The Days of the Lord, The comings of Christ, The Returning's of Jesus, The Advents, The Descending's of our Lord, ever heard of them?

[DeighAnn]

I can not find a place where one Lords' Day references the other Lords' Day.

I can not find one place in scripture where the two "Days of the Lord" are mentioned together.

I can find no place where they are compared. or contrasted, to each other.

I can not find a place where the "verb" for either of these days is put forth as plural.

I can not a place suggesting that there would be a return of the Lord, before the Return of the Lord which comes "AFTER the falling away and AFTER the man of sin revealed, when ALL will be changed, and He returns as Lord of lords and King of kings, also called the 2nd Advent and/or the Day of Vengeance (the 2nd part of the sentence He was reading in the temple in Isaiah but instead of finishing shut the book because that 2nd day? was not at hand, (which you would think, if there was a day, before that day, that that day would be mentioned here at the very least)

I can not find a single place that says "the church", well, apparently not the whole church, just a part of the church, the part that doesn't contain Gods elect, or the 144 or those who will not be deceived or those who will be deceived", will be taken out before His return as King of kings. I can't find "His Title" for this event either. (Are there now 2 marriages? one before and one after?)

Apparently there is some sort of "instant" judgment, I guess that would have to be true for EVERYONE ALIVE at that moment in time. (Not at all like at the end of the tribulation when it will be so easy because everyone will either have the "Mark" or not.) I just think it would feel weird to TELL God, "I have been waiting for you to get here, just take me away, this is so much better than dying or sticking around to go through Satans trying to tempt me"
Will the ones "left" find out at that time, if they are either part of the Elect or the 144 (church of Smyrna), or if they are part of the others?

Does it seem really weird that there are pages and pages dedicated to "what to eat" but not a single, put forth straight so we can all strive for it paragraph on this, if it were true, one of the biggest events to ever happen to mankind?

Did you know that the KJV Bible is public domain, but not really?

 

[iamsoandso]

lol, Well welcome aboard It seems as if there's a spark lit in you to ponder eschatology like we have,,

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

lol, Well welcome aboard It seems as if there's a spark lit in you to ponder eschatology like we have,,

Well said.

Ditto what he said. lol

Welcome (again).

 

[Journeyman]

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. Jn.14:23

Problem is, people want Jesus to come and change them, without coming to change them.

 

[Adstar]

I can not find a place where one Lords' Day references the other Lords' Day.

I can not find one place in scripture where the two "Days of the Lord" are mentioned together.

I can find no place where they are compared. or contrasted, to each other.

I can not find a place where the "verb" for either of these days is put forth as plural.

I can not a place suggesting that there would be a return of the Lord, before the Return of the Lord which comes "AFTER the falling away and AFTER the man of sin revealed, when ALL will be changed, and He returns as Lord of lords and King of kings, also called the 2nd Advent and/or the Day of Vengeance (the 2nd part of the sentence He was reading in the temple in Isaiah but instead of finishing shut the book because that 2nd day? was not at hand, (which you would think, if there was a day, before that day, that that day would be mentioned here at the very least)

I can not find a single place that says "the church", well, apparently not the whole church, just a part of the church, the part that doesn't contain Gods elect, or the 144 or those who will not be deceived or those who will be deceived", will be taken out before His return as King of kings. I can't find "His Title" for this event either. (Are there now 2 marriages? one before and one after?)

Apparently there is some sort of "instant" judgment, I guess that would have to be true for EVERYONE ALIVE at that moment in time. (Not at all like at the end of the tribulation when it will be so easy because everyone will either have the "Mark" or not.) I just think it would feel weird to TELL God, "I have been waiting for you to get here, just take me away, this is so much better than dying or sticking around to go through Satans trying to tempt me"
Will the ones "left" find out at that time, if they are either part of the Elect or the 144 (church of Smyrna), or if they are part of the others?

Does it seem really weird that there are pages and pages dedicated to "what to eat" but not a single, put forth straight so we can all strive for it paragraph on this, if it were true, one of the biggest events to ever happen to mankind?

Did you know that the KJV Bible is public domain, but not really?

Yeah there is only one Day of the LORD when Jesus shall return in all His glory..

There is no pre-trubulation rapture.. But we will be caught up on the day of the LORD to meet Him in the Air as He arrives .. Some as a resurection and others who are alive at the time and remain will be caught up with them and we from that moment on shall always be with our LORD..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

One must remember

In the rapture (latin word means to catch up” the lord does not come to earth, We meet him in heaven (the sky)

In the actual day of the lord when he returns, He places what the military calls “boots on the ground” on the mount of olives, and it splits in two!

Also remember, The OT only spoke of one coming, Thats was part of the hidden mystery, that the messiah and suffering servant were the same person, So some parts of prophesy will remain hidden until they actually take place.

I would not set any belief in stone. (However some we can directly understand this is not true

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I can not find a place where one Lords' Day references the other Lords' Day.

I can not find one place in scripture where the two "Days of the Lord" are mentioned together.

[…]

I can not find a place where the "verb" for either of these days is put forth as plural.

.

Are you thinking, perhaps, that the phrase "the day of the Lord" refers to "a singular 24-hr day"?

 

[DeighAnn]

.

Are you thinking, perhaps, that the phrase "the day of the Lord" refers to "a singular 24-hr day"?

No, The Lords Day will be 1000 yrs, in my humble opinion.

 

[Dino246]

English doesn't always capture the nuance of meaning intended by the original language(s). Plus, we tend to think that we can change words around and retain the meaning.

In the KJV, the phrase, "the Lord's day" is used exactly once, in Revelation 1:10, and is commonly believed to refer to what we now call Sunday. In constrast, the phrase, "the day of the Lord" is used 34 times, always in the context of judgment. Using the first when referring to the second is likely to cause confusion.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

English doesn't always capture the nuance of meaning intended by the original language(s). Plus, we tend to think that we can change words around and retain the meaning.

In the KJV, the phrase, "the Lord's day" is used exactly once, in Revelation 1:10, and is commonly believed to refer to what we now call Sunday. In constrast, the phrase, "the day of the Lord" is used 34 times, always in the context of judgment. Using the first when referring to the second is likely to cause confusion.

Love this, I never thought of this, very insiteful. Thank you bro.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No, The Lords Day will be 1000 yrs, in my humble opinion.

So we fairly agree here. I do too.

I see it like this:
____________

The phrase "the Day of the Lord" covers the time period of all three of the following:

1) the 7-year tribulation period upon the earth (the "DARK" portion [i.e. "IN THE NIGHT"])

2) Christ's Second Coming to the earth (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" portion)

3) His 1000-year reign on/over the earth (the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" portion)

...ALL earth-related time period (of long duration).

[whereas the phrase "the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ" is not on the earth, but when we are "caught up" and are present "with [G4862 - denoting 'UNION' (UNIONED-with) and/or 'IDENTIFICATION' with] the Lord--and so shall we ever be with the Lord]

[end quoting a previous post of mine]

____________

...depending on CONTEXT, a passage covers one or more of these three aspects OF it.

So, as other "days" (prophecy-related; or related to "Israel's" things), all "days" started "the evening before" (that is, at sundown ["DARK/DARKNESS"])…


… and (to be considered, IMO) other "time-related[-prophecy-related]" things were factored using a 360-day-year, so that (for example) the "70-yr Captivity" (Dan9:2) actually factored out to last something like 69 [regular] yrs, plus one day (or something similar... too early in the day to recall precisely ), and this is ascertained by [the information supplied in scripture about] which king reigned at what time (… along those lines... my actual notes are filed away where I can't get to them at present, and I'm in a hurry to get to some other work).

____________

[note: many versions have "the day of the Lord" in 2Th2:2, which I believe to be the correct rendering and which makes the best sense of not only the sentence itself, but also the wider context... "[purporting] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [perfect tense, indicative]"]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have always considered the day of the lord as the day or time period) where the lord says enough is enough and pours out his wrath on this earth.

 

[Absolutely]

Yeah there is only one Day of the LORD when Jesus shall return in all His glory..

There is no pre-trubulation rapture.. But we will be caught up on the day of the LORD to meet Him in the Air as He arrives .. Some as a resurection and others who are alive at the time and remain will be caught up with them and we from that moment on shall always be with our LORD..

Rev 14.
Read it.
Oooops.
Back to the drawing board.

 

[Absolutely]

I can not find a place where one Lords' Day references the other Lords' Day.

I can not find one place in scripture where the two "Days of the Lord" are mentioned together.

I can find no place where they are compared. or contrasted, to each other.

I can not find a place where the "verb" for either of these days is put forth as plural.

I can not a place suggesting that there would be a return of the Lord, before the Return of the Lord which comes "AFTER the falling away and AFTER the man of sin revealed, when ALL will be changed, and He returns as Lord of lords and King of kings, also called the 2nd Advent and/or the Day of Vengeance (the 2nd part of the sentence He was reading in the temple in Isaiah but instead of finishing shut the book because that 2nd day? was not at hand, (which you would think, if there was a day, before that day, that that day would be mentioned here at the very least)

I can not find a single place that says "the church", well, apparently not the whole church, just a part of the church, the part that doesn't contain Gods elect, or the 144 or those who will not be deceived or those who will be deceived", will be taken out before His return as King of kings. I can't find "His Title" for this event either. (Are there now 2 marriages? one before and one after?)

Apparently there is some sort of "instant" judgment, I guess that would have to be true for EVERYONE ALIVE at that moment in time. (Not at all like at the end of the tribulation when it will be so easy because everyone will either have the "Mark" or not.) I just think it would feel weird to TELL God, "I have been waiting for you to get here, just take me away, this is so much better than dying or sticking around to go through Satans trying to tempt me"
Will the ones "left" find out at that time, if they are either part of the Elect or the 144 (church of Smyrna), or if they are part of the others?

Does it seem really weird that there are pages and pages dedicated to "what to eat" but not a single, put forth straight so we can all strive for it paragraph on this, if it were true, one of the biggest events to ever happen to mankind?

Did you know that the KJV Bible is public domain, but not really?

Rev 14.
Read it.
Oooops.
Back to the drawing board.

 

[DeighAnn]

So we fairly agree here. I do too.

I see it like this:
____________

The phrase "the Day of the Lord" covers the time period of all three of the following:

1) the 7-year tribulation period upon the earth (the "DARK" portion [i.e. "IN THE NIGHT"])

2) Christ's Second Coming to the earth (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" portion)

3) His 1000-year reign on/over the earth (the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" portion)

...ALL earth-related time period (of long duration).

[whereas the phrase "the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ" is not on the earth, but when we are "caught up" and are present "with [G4862 - denoting 'UNION' (UNIONED-with) and/or 'IDENTIFICATION' with] the Lord--and so shall we ever be with the Lord]

[end quoting a previous post of mine]

____________

...depending on CONTEXT, a passage covers one or more of these three aspects OF it.

So, as other "days" (prophecy-related; or related to "Israel's" things), all "days" started "the evening before" (that is, at sundown ["DARK/DARKNESS"])…


… and (to be considered, IMO) other "time-related[-prophecy-related]" things were factored using a 360-day-year, so that (for example) the "70-yr Captivity" (Dan9:2) actually factored out to last something like 69 [regular] yrs, plus one day (or something similar... too early in the day to recall precisely ), and this is ascertained by [the information supplied in scripture about] which king reigned at what time (… along those lines... my actual notes are filed away where I can't get to them at present, and I'm in a hurry to get to some other work).

____________

[note: many versions have "the day of the Lord" in 2Th2:2, which I believe to be the correct rendering and which makes the best sense of not only the sentence itself, but also the wider context... "[purporting] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [perfect tense, indicative]"]

Thank you. Please tell me what scripture you used for numbers 1-3. And also where the "Day of the Lord" s meaning is split up. Do you have anything on any of my other questions? I do use the Interlinear and the Strongs and have done a bit of research into this subject so I am very interested as to where I missed all this. Everyone keeps talking about this "7" year period. Are you getting this from the 2 - 3.5 periods?

 

[Ahwatukee]

I can not find a place where one Lords' Day references the other Lords' Day.

I can not find one place in scripture where the two "Days of the Lord" are mentioned together.

I can find no place where they are compared. or contrasted, to each other.

I can not find a place where the "verb" for either of these days is put forth as plural.

I can not a place suggesting that there would be a return of the Lord, before the Return of the Lord which comes "AFTER the falling away and AFTER the man of sin revealed, when ALL will be changed, and He returns as Lord of lords and King of kings, also called the 2nd Advent and/or the Day of Vengeance (the 2nd part of the sentence He was reading in the temple in Isaiah but instead of finishing shut the book because that 2nd day? was not at hand, (which you would think, if there was a day, before that day, that that day would be mentioned here at the very least)

I can not find a single place that says "the church", well, apparently not the whole church, just a part of the church, the part that doesn't contain Gods elect, or the 144 or those who will not be deceived or those who will be deceived", will be taken out before His return as King of kings. I can't find "His Title" for this event either. (Are there now 2 marriages? one before and one after?)

Apparently there is some sort of "instant" judgment, I guess that would have to be true for EVERYONE ALIVE at that moment in time. (Not at all like at the end of the tribulation when it will be so easy because everyone will either have the "Mark" or not.) I just think it would feel weird to TELL God, "I have been waiting for you to get here, just take me away, this is so much better than dying or sticking around to go through Satans trying to tempt me"
Will the ones "left" find out at that time, if they are either part of the Elect or the 144 (church of Smyrna), or if they are part of the others?

Does it seem really weird that there are pages and pages dedicated to "what to eat" but not a single, put forth straight so we can all strive for it paragraph on this, if it were true, one of the biggest events to ever happen to mankind?

Did you know that the KJV Bible is public domain, but not really?

Good day DeighAnn!

Will the ones "left" find out at that time, if they are either part of the Elect or the 144 (church of Smyrna), or if they are part of the others?

First of all, you have erred in your inference in referring that the 144,000 are of the (church of Smyrna). I don't know why people continue to make the 144,000 as being apart of the church, when scripture is very clear on who this group is, as can been seen below:

"And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel:"

After the statement is made above, John then gives us a detailed account of 12,000 listing each of the twelve tribes of Israel who are being sealed. The on-going problem is that people are not believing what they are reading and that because of the teachings of men, where they spiritualize, or symbolize information that is meant to be interpreted literally.

That said, the 144,000 is a specific group of Israelites who will come out of unbelieving Israel who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah. This 144,000 coming out of Israel is figurative of the woman/Israel giving birth to the male child. This group will be sealed during the first 3 1/2 years and will be caught up to God and His throne in the middle of the seven before the dragon/Satan can devour/kill them.

I can not a place suggesting that there would be a return of the Lord, before the Return of the Lord which comes "AFTER the falling away and AFTER the man of sin revealed, when ALL will be changed, and He returns as Lord of lords and King of kings, also called the 2nd Advent and/or the Day of Vengeance (the 2nd part of the sentence He was reading in the temple in Isaiah but instead of finishing shut the book because that 2nd day? was not at hand, (which you would think, if there was a day, before that day, that that day would be mentioned here at the very least)

Your error here, is the same for many in that, you are confusing two separate events:

The appearing of the Lord to gather His church

At this event, the Lord will descend to the atmosphere (air) and with a voice that sounds like a trumpet, will first call up all those who have died in Him, which is the next phase of the first resurrection. Immediately after that, those who are still alive will be changed immortal and glorified and will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. This will be in fulfillment of the Lord's promise found in John 14:1-3 where Jesus said that He was going to the Father's house (heaven) to prepare places for all believers and that He would come again and get us to take us to take us back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is a detailed account of His return to get us.

The Lord's return to the earth to end the age

This event is when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom (Dan.2:31-45). This event of the Lord's return can be found in Matt.24:29-31 and a detailed account in Revelation 19:11-21.

In regards to Dan.2:31-45, Jesus is the Rock that is cut out of the mountain without human hands which falls on the feet of the statue, which represents all human government, with the ten-toed kingdom being that future kingdom made of iron and partly baked clay. Notice that when the Rock falls on the feet of the statue, that the entire statue (human government) is smashed to pieces with the wind blowing it away without leaving a trace, i.e. the end of human governments and the establishing of His. For Jesus is that Rock that will become a huge mountain and fill the entire earth.

Prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, the wrath of God must take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which will decimate the majority of the earths population and dismantle all human government. Regarding this time period, Jesus said:

"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened."

Now, regarding believers in Christ, scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath (any wrath). The underlying reason for this, is because God's wrath that every believer deserves was poured out on Christ. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe in Christ and that because it has already been satisfied. In relation to this, we have the scriptures stating that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that Lord promised that for those who overcome, He would keep us out of the time of God's wrath - Rev.3:10.

In conclusion, since God's wrath must take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, then the church who is not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, must first be removed from the earth, which will take place when He descends to gather His church and take us back to the Father's house. Revelation 19:6-8 shows the bride/church in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb and receiving her fine linen, white and clean. Then in verse 14 of the same chapter, we see the armies of heaven (the church) wearing that same fine linen and following the Lord out of heaven on white horses returning to the earth with Him to end age.

 

[DeighAnn]

So we fairly agree here. I do too.

I see it like this:
____________

The phrase "the Day of the Lord" covers the time period of all three of the following:

1) the 7-year tribulation period upon the earth (the "DARK" portion [i.e. "IN THE NIGHT"])

2) Christ's Second Coming to the earth (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" portion)

3) His 1000-year reign on/over the earth (the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" portion)

...ALL earth-related time period (of long duration).

[whereas the phrase "the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ" is not on the earth, but when we are "caught up" and are present "with [G4862 - denoting 'UNION' (UNIONED-with) and/or 'IDENTIFICATION' with] the Lord--and so shall we ever be with the Lord]

[end quoting a previous post of mine]

____________

...depending on CONTEXT, a passage covers one or more of these three aspects OF it.

So, as other "days" (prophecy-related; or related to "Israel's" things), all "days" started "the evening before" (that is, at sundown ["DARK/DARKNESS"])…


… and (to be considered, IMO) other "time-related[-prophecy-related]" things were factored using a 360-day-year, so that (for example) the "70-yr Captivity" (Dan9:2) actually factored out to last something like 69 [regular] yrs, plus one day (or something similar... too early in the day to recall precisely ), and this is ascertained by [the information supplied in scripture about] which king reigned at what time (… along those lines... my actual notes are filed away where I can't get to them at present, and I'm in a hurry to get to some other work).

____________

[note: many versions have "the day of the Lord" in 2Th2:2, which I believe to be the correct rendering and which makes the best sense of not only the sentence itself, but also the wider context... "[purporting] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [perfect tense, indicative]"]

So we fairly agree here. I do too.

I see it like this:
____________

The phrase "the Day of the Lord" covers the time period of all three of the following:

1) the 7-year tribulation period upon the earth (the "DARK" portion [i.e. "IN THE NIGHT"])

2) Christ's Second Coming to the earth (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" portion)

3) His 1000-year reign on/over the earth (the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" portion)

...ALL earth-related time period (of long duration).

[whereas the phrase "the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ" is not on the earth, but when we are "caught up" and are present "with [G4862 - denoting 'UNION' (UNIONED-with) and/or 'IDENTIFICATION' with] the Lord--and so shall we ever be with the Lord]

[end quoting a previous post of mine]

____________

...depending on CONTEXT, a passage covers one or more of these three aspects OF it.

So, as other "days" (prophecy-related; or related to "Israel's" things), all "days" started "the evening before" (that is, at sundown ["DARK/DARKNESS"])…


… and (to be considered, IMO) other "time-related[-prophecy-related]" things were factored using a 360-day-year, so that (for example) the "70-yr Captivity" (Dan9:2) actually factored out to last something like 69 [regular] yrs, plus one day (or something similar... too early in the day to recall precisely ), and this is ascertained by [the information supplied in scripture about] which king reigned at what time (… along those lines... my actual notes are filed away where I can't get to them at present, and I'm in a hurry to get to some other work).

____________

[note: many versions have "the day of the Lord" in 2Th2:2, which I believe to be the correct rendering and which makes the best sense of not only the sentence itself, but also the wider context... "[purporting] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [perfect tense, indicative]"]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Thank you. Please tell me what scripture you used for numbers 1-3. And also where the "Day of the Lord" s meaning is split up. Do you have anything on any of my other questions? I do use the Interlinear and the Strongs and have done a bit of research into this subject so I am very interested as to where I missed all this. Everyone keeps talking about this "7" year period. Are you getting this from the 2 - 3.5 periods?

Well, let me start out by asking for clarification regarding what you mean when you say you believe "the Lord's day will be 1000 yrs" ("the DOTL"/"Lord's day," I assume?)… I'm assuming you believe that it STARTS when Jesus "RETURNS" [to the earth] (for the earthly Millennial Kingdom), am I correct? If so, in my view, that is when the "BLESSED" [blessing] aspect of "the DOTL" occurs/begins (see Dan12:12 "BLESSED" and about 10 passages in the gospels and Rev that also speak of "BLESSED" with regard to their entrance into the "[earthly] kingdom age")… but before the "blessing" aspect comes the "judgment/dark/in-the-night/wrath/negatives/etc" aspect (i.e. the specific limited time period leading UP TO the earthly MK, and involving "the man of sin" [and ALL he will DO], the "beginning of birth PANGS" [i.e. the SEALS]," the "SEALS/TRUMPETS/VIALS," the "SIGNS" of His [Jesus'] coming, etc...). [all the same "Day"]


[edit to add: I would cover much more in this response, but my first objective is just to show our basic differences in understanding are not so far off from one another, if your view is that "the DOTL" STARTS at His Second Coming (to the earth), as in Rev19]

 

[DeighAnn]

Well, let me start out by asking for clarification regarding what you mean when you say you believe "the Lord's day will be 1000 yrs" ("the DOTL"/"Lord's day," I assume?)… I'm assuming you believe that it STARTS when Jesus "RETURNS" [to the earth] (for the earthly Millennial Kingdom), am I correct? If so, in my view, that is when the "BLESSED" [blessing] aspect of "the DOTL" occurs/begins (see Dan12:12 "BLESSED" and about 10 passages in the gospels and Rev that also speak of "BLESSED" with regard to their entrance into the "[earthly] kingdom age")… but before the "blessing" aspect comes the "judgment/dark/in-the-night/wrath/negatives/etc" aspect (i.e. the specific limited time period leading UP TO the earthly MK, and involving "the man of sin" [and ALL he will DO], the "beginning of birth PANGS" [i.e. the SEALS]," the "SEALS/TRUMPETS/VIALS," the "SIGNS" of His [Jesus'] coming, etc...). [all the same "Day"]


[edit to add: I would cover much more in this response, but my first objective is just to show our basic differences in understanding are not so far off from one another, if your view is that "the DOTL" STARTS at His Second Coming (to the earth), as in Rev19]

We are in agreement if you believe "The 2nd Advent", He will descend as He ascended, The Lords Day, The Day of Vengeance, The day the dead are resurrected followed by "all are changed" that happens 3 1/2 days after the Two witnesses are killed and lie in the street and are raised with the breath of life, and at the brightness of His coming at the Last Trump which is the Furtherest one out, Satan bound 1000 yrs (how we know how long the Lords day really is) and that millennium period there will be no flesh. Just quick summary to see where we are, I agree, great way to start.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The Day of the Lord's ARRIVAL will be "SUDDEN" (like an INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"), no "SIGNS" precede it, no "seals/trumpets/vials," no "wrath" and "judgment" PRECEDES its ARRIVAL (but follow on from its arrival), 1Th5:2-3.