Jesus is Jehovah? So Jehovah is Son in trinity?

[Repentandbaptize]

Whether a person believes in one God with no distinction of persons, or a trinity, Jesus is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

So that means Jehovah is Jesus whether Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

You can draw your own conclusion, but I believe that there is one God with no distinction of persons, and Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are not 3 persons in a trinity, but the 3 relationships God has with His people designated by titles.

Father- parent of the saints.

Son- God's visible relationship to the saints.

Holy Spirit- God's invisible relationship to the saints.

One God who is a Holy Spirit, and Father is a title for God, and the Son is the man Christ Jesus.

In the Old Testament the Father said that He would reveal a new name to the Jews, and speak to them, which the Jews already knew the name Jehovah.

The prophet Agur asked, what is His name, the Father, and what is His Son's name, if you can tell, which means both Father and Son would share the same name.

Jesus said He came in His Father's name, manifested His Father's name, and declared His Father's name.

The Bible says that the Son inherited the name from the Father, which means the Father's name is Jesus, and the Son inherited that name from the Father.

Since Jesus is God manifest in the flesh it is the name of both the Father, and Son, the man Christ Jesus.

Which the Bible says that the Son was made of the seed of David, according to the flesh, and when the fulness of the time was come God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law.

The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.

Jesus is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and Jesus created all things, came in flesh, and dwells in the saints.

The Bible never says God the Son, but Son of God, and Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, so if there is a trinity why was Jesus conceived by the Holy Spirit, the 3rd person, and not God the Son.

God said, is there a God beside Me, yea there is no God, I know not any.

And there was no God formed before Me, and there shall be no God formed after Me, I, even I, am the LORD, and beside Me there is no Savior.

Which hear O' Israel, the LORD our God is one LORD.

In the New Testament it states, that to those that know the truth there is but one God, the Father.

And in another place, one God, and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Which the Bible only attributes the Father as God, so if there is a trinity why does the Bible say that.

In the Old Testament the Son shall be called the everlasting Father, which Jesus taught us we only have one Father to those that say He is an adopted Father.

The Father said in that He would reveal a new name to the saints, and speak to them.

Jesus told Philip that if he has seen Him then he has seen the Father, and the words that He speaks are not His own, but the Father that dwells in Him, He does the works, and speaks to them.

Jesus told the disciples that when He ascends to heaven to not ask Him anything, but only ask the Father.

But in another passage of scripture Jesus said when He resurrects to heaven to ask Him, and He will do it.

Jesus is God and man, and can speak either as God, or man, and when on earth the saints dealt with the man Christ Jesus as the way to the Father, but when Jesus resurrects to heaven they can go directly to Jesus as God.

I do not believe there is a trinity, but like the Bible says one God, the Father, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

How do they escape the truth, by the denomination that they go to that says there is a trinity, because they do not understand.

The Bible plainly states that there is one God, so they cannot escape that, but they say there is 3 persons in one God.

But then that would mean it takes all 3 persons to make one God.

But then they say God the Father, God the Son, and God the Father, saying there is 3 Gods.

So is it 3 persons in one God, or 3 Gods.

But falsehood will have it's contradictions.

1. Jesus is at the right hand of God.

God's right hand represents wisdom, power, and salvation.

Jesus said all power is given to Me in heaven and earth.

There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, which only a sinless man can reconcile the world unto God, but no person is sinless so God manifest Himself in flesh, and reconciled the world unto Himself in the person of Jesus Christ, God and man in harmony.

There is one throne in heaven, and one who sits on that throne, which is the throne of God and the Lamb, God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

David said, the LORD said unto My Lord, sit at My right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.

For the Son must reign until His enemies are conquered, and when they are conquered, and the saints are with the Son, then the Son shall submit to God, even the Father, that God may be all in all.

God exalted the man Christ Jesus to exercise the throne of power, be at His right hand, until His enemies are conquered, and the saints are with Him, then the Son shall stop exercising the throne of power, stop being at the right hand of God that God may be all in all.

Jesus does not sit next to the Father in heaven, but Jesus is the only visible manifestation of God we will see, which if you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father.

2. Let us make man in our image.

Old Testament Adam made in the image of God.

In the New Testament Adam made in the figure, image, of Him to come, who is Jesus.

The image of God is the image of Christ.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, and without Him was not anything created that was created.

In the beginning was the plan of God to come in the future in flesh, and that plan was with God before He started creation, and that plan was God manifest in flesh.

God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened, for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning.

Which the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, although it did not happen until 4000 years later.

Which Jesus is the beginning of creation, and the firstborn among many creatures.

Which God had the plan to come in flesh in the future, before He created Adam and Eve, and created them in the image that He would show up in the future, and that is an innocent nature in flesh.

Since the image of God is the image of Christ, then let us make man in our image has to include the man Christ Jesus for He is part of that image.

So it is not a trinity, but God the Father, and the Son, the man Christ Jesus, a prophetic statement to the coming Son of God.

It throws some people off how Jesus can be God in a visible manifestation when God is an omnipresent Spirit.

But God manifest in the flesh means that God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus, for He is the fulness of the Godhead bodily, and He has the Spirit without measure, and it pleased the Father that in Him all fulness should dwell.

And the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God, for God cannot be separated.

Which the man Christ Jesus does not have His own personal Spirit that moves around with Him, for there cannot be a double portion of the Spirit in one place, and an empty space where the Spirit is not at, and the Spirit does not have to move for the Spirit is already there.

But Jesus moves through the Spirit, and wherever He is at the Spirit is there, so it helps people to understand how Jesus can be an omnipresent Spirit, but be God manifest in the flesh.

Which the man Christ Jesus is the personal human body of God, which He laid down His life, and purchased the Church with His own blood.

The Bible says that Jesus is the only Ruler, who is Lord of lords, and King of kings, and dwells in the light which no person can approach unto, and no person has seen Jesus, and no person will ever see Jesus, for He is the invisible God who showed a visible image of Himself.

They can say there is a trinity, but to those that know the truth there is but one God, the Father.

When the Protestant movement protested they did not protest enough.

 

[Repentandbaptize]

There is One God the Father and He sent his Son Jesus to be our Master, the Holy Spirit is a force

 

[cgneustar]

they have a very accurate measurement of time, thats why the lionshare of them are all in agreement, they are also in agreement with the ancient people themselves. the only thing out of agreement is this flood that took place right in their backyard and no one seemed to notice enough say anything about it. many of these ancient people have flood stories in their traditions and they put it at 10-10500 BC, these cultures are on different sides of the world and they didnt communicate with each other yet they all place the flood in the same time frame. just a coincidence i guess.
another problem we get into with this can of worms is when you start changing the timeline of these cultures you have to shift around many other ancient cultures being as we know which lived together and which did not, after all this shifting around you going to end up with Solomon and Jesus being contemporaries. sorry but there is just no way to make it work. you keep proclaiming no one wants to see the truth, you dont seem to be very interested in truth at all, you have a mountain of evidence right in front of you and refuse to acknowledge that its there.
another thing about this that baffles me, why is the age of earth/mankind such a huge big deal that your willing to go so far out into left field? now if someone said Jesus was just a fairytale, that would be a big deal, but the idea that mankind existed 10k BC rather than 5kBC, whats the difference? does it undue everything that Jesus taught? i just dont get it.

Knowing the age of the earth is important because there is a 7,000 year timeline appointed for this existence of this earth, which is why God created in 6 days and set apart the 7th day.

 

[bluto]

Whether a person believes in one God with no distinction of persons, or a trinity, Jesus is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

So that means Jehovah is Jesus whether Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

You can draw your own conclusion, but I believe that there is one God with no distinction of persons, and Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are not 3 persons in a trinity, but the 3 relationships God has with His people designated by titles.

Father- parent of the saints.

Son- God's visible relationship to the saints.

Holy Spirit- God's invisible relationship to the saints.

One God who is a Holy Spirit, and Father is a title for God, and the Son is the man Christ Jesus.

In the Old Testament the Father said that He would reveal a new name to the Jews, and speak to them, which the Jews already knew the name Jehovah.

The prophet Agur asked, what is His name, the Father, and what is His Son's name, if you can tell, which means both Father and Son would share the same name.

Jesus said He came in His Father's name, manifested His Father's name, and declared His Father's name.

The Bible says that the Son inherited the name from the Father, which means the Father's name is Jesus, and the Son inherited that name from the Father.

Since Jesus is God manifest in the flesh it is the name of both the Father, and Son, the man Christ Jesus.

Which the Bible says that the Son was made of the seed of David, according to the flesh, and when the fulness of the time was come God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law.

The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.

Jesus is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and Jesus created all things, came in flesh, and dwells in the saints.

The Bible never says God the Son, but Son of God, and Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, so if there is a trinity why was Jesus conceived by the Holy Spirit, the 3rd person, and not God the Son.

God said, is there a God beside Me, yea there is no God, I know not any.

And there was no God formed before Me, and there shall be no God formed after Me, I, even I, am the LORD, and beside Me there is no Savior.

Which hear O' Israel, the LORD our God is one LORD.

In the New Testament it states, that to those that know the truth there is but one God, the Father.

And in another place, one God, and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Which the Bible only attributes the Father as God, so if there is a trinity why does the Bible say that.

In the Old Testament the Son shall be called the everlasting Father, which Jesus taught us we only have one Father to those that say He is an adopted Father.

The Father said in that He would reveal a new name to the saints, and speak to them.

Jesus told Philip that if he has seen Him then he has seen the Father, and the words that He speaks are not His own, but the Father that dwells in Him, He does the works, and speaks to them.

Jesus told the disciples that when He ascends to heaven to not ask Him anything, but only ask the Father.

But in another passage of scripture Jesus said when He resurrects to heaven to ask Him, and He will do it.

Jesus is God and man, and can speak either as God, or man, and when on earth the saints dealt with the man Christ Jesus as the way to the Father, but when Jesus resurrects to heaven they can go directly to Jesus as God.

I do not believe there is a trinity, but like the Bible says one God, the Father, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

How do they escape the truth, by the denomination that they go to that says there is a trinity, because they do not understand.

The Bible plainly states that there is one God, so they cannot escape that, but they say there is 3 persons in one God.

But then that would mean it takes all 3 persons to make one God.

But then they say God the Father, God the Son, and God the Father, saying there is 3 Gods.

So is it 3 persons in one God, or 3 Gods.

But falsehood will have it's contradictions.

1. Jesus is at the right hand of God.

God's right hand represents wisdom, power, and salvation.

Jesus said all power is given to Me in heaven and earth.

There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, which only a sinless man can reconcile the world unto God, but no person is sinless so God manifest Himself in flesh, and reconciled the world unto Himself in the person of Jesus Christ, God and man in harmony.

There is one throne in heaven, and one who sits on that throne, which is the throne of God and the Lamb, God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

David said, the LORD said unto My Lord, sit at My right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.

For the Son must reign until His enemies are conquered, and when they are conquered, and the saints are with the Son, then the Son shall submit to God, even the Father, that God may be all in all.

God exalted the man Christ Jesus to exercise the throne of power, be at His right hand, until His enemies are conquered, and the saints are with Him, then the Son shall stop exercising the throne of power, stop being at the right hand of God that God may be all in all.

Jesus does not sit next to the Father in heaven, but Jesus is the only visible manifestation of God we will see, which if you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father.

2. Let us make man in our image.

Old Testament Adam made in the image of God.

In the New Testament Adam made in the figure, image, of Him to come, who is Jesus.

The image of God is the image of Christ.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, and without Him was not anything created that was created.

In the beginning was the plan of God to come in the future in flesh, and that plan was with God before He started creation, and that plan was God manifest in flesh.

God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened, for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning.

Which the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, although it did not happen until 4000 years later.

Which Jesus is the beginning of creation, and the firstborn among many creatures.

Which God had the plan to come in flesh in the future, before He created Adam and Eve, and created them in the image that He would show up in the future, and that is an innocent nature in flesh.

Since the image of God is the image of Christ, then let us make man in our image has to include the man Christ Jesus for He is part of that image.

So it is not a trinity, but God the Father, and the Son, the man Christ Jesus, a prophetic statement to the coming Son of God.

It throws some people off how Jesus can be God in a visible manifestation when God is an omnipresent Spirit.

But God manifest in the flesh means that God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus, for He is the fulness of the Godhead bodily, and He has the Spirit without measure, and it pleased the Father that in Him all fulness should dwell.

And the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God, for God cannot be separated.

Which the man Christ Jesus does not have His own personal Spirit that moves around with Him, for there cannot be a double portion of the Spirit in one place, and an empty space where the Spirit is not at, and the Spirit does not have to move for the Spirit is already there.

But Jesus moves through the Spirit, and wherever He is at the Spirit is there, so it helps people to understand how Jesus can be an omnipresent Spirit, but be God manifest in the flesh.

Which the man Christ Jesus is the personal human body of God, which He laid down His life, and purchased the Church with His own blood.

The Bible says that Jesus is the only Ruler, who is Lord of lords, and King of kings, and dwells in the light which no person can approach unto, and no person has seen Jesus, and no person will ever see Jesus, for He is the invisible God who showed a visible image of Himself.

They can say there is a trinity, but to those that know the truth there is but one God, the Father.

When the Protestant movement protested they did not protest enough.

Yep, your a oneness pentecostal alright, a "modlist." That was easy to figure out just be reading the very first sentence. Or to put it another way from a well known "modalist" I happen to know. "Jesus is the Word, the God, the flesh, the Spirit, the man, the Father, the Son, the Alpha & Omega, the Lord God Almighty, HE IS ALL OF THEM."

Really! This also means that you don't believe Jesus Christ existed before His incarnation as a man. So here's the question for you? Why is Jesus Christ clearly identified as the Agent of creation at John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:10 and at Revelation 3:14 by the Apostles and by His own Father? Remember, you also said this: "They can say there is a trinity, but to those that know the truth there is but one God, the Father."

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[jaybird88]

Knowing the age of the earth is important because there is a 7,000 year timeline appointed for this existence of this earth, which is why God created in 6 days and set apart the 7th day.

Ok so can you explain how the age of the earth effect the teaching of Jesus,ten commandments, etc.

 

[jaybird88]

Knowing the age of the earth is important because there is a 7,000 year timeline appointed for this existence of this earth, which is why God created in 6 days and set apart the 7th day.

Edit - if it was important they would have gave us a start date in the Bible, and they didn't.

 

[Tinkerbell725]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is One God the Father and He sent his Son Jesus to be our Master, the Holy Spirit is a force

A force?

 

[NWL]

And btw, Jesus is the wisdom of God which means Jesus Christ (as I have stated) existed eternally unless you can tell us all here when was it that God was not without His wisdom? You have not addressed or pointed out one thing wrong in any of my post to you, why? I posted about Revelation 3:14 where the word "Beginning" is the Greek word "arche" and we get our English word "architect" from that word which means Jesus Christ is the architect/orgin/designer of everything created.

Proverbs 8:22 speaks about Jesus as Gods wisdom in a personified manner, that isn't to say Gods literal attribute of wisdom was created upon the belief of some that Jehovah created/produced Wisdom(Jesus) according to Prov 8:22. God was without his wisdom in a sense that he had not demonstrated his wisdom until he displayed an action of the wisdom that he had. For example, the day prior to Aug 16th 2008 Usain bolt was NOT the worlds fastest man despite the fact that he was since he had the power/potential to be the worlds fastest man. On Aug 16th 2008 Usain bolt demonstrated he was the worlds fastest man despite the fact he already was, there simply was no demonstration that he was. Likewise, Jehovah had wisdom prior to the production of his wisdom, and this is the very reason why the verse is saying what its saying, Jesus was God first action... and it was wise, "Jehovah produced me [Wisdom] as the beginning of his way". The question you need to answer is if this verse isn't speaking about Jesus in a personified way then how is it possible that God produced/created his own attributal wisdom?

You are right and wrong with your understanding of the greek word "arche". You are correct that the modern English word "architect" is derived from the word "arche" but the understanding and usage of the word "arche" in the 1CE did not have this meaning, at least among the new testament writers. Find me a single example in the NT where "arche" means or is used in the sense of "architect" other than the scripture in question. Of the 56 occurrences of the word (including variants) the word does not have the meaning of "architect" a single time, not even a little bit. Moreover scripture is clear of who the architect of creation is, and it certainly does not label Jesus as the architect but rather the Father, as I will show according to scripture so the matter becomes irrefutable:

(Hebrews 1:1, 2) "..God...Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.."

(1 Corinthians 8:6) "..there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live .."

Notice the two above scripture both of them plainly show that the Father created the world through Jesus and that things are from the father through Jesus. If life comes from someone then that person is the source/architect/origin of life, NOT the one through whom that one, namely the Father, uses to create the world through.

Of the twenty three (23) times John (the writer of Revelation 3:14) uses the word arche in all his four (4) NT books he always uses the term to mean "beginning", not once do we see him using the word "arche" to mean anything else other than beginning.

The verse is "NOT" teaching that Jesus is a created being like you teach, the jw's teach and the unitarians teach. How about doing some research for a change instead portraying yourself as some great theologian that people are suppose to listen to because you think you have the truth or all the right answers.

The verse certainly does imply Jesus -as Gods wisdom personified- was created, Prov 8:30 which is only eight (8) verse after the statement of "Jehovah produced me [wisdom] as the beginning of his way" states "then I [wisdom] was beside him [Jehovah] as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time". Wisdom, or Jesus, being called the "master worker" and being beside Jehovah the Father alludes to what I was saying earlier of how Jesus was the one who the Father Jehovah created the world through according to both Hebrews 1:1,2 and 1 Cor 8:6, the verses above.

It would seem that it is YOU who needs to do some digging and truth finding friend.

 

[bluto]

Proverbs 8:22 speaks about Jesus as Gods wisdom in a personified manner, that isn't to say Gods literal attribute of wisdom was created upon the belief of some that Jehovah created/produced Wisdom(Jesus) according to Prov 8:22. God was without his wisdom in a sense that he had not demonstrated his wisdom until he displayed an action of the wisdom that he had. For example, the day prior to Aug 16th 2008 Usain bolt was NOT the worlds fastest man despite the fact that he was since he had the power/potential to be the worlds fastest man. On Aug 16th 2008 Usain bolt demonstrated he was the worlds fastest man despite the fact he already was, there simply was no demonstration that he was. Likewise, Jehovah had wisdom prior to the production of his wisdom, and this is the very reason why the verse is saying what its saying, Jesus was God first action... and it was wise, "Jehovah produced me [Wisdom] as the beginning of his way". The question you need to answer is if this verse isn't speaking about Jesus in a personified way then how is it possible that God produced/created his own attributal wisdom?

You are right and wrong with your understanding of the greek word "arche". You are correct that the modern English word "architect" is derived from the word "arche" but the understanding and usage of the word "arche" in the 1CE did not have this meaning, at least among the new testament writers. Find me a single example in the NT where "arche" means or is used in the sense of "architect" other than the scripture in question. Of the 56 occurrences of the word (including variants) the word does not have the meaning of "architect" a single time, not even a little bit. Moreover scripture is clear of who the architect of creation is, and it certainly does not label Jesus as the architect but rather the Father, as I will show according to scripture so the matter becomes irrefutable:

(Hebrews 1:1, 2) "..God...Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.."

(1 Corinthians 8:6) "..there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live .."

Notice the two above scripture both of them plainly show that the Father created the world through Jesus and that things are from the father through Jesus. If life comes from someone then that person is the source/architect/origin of life, NOT the one through whom that one, namely the Father, uses to create the world through.

Of the twenty three (23) times John (the writer of Revelation 3:14) uses the word arche in all his four (4) NT books he always uses the term to mean "beginning", not once do we see him using the word "arche" to mean anything else other than beginning.



The verse certainly does imply Jesus -as Gods wisdom personified- was created, Prov 8:30 which is only eight (8) verse after the statement of "Jehovah produced me [wisdom] as the beginning of his way" states "then I [wisdom] was beside him [Jehovah] as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time". Wisdom, or Jesus, being called the "master worker" and being beside Jehovah the Father alludes to what I was saying earlier of how Jesus was the one who the Father Jehovah created the world through according to both Hebrews 1:1,2 and 1 Cor 8:6, the verses above.

It would seem that it is YOU who needs to do some digging and truth finding friend.

I'm going to approach what you said in a little different manner then addressing each of your points (which btw I certaintly can do). I was reading some of your past post and I'm going to quote two them. "I believe Jesus was created outside of time but he was still/copied created non the less."

And here's the second quote. "When the bible speaks of Jesus creating all things it does not literally mean all things, for example, did Jesus create the father and HS? They are part of all things are they not? Typically when the bible uses absoulte langauge such as "no other", "only one" and "all things" it leaves out the...When the bible speaks of Jesus creating all things it does not literally mean all things, for example, did Jesus create the father and HS? They are part of all things are they not? Typically when the bible uses absoulte langauge such as "no other", "only one" and "all things" it leaves out the..."

First of all and I'm pretty sure your not aware of what I'm about to say regarding the word "beginning" as it relates to John 1:1 and Genesis 1:1. Both verses start out with the words, "In the beginning." The point of those words from Genesis 1:1 it on WHAT HAPPEND "in the beginning."

The point of those same words from John 1:1 the emphasis is on WHO EXISTED "in the beginning." Or before anything was created including time and space. Who was present with God and is God "BEFORE" God created the heavens and the earth."

So, I would like for you to "reconcile" your two ridiculous statements with (first Isaiah 44:24) "Thus says the Lord your Redemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I. the Lord am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE."

With (or second John 1:3, "ALL things came into being by Him/Jesus Christ, and APART (or without) Him NOTHING CAME INTO BEING THAT HAS COME INTO BEING." So how can you say with a straight face that you believe Jesus was created outside time and he was copied/created non the less?

Or to put it another way? Why is Jesus Christ identifed as the Agent of creation here at John 1:3, Colossiabns 1:16,17, Hebrews 1:10 by His own Father and at Revelation 3:14? I mean it clearly says at Isaiah 44:24 the Lord God created everything "All Alone" and "By Himslelf." So why does He need help from Jesus?

And this statement here takes the cake. "When the bible speaks of Jesus creating all things it does not literally mean all things, for example, did Jesus create the father and HS? Who taught you to how to reason things out? Was it the Jw's? Where did you come up with this asinine conclusion? Do you believe God "eternally" exist?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[NWL]

I'm going to approach what you said in a little different manner then addressing each of your points (which btw I certaintly can do). I was reading some of your past post and I'm going to quote two them. "I believe Jesus was created outside of time but he was still/copied created non the less."

And here's the second quote. "When the bible speaks of Jesus creating all things it does not literally mean all things, for example, did Jesus create the father and HS? They are part of all things are they not? Typically when the bible uses absoulte langauge such as "no other", "only one" and "all things" it leaves out the...When the bible speaks of Jesus creating all things it does not literally mean all things, for example, did Jesus create the father and HS? They are part of all things are they not? Typically when the bible uses absoulte langauge such as "no other", "only one" and "all things" it leaves out the..."

First of all and I'm pretty sure your not aware of what I'm about to say regarding the word "beginning" as it relates to John 1:1 and Genesis 1:1. Both verses start out with the words, "In the beginning." The point of those words from Genesis 1:1 it on WHAT HAPPEND "in the beginning."

The point of those same words from John 1:1 the emphasis is on WHO EXISTED "in the beginning." Or before anything was created including time and space. Who was present with God and is God "BEFORE" God created the heavens and the earth."

So, I would like for you to "reconcile" your two ridiculous statements with (first Isaiah 44:24) "Thus says the Lord your Redemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I. the Lord am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE."

With (or second John 1:3, "ALL things came into being by Him/Jesus Christ, and APART (or without) Him NOTHING CAME INTO BEING THAT HAS COME INTO BEING." So how can you say with a straight face that you believe Jesus was created outside time and he was copied/created non the less?

Or to put it another way? Why is Jesus Christ identifed as the Agent of creation here at John 1:3, Colossiabns 1:16,17, Hebrews 1:10 by His own Father and at Revelation 3:14? I mean it clearly says at Isaiah 44:24 the Lord God created everything "All Alone" and "By Himslelf." So why does He need help from Jesus?

And this statement here takes the cake. "When the bible speaks of Jesus creating all things it does not literally mean all things, for example, did Jesus create the father and HS? Who taught you to how to reason things out? Was it the Jw's? Where did you come up with this asinine conclusion? Do you believe God "eternally" exist?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I've heard what you said about Gen 1:1 and John 1:1 before, but I fail to understand how those two passages are linked with Rev 3:14? You can't link a passage (beginning in Rev 3:14 with John 1:1 and Gen 1:1) simply because it uses a single word, namely "beginning", you link verses by phrases and context, not single word usages.

As soon as Jesus was created that was the beginning since Jesus was the first thing created as Rev 3:14 states, hence why John 1:1 states "in the beginning was the word, the word was with God and the word was theos". The word was with God in the beginning because they were the only two things in existence.

You ask me to explain my reasoning of Hebrews 1:1,2 and 1 Cor 8:6 Isaiah 44:24 so I will, however, I'm confused how my statements are "ridiculous", could you tell me how my statements are ridiculous, especially when my statements are quite literally paraphrases of the verses themselves, e.g, 1 Cor 8:6 - all things are from the Father and through Jesus and Hebrews 1:1,2 - The father created the world through Jesus. What about these statements are ridiculous?

I get your argument, God was alone according to Isaiah 44:24 so how can I say Jesus was with the person who helped God create. Isaiah 44:24 needs to be understood according to its context, if you were to read the entire chapter of Isaiah 44 you would find that God is challenging other falses gods and calling them out, he's vindicating his name in places of false idols that people were making. thus the context can only be stretched as far as that, Jehovah God was alone compared to those false gods, those false gods and those idols in Isaiah 44 weren't there when Jehovah stretched the heavens out. The comments made by Jehovah in v24 aren't defeinite statements and to be taken with so literally. Am I making this up? Lets compare scripture and see if what I'm saying is consistent. Isaiah 44:24 states "And I [Jehovah] spread out the earth. Who was with me?", you claim he was alone, but the scripture is clear he was not alone, Job 38:4-7 states that when Jehovah "founded the earth" the Angels or "morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause". So scripture confirms God was NOT alone. So again, Isaiah 44:24 seems to show as God being completely alone but this is not the case, God was alone in the context of there being no other God creating alongside with him, if you read Isaiah 44 you will see that this is the case.

Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you think you understand. 5 Who set its measurements, in case you know, Or who stretched a measuring line across it? 6 Into what were its pedestals sunk, Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?

Again you're taking the bible too literally, you see that John 1:3 states "All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence" and you naturally think that no other scripture sheds further light onto the matter. We must allow scripture to interpret scripture, we can't take John 1:3 over Hebrews 1:1 and 1 Cor 8:6 and we can't take Hebrews 1:1,2 and 1 Cor 8:6 over John 1:3, both pieces of the jigsaw must fit together. And this is where what I say next comes into play, definite statements such as "only one", "no other", "all things" aren't meant to be taken literally, again, they must be understood as far as the surrounding verse context allows. For example, Hebrews 2: states in regards to God and mankind:

"..You made him [Man] a little lower than angels; you crowned him with glory and honor, and appointed him over the works of your hands. 8 All things you subjected under his feet.” By subjecting all things to him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Now, though, we do not yet see all things in subjection to him. 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death.." (Hebrews 2:7-9)

As you can see the verse states God subject "all things" under man and goes as far to say "God left nothing not subject to him". Since you're in the habit of taking definite statements literally and since the verse says "all things" and that God left nothing not subjected to man does that mean that the Angels or even God were subjected to man since they are included in "all things"? (Please answer). We both know what the obvious answer is. Likewise John 1:3 says "all things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence" but again, scripture must interpret scripture, since other scripture alludes to Jesus being created (rev 3:14, Pro 8:22) and the father creating things through Jesus, and John 1:3 itself uses words such as di’ (through) indicating a channelship/agency when it comes to creation it is clear that the verse isn't making a claim that Jesus is the originator of creation. Even if it were it would contradict what is said in Hebrews 1:1,2 and 1 Cor 8:6 that state the Father is the originator of creation.

You ask:

Q. Why is Jesus Christ identifed as the Agent of creation here at John 1:3, Colossians 1:16,17, Hebrews 1:10 by His own Father and at Revelation 3:14?
A. Because he is, as I said earlier Jesus was the person whom the father used to create all things through, Hebrews 1:1,2 and 1 Cor 8:6 show this. Jesus isn't identified as the agent of creation in Rev 3:14 rather the beginning of it.

Q. I mean it clearly says at Isaiah 44:24 the Lord God created everything "All Alone" and "By Himslelf." So why does He need help from Jesus?
A. No, Isaiah 44:24 context was in relation to false gods and idols, the statement was not all-encompassing, read Isaiah 44 and the context.

Q. Did Jesus create the father and HS?
A. No

Q.Do you believe God "eternally" exist?
A. God has always existed and was here before the beginning.

 

[garee]

Jehovah is simply a word that describes a savior like the word Jesus or Joshua.

God does not have a name as we name people today . Every name of God is in respect to a immutable attribute of God. God is not a man as us . He is eternal Spirit having no form . Even the names he uses to identify us all have meaning prior to the birth . Jacob being changed to Israel has a great understanding when it comes to Christianity .

 

[NWL]

Jehovah is simply a word that describes a savior like the word Jesus or Joshua.

God does not have a name as we name people today . Every name of God is in respect to a immutable attribute of God. God is not a man as us . He is eternal Spirit having no form . Even the names he uses to identify us all have meaning prior to the birth . Jacob being changed to Israel has a great understanding when it comes to Christianity .

What are you basing your claim on that God does not have a name?

God himself disagrees with you since scripture clearly has him saying the following, "I am Jehovah. That is my name" (Isaiah 42:8-10) . God clearly identifies Jehovah/YHWH is his name. God even states that the name Jehovah/YHWH is his name forever and is how he is to be remembered:

(Exodus 3:15) "..Then God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation.."

God does have a name and it is in very much the same way as us humans today.

 

[User46952]

Jehovah is simply a word that describes a savior like the word Jesus or Joshua.

God does not have a name as we name people today . Every name of God is in respect to a immutable attribute of God. God is not a man as us . He is eternal Spirit having no form . Even the names he uses to identify us all have meaning prior to the birth . Jacob being changed to Israel has a great understanding when it comes to Christianity .

Name distinguish the God of Israel from other gods.
Otherwise, other religious people can also say "we worship the same god, but we call him differently".
So the God of Israel should have a name to differentiate from other gods.

 

[MEENA89]

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.


There are two, Lord God almighty and the Lamb.

 

[PS]

What are you basing your claim on that God does not have a name?

God himself disagrees with you since scripture clearly has him saying the following, "I am Jehovah. That is my name" (Isaiah 42:8-10) . God clearly identifies Jehovah/YHWH is his name. God even states that the name Jehovah/YHWH is his name forever and is how he is to be remembered:

(Exodus 3:15) "..Then God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation.."

God does have a name and it is in very much the same way as us humans today.

You are talking about the god of the Jews The name of Creator God on earth is Jesus. The Jews killed his flesh, they have another god.

 

[NWL]

You are talking about the god of the Jews The name of Creator God on earth is Jesus. The Jews killed his flesh, they have another god.

The Bible and Jesus disagree with you, the Jews understood the Father to be Jehovah, the prophet Isaiah stated "But now, O Jehovah, you are our Father" (Isaiah 64:8), the Jews who put Jesus to death themselves said, "we have one Father, God." (John 8:41), so Jehovah was indeed the name of the Father. Now, what did Jesus say to the Jews in regard to his message? Jesus told them "I have come in the name of my Father" (John 5:43), Jesus went so far as to tell his listeners that his very words were not his own but from the Father Jehovah who sent him (See John 12:49). Jesus clearly showed that he came not in his own name but the name of his Father, the name of the Father is Jehovah, so Jesus came in Jehovahs name.

Moreover, Jesus himself spoke of God being the creator and not himself, Jesus said "However, from the beginning of creation, ‘He [God] made them male and female.." (Mark 10:6). So your claim that Jesus is the name of the creator when on earth is contradictory when compared to scripture. Hebrews 1:1,2 and 1 Cor 8:6 completely destroy your claim in regards to Jesus being the source of creation or creator, since both of the verses clearly show the Father being the source of all things and creating the world through Jesus. If the Father created the world through Jesus then Jesus can't be the source/originator of creation, rather its the father.

(Hebrews 1:1, 2) "..God...Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.."

(1 Corinthians 8:6) "..there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live .."

 

[PS]

The Bible and Jesus disagree with you, the Jews understood the Father to be Jehovah, the prophet Isaiah stated "But now, O Jehovah, you are our Father" (Isaiah 64:8), the Jews who put Jesus to death themselves said, "we have one Father, God." (John 8:41), so Jehovah was indeed the name of the Father. Now, what did Jesus say to the Jews in regard to his message? Jesus told them "I have come in the name of my Father" (John 5:43), Jesus went so far as to tell his listeners that his very words were not his own but from the Father Jehovah who sent him (See John 12:49). Jesus clearly showed that he came not in his own name but the name of his Father, the name of the Father is Jehovah, so Jesus came in Jehovahs name.

Moreover, Jesus himself spoke of God being the creator and not himself, Jesus said "However, from the beginning of creation, ‘He [God] made them male and female.." (Mark 10:6). So your claim that Jesus is the name of the creator when on earth is contradictory when compared to scripture. Hebrews 1:1,2 and 1 Cor 8:6 completely destroy your claim in regards to Jesus being the source of creation or creator, since both of the verses clearly show the Father being the source of all things and creating the world through Jesus. If the Father created the world through Jesus then Jesus can't be the source/originator of creation, rather its the father.

(Hebrews 1:1, 2) "..God...Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.."

(1 Corinthians 8:6) "..there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live .."

The Jews worshipped Yahweh right.

Jesus told them their father was the devil. He also told them their father was not His Father when he said, "If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God"

He went on to say: Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Joh 8:44 KJV

The Jews have always had their own god. They tell of the god of the Jews. Their god is not the God of other nations. It is their god, nobody else's. We never speak of the god of the English, the god of the Americans, the god of the French or the Germans, but the Jews have their own Jewish god.

 

[NWL]

The Jews worshipped Yahweh right.

Jesus told them their father was the devil. He also told them their father was not His Father when he said, "If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God"

He went on to say: Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Joh 8:44 KJV

The Jews have always had their own god. They tell of the god of the Jews. Their god is not the God of other nations. It is their god, nobody else's. We never speak of the god of the English, the god of the Americans, the god of the French or the Germans, but the Jews have their own Jewish god.

You're missing the point though, and the Jews did worship the Father Jehovah, however, they were doing so incorrectly, it was their rejection of Jesus and their attributes and lack of faith that led to Jesus saying they were from the Devil, he didn't say they worshipped the Devil but were from him, why? Jesus explained, "you wish to do the desires of your father" (John 8:44).

Furthermore, the comment I made about Isaiah 64:8 was the main point I was making in regards to what you said previously, it was the prophet Isaiah who said "But now, O Jehovah, you are our Father" (Isaiah 64:8). Isaiah was a Jew, thus the Jewish God was the Father Jehovah, do you deny this?

 

[PS]

You're missing the point though, and the Jews did worship the Father Jehovah, however, they were doing so incorrectly, it was their rejection of Jesus and their attributes and lack of faith that led to Jesus saying they were from the Devil, he didn't say they worshipped the Devil but were from him, why? Jesus explained, "you wish to do the desires of your father" (John 8:44).

Furthermore, the comment I made about Isaiah 64:8 was the main point I was making in regards to what you said previously, it was the prophet Isaiah who said "But now, O Jehovah, you are our Father" (Isaiah 64:8). Isaiah was a Jew, thus the Jewish God was the Father Jehovah, do you deny this?

The Jews killed the disciples slowly, they cut Isaiah in half with a saw, how horrible is that, Saul, later Paul persecuted Christians, they made sacrifices to their god, and just before Jesus gave his life's blood for the whole world he cleared them out of the Temple because they were sacrificing to a false god, while the true sacrifice sent by the Father was standing right there in front of them.