Not By Works

[oldethennew]

this really goes back to the 'covenant of Abraham' =
GAL. 3:8.
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham,
saying, In you shall 'all nations be blessed'.
HEB. 4:1-2.
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into His rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but The Word preached did not profit them,
not being mixed with Faith in them that heard it.

HEB. 9:20.
Saying, This is The Blood of the testament=covenant, which God hath enjoined unto you.
ROMANS 15:8.
Now I say that Jesus Christ was A Minister of the circumcision for
The truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

we are 'saved' when we 'enter into Blood Covenant with Christ Jesus, through His Name'...
we 'become the children of Abraham', and are subject to the Blessings therein...

this is 'the good news, but this is old news', this is why Paul and the apostles could preach the gospel
'out of the 'old testament'...

 

[corazondeldei]

Yes, And this LOVE takes time to grow in our lives, It takes many steps of faith, it does nt happen overnight

John 14 was talking to men who had walked wiht God for three years. And experienced many things, They had already grown a lovve for him

You try to tell that to a baby Christ. Your risk losing him, They need to sit, Understand who and what God is, and take baby steps to grow and learn about God before they can fully appreciate him and truly love him

Sadly. Some believers do nto make it out of baby stage, Does this mean they were never saved?

The leglaism comes is when certain churches claim if you still do this or that, or are not growing as fast as they think you are. Your not saved, Or your not in Gods will. Or whatever form of performance midgame they play.

I'll bet with you.

Not everyone who comes to Jesus will automatically experience that love or know it and indeed will struggle with it.

They still fear that God loves them. Where they are at and by what they do not do to the expense of what they do not do.
That is due to the experiences of life.

1 John 4:18-19
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love Him because He first loved us.

You my fine friend have had a long walk with our Lord.
Mature in the faith and life experiences.
You have learned and God had released you from the things of life that has helped you grow in this Agape love.

This is not true, if this was true, a baby christian would be sinless and a perfect walker of God from that point on, they would not need to learn, They would not need to test.
They would not need to go through trial and tribulation.

Why do you think the corinthian church had so many struggles with deep personal sin? Because they did not YET KNOW GOD t a point they could really LOVE HIM yet. As paul said, they were still BABES

All the things which happens between any two induviduals which causes them to agape one another (a husband truely does not know their wife when they first get married,)

NIV1984 Matthew 13:11-23
He replied, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

 

[dcontroversal]

Mr. VCO... can you find for me one clear scripture that states we are born again by making Jesus Lord/Master of our lives.

The entire Gospel of John is about "believe"

Jesus gives eternal life to those who believe in Him for it, He is the object of our faith for salvation because our dead works cannot save us. If it was about making Him Lord of our life....why then did He die on the cross and rise from the dead?

Jesus is a personal saviour...Messiah[/QUOTE\]

I have no problem seeing that one can be saved and while in immaturity or ignorance not fully submitting to JESUS as LORD of their life......We accept hi as our savior and grow into him being fully in control of our life as LORD......

 

[corazondeldei]

Yeah I will bet you

You can not LOVE someone until you KNOW THEM

At best all a new born child of God can do is APPRECIATE and have REVERENCE or GRATTITUDE for God.

I know Ronald Reagan, I loved him as a resident, He did so much for me and this country

But I can’t say I LOVE HIM, because I do not KNOW him.

Paul in eph 1 prays that the people grow to have WISDOM and REVELATION of the things God has given them, He speaks about experiencing first hand and really KNOWING (epignoso which is personal knowledge) God. And Christ

A new baby can think in his mind, I declair that I am going to obey God. Be he does not even know what that truly means yet.

NIV1984 Matthew 25:31-46
The Sheep and the Goats “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ “The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[dcontroversal]

1 John 3:6-7 is not talking about two natures in the believer, one sinning and the other righteous. It is talking about people who are born of God and people who are not born of God. Anyone who reads the whole chapter (and book) in it's context can see that, unless a person is reading their own ideas into the text.

Pal....you have no idea and exactly why MOST have you on ignore...your drivel and bather = deceit....PAUL was clear, so was JESUS.....the bible is replete of the conflict between the two natures, you are just too dense to grasp it.....

 

[dcontroversal]

Says who ?
I came to post for those who feel insecure in their faith , we do not know who is sitting on the side lines looking in , like I used to , so I think my post is very fitting , maybe not for you , but for someone else...xox...

Rose...keep swinging...Macaroni is about as dense as lead.....and for sure does not know or have the truth......

 

[dcontroversal]

and if they do not?

My bible is clear........but Macaroni cannot accept the following truth...it destroys his religious blather....

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[corazondeldei]

NIV1984 Romans 6:16-23
Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[dcontroversal]

taken by itself, this sounds like you believe in sinless perfectionalsim..lol

Obviously you know better..........

 

[dcontroversal]

Then You DO NOT LOVE THE LORD, which means YOU are NOT YET BORN AGAIN.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

I do not agree with this......it is NOT that we loved him, but that he loved us and gave himself for us....NO ONE loves GOD before salvation and after salvation it is a process of growth and maturity with ever level of love found in believers....

 

[Endoscopy]

It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!

English Standard Version
he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Berean Study Bible
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Berean Literal Bible
He saved us, not by works in righteousness that we did, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

New American Standard Bible
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

King James Bible
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

You ignore the place works has in relation to faith.

James 2 AMPC

14 What is the use (profit), my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]?

15 If a brother or sister is poorly clad and lacks food for each day,

16 And one of you says to him, Good-bye! Keep [yourself] warm and well fed, without giving him the necessities for the body, what good does that do?

17 So also faith, if it does not have works (deeds and actions of obedience to back it up), by itself is destitute of power (inoperative, dead).

18 But someone will say [to you then], You [say you] have faith, and I have [good] works. Now you show me your [alleged] faith apart from any [good] works [if you can], and I by [good] works [of obedience] will show you my faith.

 

[Endoscopy]

wrong faith produces walking with produces. you will not walk (work) if you do not have faith

your tryign to mix faith and works, CANT DO IT.

James in chapter 2 disagrees with you!

 

[dcontroversal]

cannot be saved without Christ being your Lord,

and......

Christ is your Lord if you are saved, whether you know it or not.

Can someone read these two lines and tell me if they read a contradiction?

I completely read two opposing ideas

My bible states he is LORD of the living and the dead........he is LORD of lords.......saved or not

 

[dcontroversal]

You ignore the place works has in relation to faith.

James 2 AMPC

14 What is the use (profit), my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]?

15 If a brother or sister is poorly clad and lacks food for each day,

16 And one of you says to him, Good-bye! Keep [yourself] warm and well fed, without giving him the necessities for the body, what good does that do?

17 So also faith, if it does not have works (deeds and actions of obedience to back it up), by itself is destitute of power (inoperative, dead).

18 But someone will say [to you then], You [say you] have faith, and I have [good] works. Now you show me your [alleged] faith apart from any [good] works [if you can], and I by [good] works [of obedience] will show you my faith.

Go bow down to your Catholic creed pal....we had this dance already and your blather = no credence

 

[corazondeldei]

Of course a believer in Christ doesn't abandon and forsake His commandments....

Does that mean all who know Him uphold them perfectly? No.

We understand and value them and keep them.

What do you mean faith in who?
Of course Jesus is the only way.

The only door to heaven.


Not our walk, not our works, not the number of fruit He produces in us.


Some trees will have less than others, but they are equally saved by our Lord and savior Jesus.

We ENTER IN Jesus who is the WAY (that we should WALK), the TRUTH (that we should believe) and the LIFE (that we should ENTER and live).

Did He say that we can ENTER without obeying His commands or being deliberately DISOBEDIENT? Did he teach obedience to God and instruct His disciples to teach it as well unto all nations and promised to be with them and in them with the Father?

NIV1984 Matthew 19:16-17
Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”

NIV1984 1 John 2:3-6
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him MUST WALK AS JESUS DID.

NIV1984 2 John 1:5-11
And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love. Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

NIV1984 John 14:21-24
Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

And when you SOW to please the Spirit and reap eternal life, do you just claim salvation and do no WORKS?

NIV1984 John 4:34-38
“My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. Do you not say, ‘Four months more and then the harvest’? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now he harvests the crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together. Thus the saying ‘One sows and another reaps’ is true. I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor.”

NIV1984 Galatians 6:7-10
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

NIV1984 Matthew 3:10
The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

" No deceiver would truly teach OBEDIENCE TO GOD and no true Christian would teach DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD."

 

[mailmandan]

GO RAPTORS.

Game 6 was close! Raptors win!

 

[Macabeus]

Pal....you have no idea and exactly why MOST have you on ignore...your drivel and bather = deceit....PAUL was clear, so was JESUS.....the bible is replete of the conflict between the two natures, you are just too dense to grasp it.....

First of all, I don't care if people have me on ignore.

Secondly, Paul didn't write 1 John! Catch up and read the posts, man!

 

[Macabeus]

My bible is clear........but Macaroni cannot accept the following truth...it destroys his religious blather....

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Yep, Hebrews 3:6 is CLEAR. Those who are Christ's house hold fast their confidence and hope until the end!!!

That's religious blather to you. OHHHHKAAAAY!!!

 

[Macabeus]

Rose...keep swinging...Macaroni is about as dense as lead.....and for sure does not know or have the truth......

At least I KNOW that Paul didnt write 1 John (see post 101,465). and I don't resort to ad hominems. Ad hominems are for people with no argument. Oh, and what Hebrews 3:6 is not religious blather either. You called perserverance of the saints religious blather, yet Hebrews 3:6 teaches that Christ's house holds fast to the end.

Guess you didn't know hold fast and perservere mean the same thing.

 

[Macabeus]

Pal....you have no idea and exactly why MOST have you on ignore...your drivel and bather = deceit....PAUL was clear, so was JESUS.....the bible is replete of the conflict between the two natures, you are just too dense to grasp it.....

Yeah sure. Let's take what Paul said in Romans and Galatians and transpose it onto 1 John 3. Let's follow that through and walk through the text that way and see what we get

The new nature that abideth in him sinneth not: the flesh hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you. The new nature that practices righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 The flesh that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9. The new nature that is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and the new nature cannot sin, because the new nature is born of God.
10 In this the new nature is manifest, and the flesh is manifest, the flesh that doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.



IT IS EVIDENT THAT 1 John 3:6-10 ARE talking about two different groups of people, Those who are born of God and those that are not. YOU do GREAT VIOLENCE to the text by making them all refer to two natures of believer, and even greater violence by making one of them refer to two natures and the rest referring to two groups of people, because then, you are breaking just about every rule of interpretation on the face of the earth.