The Days of the Lord, The comings of Christ, The Returning's of Jesus, The Advents, The Descending's of our Lord, ever heard of them?
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I disagree that "Israel" is what we [Gentiles] are "grafted into".
I believe "the olive tree" represents "God's governmental ways upon the earth" [the contrast is between "Israel" and "the Gentiles"]. Both Calvinism and Arminianism get this incorrect: Calvinism, by changing the context part way through the section; Arminianism, by making the entire section about individual salvation, thus having saints "lose their salvation".
Do you, too, believe we can "lose salvation" (based on this context)? I don't. (As this is not its context).
I believe "the olive tree" represents "God's governmental ways upon the earth" [the contrast is between "Israel" and "the Gentiles"]. Both Calvinism and Arminianism get this incorrect: Calvinism, by changing the context part way through the section; Arminianism, by making the entire section about individual salvation, thus having saints "lose their salvation".
Do you, too, believe we can "lose salvation" (based on this context)? I don't. (As this is not its context).
End of church age and the jews are left to see the power of God.
Jacobs trouble (the 7 yr gt) is Israel's trouble.
God begins specific dealings with his elect,the jews.
The rapture is the gathering of the bride to heaven fortold by Jesus at the last supper.
Last days are bride /groom and israel centered.
Not tribulation,wrath centered.
Jacobs trouble (the 7 yr gt) is Israel's trouble.
God begins specific dealings with his elect,the jews.
The rapture is the gathering of the bride to heaven fortold by Jesus at the last supper.
Last days are bride /groom and israel centered.
Not tribulation,wrath centered.
Read 1Thess5:9-10 (comparing the words of v.10 with verse 6 of that passage), where it says (to "the Church which is His body"):
"9 because God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation [an eschatological 'salvation,' per the overall context of Thess] through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 the One having died for us, so that whether we might watch [G1127 -same word as in v.6!] or we might sleep G2518 - same word as in v.6! (not speaking of DEATH here, as the prev chpt was, with a DIFF word!]), we may live together with [G4862 - UNIONED-with/INDENTIFIED-with] Him."
[this is distinct from what is said regarding "the 10 Virgins," for example, which "with [G3326 - accompanying]" word is not speaking of the same thing (as the above), where they will enter the earthly MK age/wedding FEAST/SUPPER (not "the MARRIAGE" itself--He is not MARRYING 10 Virgins, nor even FIVE!)--He will be "RETURNING" at that point as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom! (Rev19:7 aorist) for the Rev19:9 earthly wedding FEAST/SUPPER (the MK age); Lk12:36-37,38,40]
"9 because God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation [an eschatological 'salvation,' per the overall context of Thess] through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 the One having died for us, so that whether we might watch [G1127 -same word as in v.6!] or we might sleep G2518 - same word as in v.6! (not speaking of DEATH here, as the prev chpt was, with a DIFF word!]), we may live together with [G4862 - UNIONED-with/INDENTIFIED-with] Him."
[this is distinct from what is said regarding "the 10 Virgins," for example, which "with [G3326 - accompanying]" word is not speaking of the same thing (as the above), where they will enter the earthly MK age/wedding FEAST/SUPPER (not "the MARRIAGE" itself--He is not MARRYING 10 Virgins, nor even FIVE!)--He will be "RETURNING" at that point as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom! (Rev19:7 aorist) for the Rev19:9 earthly wedding FEAST/SUPPER (the MK age); Lk12:36-37,38,40]
EDIT (for correction to my post):
"so that whether we might watch [G1127 -same word as in v.6!] or we might sleep [G2518 - same word as in v.6! (not speaking of DEATH here, as the prev chpt was, with a DIFF word!]), we may live together with [G4862 - UNIONED-with/IDENTIFIED-with] Him."
[THIS is to/for/about "the Church which is His body"--all those saved during "this present age [singular]" (not the same thing as "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" that Jesus spoke about with His 12 disciples, say, in Matt13 re: the WHEAT harvest, and responded to their Q about in Matt24:3 also)]
So, we ["the Church which is His body"] "overcome" by being connected with Christ [i.e. saved, having trusted in Him and His finished work, for salvation], not by our having to experience the specific [future] limited time period which leads UP TO His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom
This is a matter of grasping "who" is saved "when" (at which time)... The Church which is His body" is saved during "this present age [singular]" but others come to faith WITHIN the trib years (AFTER our Rapture), and they enter the MK age (in mortal bodies capable of reproducing)
"so that whether we might watch [G1127 -same word as in v.6!] or we might sleep [G2518 - same word as in v.6! (not speaking of DEATH here, as the prev chpt was, with a DIFF word!]), we may live together with [G4862 - UNIONED-with/IDENTIFIED-with] Him."
[THIS is to/for/about "the Church which is His body"--all those saved during "this present age [singular]" (not the same thing as "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" that Jesus spoke about with His 12 disciples, say, in Matt13 re: the WHEAT harvest, and responded to their Q about in Matt24:3 also)]
So, we ["the Church which is His body"] "overcome" by being connected with Christ [i.e. saved, having trusted in Him and His finished work, for salvation], not by our having to experience the specific [future] limited time period which leads UP TO His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom
This is a matter of grasping "who" is saved "when" (at which time)... The Church which is His body" is saved during "this present age [singular]" but others come to faith WITHIN the trib years (AFTER our Rapture), and they enter the MK age (in mortal bodies capable of reproducing)
Here's a post I made awhile back, on the subject of "the olive tree":
[quoting my previous posts]
I'm looking for a different quote by George V Wigram... but (in the meantime) in its place, I'll just post this brief portion also by him (note the phrase "God's governmental ways on earth," which is what I believe Roman's 11's "olive tree" represents):
[quoting]
"Gen. 27:29 [Isaac blessing Jacob]. Let peoples (gamnzim, pl.), serve thee and [manners or sorts of ] nations (l'ummim, pl.) bow down to thee: be lord [a mighty man] over thy brethren.
"Observe, this would not run the source of the division of people back to Shem, Ham and Japhet, so as to make the word to be equivalent to what we call the races of people, in connection with the Noahic earth, who constitute the whole human family. The subdivision here alluded to took place in the family of Isaac, type of the heir of promise, not earlier; and the heads of this subdivision are brought before us in Rom. 9 All God's ways and subdivisions are to be noted."
[also]
"f Israel is the goh'y of experience, promise, blessing on the earth; the center of all God's governmental ways on earth; but in saying that, I look at them from outside and as one whole. When they are owned as gammi, my people, their detailed state and associations within is the aspect in which they are considered."
--George V Wigram
http://bibletruthpublishers.com/heb...t-testimony-psalms-article/g-v-wigram/la61041
____________
[quoting that other article]
"[re: Romans 11] In Jesus Christ, if the question be about Christian position, eternal life, or the Church considered in her essential relationship to Christ, there was neither Jew nor Gentile; the thoughts found in this chapter [Romans 11] can THERE have no place. If the question be about the cutting off of an individual for sinful conduct, little matters it whether he be Jew or Gentile; that has nothing to do with it, and on the other hand, there would be no question about grafting in again of the Jews more than of any others, and neither Jews nor others could be grafted in, if God had cut them off in such a manner. And if it were a question about a warning from the Apostle to Christians at Rome, and so to others elsewhere, as being brethren, it would be almost nonsense to say, " And thou, O Gentile, take heed!" Why, thou, O Gentile? Had not Christians, Jews by birth, as much need to take heed? Or could the Spirit of God, in such a warning, have made the distinction, and thus denied the principle of, the Church of God in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile? If the question is about a divine administration upon earth, then God can well make the distinction and develop his ways towards the one and the other; and it is plain that from the commencement of the ninth chapter the Apostle is occupied with and pointedly contrasts the Jews and the Gentiles, presenting us with the administration of the divine ways upon the earth. First declaring his attachment to Israel, he points out an election in the election for the earth, and further, that if God according to his sovereignty had chosen Israel (and such was Israel's boast), He had not renounced His sovereignty; and consequently, He could call the Gentiles if he would. Then he recalls to mind that the prophets had shown that a little remnant only, of Israel, at such an epoch, would be saved, and that a stone of stumbling would be laid in Zion."
-- Thoughts on Romans 11 and the Responsibility of the Church, Present Testimony: Volume 4, George V. Wigram
http://bibletruthpublishers.com/tho...the-church/present-testimony-volume-4/la85282
[end quoting; bold and underline mine]
[end quoting those previous posts]
[quoting my previous posts]
I'm looking for a different quote by George V Wigram... but (in the meantime) in its place, I'll just post this brief portion also by him (note the phrase "God's governmental ways on earth," which is what I believe Roman's 11's "olive tree" represents):
[quoting]
"Gen. 27:29 [Isaac blessing Jacob]. Let peoples (gamnzim, pl.), serve thee and [manners or sorts of ] nations (l'ummim, pl.) bow down to thee: be lord [a mighty man] over thy brethren.
"Observe, this would not run the source of the division of people back to Shem, Ham and Japhet, so as to make the word to be equivalent to what we call the races of people, in connection with the Noahic earth, who constitute the whole human family. The subdivision here alluded to took place in the family of Isaac, type of the heir of promise, not earlier; and the heads of this subdivision are brought before us in Rom. 9 All God's ways and subdivisions are to be noted."
[also]
"f Israel is the goh'y of experience, promise, blessing on the earth; the center of all God's governmental ways on earth; but in saying that, I look at them from outside and as one whole. When they are owned as gammi, my people, their detailed state and associations within is the aspect in which they are considered."
--George V Wigram
http://bibletruthpublishers.com/heb...t-testimony-psalms-article/g-v-wigram/la61041
____________
[quoting that other article]
"[re: Romans 11] In Jesus Christ, if the question be about Christian position, eternal life, or the Church considered in her essential relationship to Christ, there was neither Jew nor Gentile; the thoughts found in this chapter [Romans 11] can THERE have no place. If the question be about the cutting off of an individual for sinful conduct, little matters it whether he be Jew or Gentile; that has nothing to do with it, and on the other hand, there would be no question about grafting in again of the Jews more than of any others, and neither Jews nor others could be grafted in, if God had cut them off in such a manner. And if it were a question about a warning from the Apostle to Christians at Rome, and so to others elsewhere, as being brethren, it would be almost nonsense to say, " And thou, O Gentile, take heed!" Why, thou, O Gentile? Had not Christians, Jews by birth, as much need to take heed? Or could the Spirit of God, in such a warning, have made the distinction, and thus denied the principle of, the Church of God in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile? If the question is about a divine administration upon earth, then God can well make the distinction and develop his ways towards the one and the other; and it is plain that from the commencement of the ninth chapter the Apostle is occupied with and pointedly contrasts the Jews and the Gentiles, presenting us with the administration of the divine ways upon the earth. First declaring his attachment to Israel, he points out an election in the election for the earth, and further, that if God according to his sovereignty had chosen Israel (and such was Israel's boast), He had not renounced His sovereignty; and consequently, He could call the Gentiles if he would. Then he recalls to mind that the prophets had shown that a little remnant only, of Israel, at such an epoch, would be saved, and that a stone of stumbling would be laid in Zion."
-- Thoughts on Romans 11 and the Responsibility of the Church, Present Testimony: Volume 4, George V. Wigram
http://bibletruthpublishers.com/tho...the-church/present-testimony-volume-4/la85282
[end quoting; bold and underline mine]
[end quoting those previous posts]
Acts 3:21 - "whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." [i.e. to fulfill all of the OT prophecies spoken via the OT prophets; and distinct from what was "hidden in God" and which was [before His death/resurrection/exaltation] as yet undisclosed, the things given via the NT "apostles and prophets" and esp. concerning "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" with Him as "HEAD" (Eph1:20-23 when)]
People (AFTER our Rapture) will believe/embrace one of two things (DURING that time period, the 7-yr trib): 2Th2:10-12 ("the false/the pseudei") or the truth (2Th1:10b) of what has just taken place and what that all means (for them)...
People (AFTER our Rapture) will believe/embrace one of two things (DURING that time period, the 7-yr trib): 2Th2:10-12 ("the false/the pseudei") or the truth (2Th1:10b) of what has just taken place and what that all means (for them)...
Except, that's not what this context informs us will happen... some will believe "the false/the 'pseudei'" instead ("because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved") : https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-11.htm . To them, our "Rapture/Departure/Disappearance" won't be "proof" that what we'd said (and scripture says) has taken place, but in their minds "proof" that this "error/LIE/falsehood/delusion/'pseudei'" is what is true INSTEAD (to their way of seeing it). This, as I understand it, will apply to those who've already hardened their minds to the "truth" (b/f our Rapture even takes place), thus this will be what THEY [these specific ones] embrace as true (once our "Rapture/Departure" takes place). [not everyone, 100% of those left--many will come to faith within the trib yrs]
I think one reason why you don't like the idea of a pre-trib rapture is because you perceive it this way, that He [will be/would be] "taking us out of the game"... I don't see it that way at all. Why do you think the 24 elders are sitting on "THRONES"? [and the other things they are shown to do, in Rev], and that we are told "we shall JUDGE ANGELS" 1Cor6:3[14]? [did you just inwardly think, 'oh, ho hum!'?] I don't believe a pre-trib rapture is a DEmotion, of sorts, but rather a stepping up of the game (and our part in it), so to speak. Just the opposite of what you're thinking.
1 Timothy 6:15 is one of only TWO times in all of the epistles that mentions the word "King" (and both are FUTURE tense), and says, "15 which He will display [openly manifest] in the own seasons, blessed and alone Sovereign, the King of those being kings, and the Lord of those being lords"
[see also Rev19:16]
See Rev5:9-10 re: the 24 elders
[see also Rev19:16]
See Rev5:9-10 re: the 24 elders
Message from "Understanding the Day of the Lord, Part 1" http://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/81-29
Message from "Understanding the Day of the Lord, Part 2" http://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/81-30
Message from "Understanding the Day of the Lord, Part 3" http://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/81-31
Message from "Understanding the Day of the Lord, Part 2" http://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/81-30
Message from "Understanding the Day of the Lord, Part 3" http://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/81-31
Nope. There will be false preachers and false prophets who will decieve per Matt 24....
Behind that is their hatred of Christ's Lordship. They will be blasted by tribulation judgments over and over and yet find excuses or ignore the desperate need for true repentance. Also it will cost them their lives.
Message from "Understanding the Day of the Lord, Part 2" http://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/81-30
Behind that is their hatred of Christ's Lordship. They will be blasted by tribulation judgments over and over and yet find excuses or ignore the desperate need for true repentance. Also it will cost them their lives.
Message from "Understanding the Day of the Lord, Part 2" http://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/81-30