Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
BillG

BillG

Senior Member
#101,781
Feb 15, 2017
9,020
4,439
113
#101,781
Macabeus said:
The text was originally written in Greek, as you know, and in Greek the present tense verb sin has a linear aspect that can be represented by a straight, unbroken line, meaning continual practice of sin (continuous present) and is progressive. Do you continually practice sin, or do you walk in obedience, but imperfectly, your walk at times broken by temporary lapses, whether short or long. The one who sins continuously is not lapsing, they are in a constant state of rebellion, even moral sinners, because their unbelief is also sin

The verb sin in the text is a present tense verb in the Greek and is linear, indicating a continual state of lawlessness, see verses 4-5. The Chrstian sins, 1 John 2:1, but John does not use the present tense form for sin in that text, he uses an aorist tense verb, which is not a linear verb (continually and progressive) but is rather a punctilious verb, which means it is action seen as a point in time, scan be represented by a dot and not a line, not continual, but temporary lapses

Now a temporary lapse can even be long. But it is temporary. A continual sin is not temporary, but permanent

John is talking about people who confess God with their mouth, but wholly and continually without ceasing deny Him in their actions

We perhaps have denied God in the past with our actions, but like Peter, we are grieved by it, and like Peter, when we turn again, we may strengthen our brethren

Sorry for the long post. I wanted to give as comprehensive answer as I could
Click to expand...
What is the continual practice of sin?

Given my experience is why I ask.

As you know a severe gambling problem?
So if gambling is a sin then I have a problem with my salvation?
I hated it with a passion.
In fact and this is true.
I found myself gambling in the bookies playing the slots and didn't know I was.
Say at my desk at work and then seemed to come to reality when I walked out having lost 1,000s and won 1,000s.
Either way I was not happy.

I even poured oil over the doorframes and asked for angels to protect me.

Is that the continual sin per the verses quoted?
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#101,782
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#101,782
BillG said:
What is the continual practice of sin?

Given my experience is why I ask.

As you know a severe gambling problem?
So if gambling is a sin then I have a problem with my salvation?
I hated it with a passion.
In fact and this is true.
I found myself gambling in the bookies playing the slots and didn't know I was.
Say at my desk at work and then seemed to come to reality when I walked out having lost 1,000s and won 1,000s.
Either way I was not happy.

I even poured oil over the doorframes and asked for angels to protect me.

Is that the continual sin per the verses quoted?
Click to expand...
I anticipated this question...

Continual sin is not being overtaken in a fault in which you need the Grace of God and prayer and accountability of other believers to overcome. It is a state of PERSISTENCE, ie firm and obstinate continuance in a course of action.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#101,783
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
#101,783
UnderGrace said:
I have just noticed that people really cannot tolerate the plan of salvation....they always state yes there are no works involved, but then they stipulate the saved person will work and persevere.

What they cannot see is they make it a condition of salvation...if they truly believe the Gospel message they would more accurately state the believer is called/exhorted/led to walk the Spirit, in the newness of life and thereby do the works God has set before them.

HOWEVER............one can grieve the Spirit and one can work against their relationship with God because we still have our flesh, people need a lot of support and truth to have a worthy walk, and @eternally-gratefull mentioned it a post way back, lordship salvation is a grace killer and people do become the prodigal sons because of it.
Click to expand...
Oh I know.....the scripture I have quoted all day is clear.........Those that don't work, but have faith in the one that justifies the ungodly....HIS FAITH IS COUNTED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS........

That is as clear as it comes........

SAVED is past tense
Justified is past tense
Sanctified positionally is past tense

AND ALL are given and applied by FAITH through GRACE and in accordance with MERCY that ENDURES forever........

When I see the BLOOD, I WILL PASS OVER YOU <---and judgment is indicated as evidenced by the death of every living firstborn of both man and beast!!
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#101,784
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
#101,784
BillG said:
One of my favourite verses.

God will restore the years that the locusts have eaten.
What a promise.

Let us all encourage others not to focus on the past, let God deal with it.
Our past does not need to dictate our future (Romans again) but allowing God to deal and heal it then it will set the path for our future and him using us will help others.
Click to expand...
WISE words Bill..........we are hard headed hey
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#101,785
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#101,785
dcontroversal said:
Oh I know.....the scripture I have quoted all day is clear.........Those that don't work, but have faith in the one that justifies the ungodly....HIS FAITH IS COUNTED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS........

That is as clear as it comes........

SAVED is past tense
Justified is past tense
Sanctified positionally is past tense

AND ALL are given and applied by FAITH through GRACE and in accordance with MERCY that ENDURES forever........

When I see the BLOOD, I WILL PASS OVER YOU <---and judgment is indicated as evidenced by the death of every living firstborn of both man and beast!!
Click to expand...
I thought salvation was PERFECT TENSE. Past completed action with continuing results. In Ephesians 2:8, is the verb "Saved" past tense or perfect tense? See that's the difference in theology. For some, salvation is a one time event in the past. For me, it is an event in the past with continuing results. Cheers

PS. it is also present tense in 1 Corinthians 15:2
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#101,786
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
#101,786
Macabeus said:
Yes, a man who believes apart from works is saved. Works follow salvation, as I have said at least a half dozen times today
Click to expand...
You just contradicted yourself and did not answer.........

YES the man is saved regardless of doing any works <-----that is an answer......the above reeks of deception and shows you cannot answer the question.......

Which is it....saved without ANY WORKS or SAVED but must have works........simple question....we are all waiting in suspense.......

See if you can come clean about what you really believe.....SAVED = must have faith and WORKS..........you stated as much above
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#101,787
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#101,787
dcontroversal said:
You just contradicted yourself and did not answer.........

YES the man is saved regardless of doing any works <-----that is an answer......the above reeks of deception and shows you cannot answer the question.......

Which is it....saved without ANY WORKS or SAVED but must have works........simple question....we are all waiting in suspense.......

See if you can come clean about what you really believe.....SAVED = must have faith and WORKS..........you stated as much above
Click to expand...
Where do you see "regardless" in my post? Are you sure that you're not the one who embellishes?

I will answer it more clearly for you. A man is saved by grace apart from ANY works. Works follow salvation.
 
G

gb9

Senior Member
#101,788
Jan 18, 2011
12,284
6,656
113
#101,788
Macabeus said:
Where do you see "regardless" in my post? Are you sure that you're not the one who embellishes?

I will answer it more clearly for you. A man is saved by grace apart from ANY works. Works follow salvation.
Click to expand...

works and salvation do not belong in the same sentence. one has nothing to do with the other. you should stop pushing this lie.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#101,789
Nov 20, 2018
22,752
8,262
113
#101,789
dcontroversal said:
Oh I know.....the scripture I have quoted all day is clear.........Those that don't work, but have faith in the one that justifies the ungodly....HIS FAITH IS COUNTED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS........

That is as clear as it comes........

SAVED is past tense
Justified is past tense
Sanctified positionally is past tense

AND ALL are given and applied by FAITH through GRACE and in accordance with MERCY that ENDURES forever........

When I see the BLOOD, I WILL PASS OVER YOU <---and judgment is indicated as evidenced by the death of every living firstborn of both man and beast!!
Click to expand...
Truly it must be said that everyone without exception was saved BEFORE any works of any kind.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#101,791
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#101,791
dcontroversal said:
Oh I know.....the scripture I have quoted all day is clear.........Those that don't work, but have faith in the one that justifies the ungodly....HIS FAITH IS COUNTED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS........

That is as clear as it comes........

SAVED is past tense
Justified is past tense
Sanctified positionally is past tense

AND ALL are given and applied by FAITH through GRACE and in accordance with MERCY that ENDURES forever........

When I see the BLOOD, I WILL PASS OVER YOU <---and judgment is indicated as evidenced by the death of every living firstborn of both man and beast!!
Click to expand...
Saved in Ephesians 2:8 is a perfect passive participle.

Saved in Ephesians 2:5 is a perfect passive participle.

Saved is present passive in 1 Corinthians 15:2
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#101,792
Nov 20, 2018
22,752
8,262
113
#101,792
Macabeus said:
Does the one who is justified have to be idle for 50 years to stay justified?

Or did Christ die for us to redeem us as a people zealous of Good works

And do those who are of the Spirit mind the things of the Spirit and ignore the things of the Spirit at the same time.
Click to expand...
I doubt that any person in redemptive history did no works for 50 years post Salvation.
 
BillG

BillG

Senior Member
#101,795
Feb 15, 2017
9,020
4,439
113
#101,795
Macabeus said:
I anticipated this question...

Continual sin is not being overtaken in a fault in which you need the Grace of God and prayer and accountability of other believers to overcome. It is a state of PERSISTENCE, ie firm and obstinate continuance in a course of action.
Click to expand...
Obstinance being what?
Obstinance to what?
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#101,796
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#101,796
BillG said:
Obstinance being what?
Obstinance to what?
Click to expand...
Obstinance in sin. Ever met anyone who claims to be a Christian, but is obstinate in sin. Perhaps that is what John is talking about.

The Greek present tense is a linear tense, and can have the aspect of continual persistence in something.
 
BillG

BillG

Senior Member
#101,797
Feb 15, 2017
9,020
4,439
113
#101,797
Macabeus said:
Obstinance in sin. Ever met anyone who claims to be a Christian, but is obstinate in sin. Perhaps that is what John is talking about.

The Greek present tense is a linear tense, and can have the aspect of continual persistence in something.
Click to expand...
Sin is sin and always obstinate.
For me the obstinate is using grace as a license to sin, aka I can sin all I want and still be saved.
 
BillG

BillG

Senior Member
#101,798
Feb 15, 2017
9,020
4,439
113
#101,798
Night night all.

Is off to bed.

God bless you all.
As you wake up God bless your day.
As you sleep know that God is watching over you.

Never forget that God loves you as much as he loves Jesus.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#101,800
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#101,800
BillG said:
Sin is sin and always obstinate.
For me the obstinate is using grace as a license to sin, aka I can sin all I want and still be saved.
Click to expand...
Yep,that’s who John is talking about the rest of the book makes this clear
 
You must log in or register to reply here.