain. Do I even attempt to show them this? If so do you have any suggestions on how to go about it? However I approach it, I know I must be compassionate and loving and patient.

Lanolin · Jun 17, 2019

Waggles said:

Hmm. No thanks. Why because that stuff freaks me out and reminds me of vampire books by Anne Rice who was a mixed up catholic. I dont know what you mean by 'real' roman catholics. But I was once interviewed for a job at a catholic school. They never got back to me. So I didnt get to see if they had statues of Mary in every class room or bowed down to the pope. Had a catholic workmate whos parents had a shrine of statues in their bedroom and a half catholic neighbour who sometimes sent me scary religious pictures meant to be of Jesus and Mary. I didnt know what I was meant to do with it, they were like trading cards so maybe they wanted me to collect them all.

But ya know, Im not bothered by them because I know who my saviour is. If the spirit of Mary did actually appear to me Im sure I would test her to see if she was genuine.

The pilgirms at Lourdes etc want to believe in miracles, Im not going to hold it against them. I cant stop anyone who wants to pray a rosary but thats their choice. Try talking to a catholic entrenched in their beliefs and they wont budge. Just pray for them and say youve got a direct line while they got told to pray to someone else who doesnt have access to the throne of God. Theres only one mediator between God and man, and thats through Jesus. Why people think its through his mother I dont know.

I'm not impressed by bleeding statues. Is that blood meant to be pouring from that ladies eyes????

GracethroughfaithinChrist · Jun 17, 2019

Nebuchadnezzer said:

By love and Biblical truth.

Ephesians 1:6-7
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

tanakh · Jun 17, 2019

Lanolin said:

Its more obvious that the Harlot vision in Revelation is a parody of a Jewish High Priest. The Roman Catholic Church as we know it didn't exist when Revelation was written. All the visions in Revelation have their roots in Bible passages not 21st Century interpretations. See Leviticus Chapter 39:27-30 The only colour not seen on the Harlot is Blue because the colour represents holiness and the Harlot isn't holy!

Waggles · Jun 17, 2019

Nebuchadnezzer said:

NO
Give time for your new testimony to mature and shine. If they are seeking something more than religion and ritual they will
ask you about your faith and about what you have.
It is the same with Lutherans. They are all secure in their church and comfortable with how things are.
Until God draws a person out of worldly religion they are not spiritually motivated to seek for a greater truth.
I too was Roman Catholic and said my Hail Marys and released souls from purgatory. But when I received the baptism of the
Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues I knew with all confidence, with all truth, that Jesus is God and my Saviour.

Do not challenge their Catholicism with notions of mystery babylon or how wrong the Papacy is.
Seeing the truth of a religious faith requires one to be outside of that faith.
Let them see your walk and your testimony, that is the way.

Nick

Lanolin · Jun 17, 2019

tanakh said:

Well yea how was John meant to know it was about the RCC when it hadnt even been begun yet.

I remember one poster kept insisting that it was other nations that 'played the harlot' Bible refers to playing the harlots as those Israelites that have gone astray from their first love. I dont think they read the part in the Bible where Tamar actually played a harlot.

PlainWord · Nov 10, 2019

Lanolin said:

It WAS Jerusalem. She was the Harlot that was destroyed in 70 CE.

After her fall, Jerusalem was depicted as a fallen woman by Roman coins called, "Judea Capta" with a Roman solder standing over her.

Lanolin · Nov 10, 2019

I cant really see it in that coin, just looks like somene sitting down, not fallen over. Or fallen. What does a fallen woman look like anyway?

Also, Jerusalem is still here. Temple may be gone, but city itself hasnt been erased from existence. People still live there and call it Jerusalem. Unlike some other cities and places like...Machhu Piccu. Easter Island. pompeii. SOdom and Gomorrah.

Some cities are bankrupt like Detroit. Most people have abandoned it. Some places are ghost towns. But Jerusalem seems thriving. For the moment.

Nebuchadnezzer · Nov 10, 2019

Lanolin said:

Mystery Babylon fits to Rome.

Revelation 11:8 is one verse that seems to throw a wrench into this view:
"and their dead bodies [the two witnesses] will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified."

The Sodom and Egypt fit well to Rome:
- Sodom is to Rome's whoring as viewed by some of the reformers.
- Egypt (alexandira) was the intellectual and cultural center of the ancient world for some time. Later the world was ruled by Rome. Rome later became the capital of Christianity, and is still today despite the fact that we don't like it or agree to it.

"where their Lord was crucified" seems to contradict this view by pointing to Jersusalem. However, I see these words as also fitting to Rome.

Rome is the heart and center of Catholism, where:
1) our Lord is perpetually hung on a cross in St. Peter's Basilica
2) our Lord is perpetually crucified through the stations of the cross in St. Peter's Basilica Piazza, Rome, Italy
3) our Lord is perpetually sacrificed on an altar in St. Peter's Basilica
https://www.romereports.com/en/2019...ation-of-st-peters-basilicas-oldest-crucifix/

For correct interpretation everything has to fit, and with Rome it does.

RevelationMan · Nov 10, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

Hello again,

Just like with all Biblical subjects, we must look to the word of God for the answers. I have posted on this topic many times in refutation of those who claim that Babylon the Great as being Jerusalem. Therefore, let's look at the clues that God gives us in His word:

1). The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.” - Rev.17:18

So, the woman who rides the beast, is representing that great city that rules over the kings of the earth. At the time that John was receiving this information from the angel, Rome was that city that was ruling over the kings of the earth, not Jerusalem. When has Jerusalem ever ruled over the kings of the earth? The answer would be, never.

2). This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits - Rev.17:19

Rome was literally built on and is famous for her seven hills. They even use the seven hills as a lure for tourism in their ads. Though many attempt to have Jerusalem sitting on seven hills/mountains, she does not. They attempt to force Jerusalem to be sitting on seven hills in support of their belief. The reference to the woman/city sitting on seven hills, is referring to her religious headquarters.

In Rev.17:1, the woman is also said to be sitting on "many waters," which is referring to the influence of the woman's Babylonian based religious system, which is why she is called "Mystery, Babylon the Great." Regarding the "many waters" we are told in Rev.17:15 that the waters represent "peoples and multitudes and nations and languages," which again would refer to the woman's religious world-wide influence over all people. Within Roman Catholicism can be found many of the rites and rituals which stem from Babylon. This is evident with their worship of Mary, which stems from Babylon's "Queen of heaven" worship" which was transposed upon her. Then you also have "mother and son worship, which stems from Semiramis and Tamuz, Isis and Horus, etc., and was transposed upon Mary and Jesus. Even the Mitre hat that the pope and other bishops wear, closely resembles the fish hat that the Philistine's priests of Dagon wore.

3). The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls. - Rev.17:4

There are those who have attempted to apply the purple and scarlet to the colors worn by the priest's of Israel, which is just another forced attempt while ignoring the rest of the clues. We have already seen that Jerusalem does not fit any of the previous clues and therefore purple and scarlet cannot be pointing to Israel's priests.

This is just one more clue to who the woman is, for purple and scarlet are the exact colors worn by the bishops and cardinals within Roman Catholicism:

View attachment 197851 View attachment 197853 View attachment 197854

Regarding her being adorned with gold and precious stones, this speaks of her luxury. Most of the utensils, candle sticks, plates, etc., are either made of pure gold or overlaid with it. But, even though these clues identify Rome as that great city, there is one more very conclusive reason as to why Babylon the Great, that city that sits on seven hills, cannot be referring to Jerusalem. In Rev.18:21-23 Babylon the Great is destroyed, so much so, that no one will ever be able to inhabit her again, as can be concluded from the information below:

* With such violence the great city of Babylon will be cast down, never to be seen again.

* And the sound of harpists and musicians, of flute players and trumpeters, will never ring out in you again.

* Nor will any craftsmen of any trade be found in you again, nor the sound of a millstone be heard in you again.

* The light of a lamp will never shine in you again,

* and the voices of a bride and bridegroom will never call out in you again.

It is apparent from the information above, that whatever is going to destroy that great city is also going to keep people from inhabiting it ever again. Her destruction takes place during the last 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation period, which is prior to the millennial kingdom. Below is the reason why Jerusalem cannot be Babylon the Great:

"When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them." - Rev.20:7-9

As the scripture states, the event above takes place after Satan is released, which is at the end of the thousand years. It reveals that the people figuratively called Gog and Magog will surround the camp of God's people, the city that He loves, which could only be referring to Jerusalem. This demonstrates that Jerusalem will be inhabited during the millennial period up to the very end. Where in opposition, Babylon the great will be destroyed prior to the millennial kingdom, ergo, Babylon the Great cannot possibly be referring to Jerusalem.

the passage says that these hills are also 7 kings. It seems to me that much of Rev 17 is referring to spiritual beings principalities and powers. These 7 kings are 7 spiritual beings that have been given spiritual authority over that city and the hills are referring to the regional boundaries of their power which are shaped like hills. I also think that both Rome (on 7 hills) and Las Vegas (in the desert) fit the image of Mystery Babylon especially if you consider the spiritual interpretation of the hills as described above.

Lanolin · Nov 10, 2019

I am still not sure really. Some verses fits Rome and some verses fits Jerusalem.

Rome is a sea port, no? Jerusalem isnt. Revelation does mention ships.

Ahwatukee · Nov 10, 2019

Nebuchadnezzer said:

Hello Nebuchadnezzer,

Just fyi, the great city that is symbolically called Sodom and Egypt where the two witnesses will lie in the streets, is referring to Jerusalem, not Rome. The clue to this is that it states that the great city is were the two witnesses will be crucified. That can't be Rome. The scripture is not figuratively referring to where their Lord was crucified, but literally.

Both Israel and Rome are in view in Revelation, so it is important to discern between the two. For example, in Rev.12 you have a woman who is clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars. Then in Rev.17 you have a woman, also called a prostitute and Babylon the great, which is referring to Rome. These are two different woman figuratively representing Israel and Rome. And they are both called "great cities."

Ahwatukee · Nov 10, 2019

RevelationMan said:

First of all, I don't know how we got on this subject, because this subject is not what we previously speaking about. However, the problem with the seven mountains figuratively representing seven spiritual beings, opposed to seven literal kings, is that there is nothing in the context that would infer that they are anything other than literal, human kings. The only king that is mentioned as being spiritual, is the eight king, who is that angel of the Abyss also referred to as, the beast.

As John was receiving this information from the angel, he said that five had fallen, i.e. five have ruled and gone. Then the angels said, "one is" meaning that king number six was ruling at the time that John was receiving that information and that king number seven was yet to come.

"The woman you saw is that city that rules over the kings of the earth"

At the time that John was receiving this information, Rome was that city that ruled over the kings of the earth.

"The seven heads are seven hills upon which the woman sits."

Therefore, the woman which is a city is sitting on seven hills/mountains. Rome was literally built on and is famous for her seven hills.

Seven heads = Seven hills upon which the woman sits

Seven heads = They also represent seven kings, five have fallen, one is and the other has not yet come. When he does come he will remain for short time.

Since the context is speaking about Rome, I believe that these seven kings were Roman emperors. The eighth king will be that angel of the Abyss who will come out and will be the spiritual power behind the antichrist. The first time we read about the beast is in Rev.9, where at the sounding of the 6th trumpet, an angel opens the Abyss releasing those demonic beings and whose king is that angel of the Abyss, where at which time is when he comes up out of the Abyss.

In addition to all this, the scripture also states that "the woman was dressed in scarlet and purple." These are the exact colors worn by the cardinals and bishops of Roman Catholicism.

Nebuchadnezzer · Nov 11, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

There is no mention of a city or a great city in Revelation 12.

In Revelation 11:2 John refers to the "holy city", which could very well be Jerusalem.

But Revelation 11:8 refers to "the great city".

In the Book of Revelation, ‘the great city’ usually refers to Babylon (Rev 14:8). Babylon’s army caused Israel’s people to suffer greatly at the time of Jeremiah. However, in the Book of Revelation, Babylon is itself a word-picture for Rome (see Revelation 17:9; Rome stood on 7 hills). Rome was the most powerful city in the world at the time of John. Rome’s government caused God’s people (both Israel’s people and the first Christians) to suffer greatly.

PlainWord · Nov 11, 2019

Lanolin said:

Please read the text of Rev 18 very carefully. First century Jerusalem fits the description perfectly. At the time, Jerusalem rivaled Rome as the greatest, and richest, city on earth. Five times Jerusalem was conquered, twice it was left desolate. The first time it was totally destroyed by who? You guessed it - Babylon. The second time was by Rome.

Now look what Christ said about it in Luke 19 below. I am not aware of any other city in the NT where utter destruction was predicted or foretold.

41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

Consider Jerusalem's crimes. #1) They rejected and killed their Messiah. Can there be any greater sin?

Now to your point about Jerusalem still standing. This is only because it was eventually rebuilt. But it was utterly and totally destroyed with not one stone left upon another, just as Jesus predicted. Not just the temple, THE ENTIRE CITY. The only things left were 3 Roman towers which they left to show their victory and dominance. In fact the Western Wall in Jerusalem was NOT part of the temple compound, rather it was part of Fort Antonia. The Jews today are worshiping a structure that Rome used in its final assault on the temple. How ironic. They still don't get it.

Now look at what Josephus says. Compare to what Jesus and John say. I've bolded and underlined the common descriptions:

Phineas showed Titus the coats and girdles of the priests, with a great quantity of purple and scarlet, which were there reposited for the uses of the veil, as also a great deal of cinnamon and cassia, with a large quantity of other sweet spices, which used to be mixed together, and offered as incense to God every day. A great many other treasures were also delivered to him, with sacred ornaments of the temple not a few; which things thus delivered to Titus..." (War 6-8-3).

Now compare with Rev 17-18:

4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication.

6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.

11 “And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore: 12 merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble; 13 and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men... 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”

Who did Jesus say would be responsible for the blood of prophets and saints in Mat 23?

‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’ 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

JOSEPHUS SAYS, "the priests that were pined with the famine came down, and when they were brought to Titus by the guards, they begged for their lives; but he replied, that the time of pardon was over as to them, and that this very holy house, on whose account only they could justly hope to be preserved, was destroyed; and that it was agreeable to their office that priests should perish with the house itself to which they belonged. So he ordered them to be put to death. "

PlainWord · Nov 11, 2019

Lanolin said:

Rome is 32 KM from the sea. Look how Josephus described the destruction of the temple in War 6-5-1:

The flame was also carried a long way, and made an echo, together with the groans of those that were slain; and because this hill was high, and the works at the temple were very great, one would have thought the whole city had been on fire. Nor can one imagine any thing either greater or more terrible than this noise; for there was at once a shout of the Roman legions, who were marching all together, and a sad clamor of the seditious, who were now surrounded with fire and sword.

The destruction by fire of Jerusalem, located on a hill, would be visible from the Med. Ships far off, not near!!!

Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance 18 and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What is like this great city?’

garee · Nov 11, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

I would think we would widen that search and look to all things that are part of the mystery .

The two witness are the witness of God. The law and the prophets (sola scriptura) Signified by Moses and Elijah. God will not accept the witness of men his as it is written is the greater.

The two kingdoms are the kingdom of this world. And the new Jerusalem. The kingdom of the bride of Christ ...the new name he named her, Christian ...a word that literally means residents of the unseen city . She is represented by the parable in Revelation 12 according to the signified interpretation instruction that given in the opening of the book. . . signified the revealing of the hidden things of God.

Revelation 1;1 King James Version (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

.In Revelation 11 the last verse informs us the temple of God was opened in heaven and the final destruction earthquakes and hail destroying the corrupted earth .

Its the end of time , No need for the temporal time keepers they are under her feet, No more night. She is clothed with the righteousness of Christ as bright as the Sun .

Its the end of time. The bride of Christ called the mother of us all is shown coming down on the last day receiving her promised new incorruptible body

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman (Christ's bride) clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, (the end of time) and upon her head a crown of twelve stars :And she (the church, the mother of us all) being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Paul used to represent the surrogate womb laboring in pains of birth as he held out the gospel. . till Christ formed his will in Timothy who was later used as a metaphor the chaste virgin bride the church.

Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Galatian 4 :26 But Jerusalem (Christ bride the church) which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The church as the mother of us all is the chaste virgin bride..

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Revelation 12 2 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

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