Not By Works

[Macabeus]

Hmm or really Mr. M

Is this also descriptive about believers .....

“No one who lives in [Christ] keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him” (1 John 3:6)

Yes, it is descriptive of believers. The verb "sins" is an durative verb. That is why the best translations translate it "keeps on sinning", "continues to sin" and "practices sin".

Same type of verb as "practice righteousnenss". durative verb. Believers do not/are not to continue to sin in a durative, ititerative, or habitual lifestyle sense. BUT they DO practice righteousness in a durative, ititerative, and habitual lifestyle sense. John said it, not me.

 

[Macabeus]

Hmm or really Mr. M

Is this also descriptive about believers .....

“No one who lives in [Christ] keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him” (1 John 3:6)

The verbs we are discussing in 1 John, (practice sin or practice righteousness) are denoting continuous, progressive, linear action. It does not mean a few instances of righteousness or conversely of sin here or there (as exceptions to the rule), but rather a continuing, durative, ititerative, progressive, pattern, ie (as a lifestyle) of one or the other.

You can do the same with agapeo, love. Not merely love here or there, but rather a lifestyle of loving, not only in word, but also in deed and truth

SO a believer may fall into sin, but will not MAKE HIS OR HER HOME THERE, (ie practice sin in a continuous, linear, progressive, sense. Just as a sheep may fall in the mud, but not desire to remain there, whereas a pig will gleefully wallow there.)

Like saying "Sheep do not continue in the mud, do not practice mud wallowing, whereas pigs do"

All based on nature, and therefore DESCRIPTIVE.

A sheep is not a sheep because it does not wallow in mud, it does not wallow in mud because it is a sheep.

 

[Macabeus]

Whether verb or noun we do not work on perfecting ourselves, that is the point, Jesus is the source we draw from.

All I am trying to do is get you to see that you do not work for what you already have.... we do not learn/practice to sin less and less.

...we are sinless in Christ....John is boldly proclaiming we are born of God, our new nature is pure and holy, live in it and express it outward every day and let it dominate our experience and lives!!

How you interpret scripture is closer to @FollowHisSteps and Mr. VCO that is no fun and not what God wants for us.

Two scenarios of "practicing righteousness" and "practicing sin". Of course, there are other variations, but just for a general idea of basically what the phrases mean.


Billy received Jesus as Saviour 2 years ago. He trusts Jesus fully for his salvation, and rests in the fact that His sins are forgiven. Billy loves Jesus, and wants to serve Him out of nothing but love and gratitude. Billy is not sinless, but he is quick to confess His sins to God and wants to grow in obedience, not out of duty, but out of love and a desire to bear fruit for God. He doesn't want to sin because he loves God and he doesnt want people to stumble because of him, but he realizes he is far from perfect. But he is growing...

Billy is practicing righteousness by walking in the Light.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jimmy goes to church every Sunday, is careful to read three chapters of Bible a day, and faithfully gives his tithe. He does all the external things associated with christianity, but has never received the New Birth. Jimmy lives a double life, on the outside, he looks like the ideal Christian, but behind the scenes, he is not above telling a "little lie" when convenient, and likes to play and dabble in immorality, saying "it's OK, I can just confess it later and God will forgive me." Jimmy has no interest in growing, because he has never been saved in the first place. Reading the Bible and going to church and praying are things that he thinks are just things I do, because my pastor tells me to, but his life has never been changed by any of it, if fact, he is progressively getting more and more hardened leading to increasing imorality.

Jimmy is practicing sin by walking in darkness.

 

[UnderGrace]

The verbs we are discussing in 1 John, (practice sin or practice righteousness) are denoting continuous, progressive, linear action. It does not mean a few instances of righteousness or conversely of sin here or there (as exceptions to the rule), but rather a continuing, durative, ititerative, progressive, pattern, ie (as a lifestyle) of one or the other.

You can do the same with agapeo, love. Not merely love here or there, but rather a lifestyle of loving, not only in word, but also in deed and truth

SO a believer may fall into sin, but will not MAKE HIS OR HER HOME THERE, (ie practice sin in a continuous, linear, progressive, sense. Just as a sheep may fall in the mud, but not desire to remain there, whereas a pig will gleefully wallow there.)

Like saying "Sheep do not continue in the mud, do not practice mud wallowing, whereas pigs do"

All based on nature, and therefore DESCRIPTIVE.

A sheep is not a sheep because it does not wallow in mud, it does not wallow in mud because it is a sheep.

I do not for one minute accept your interpretation of John, it is not at all about the "perseverance" of the saints, a word that appears nowhere in the text.

Right.......... "may fall into sin but not make sin his home"....what exactly does that even mean...do you have number of days for this or which sin it is?

Ultimately this is what you are arguing...

accept eternal security, yet thinks that someone who practices “habitual sin” is going to hell and therefore will probably conclude that such person was never saved to begin with.

So, one may believe in eternal security, but ultimately one is holding to salvation by works, because that is what salvation "looks like"

 

[UnderGrace]

Two scenarios of "practicing righteousness" and "practicing sin". Of course, there are other variations, but just for a general idea of basically what the phrases mean.


Billy received Jesus as Saviour 2 years ago. He trusts Jesus fully for his salvation, and rests in the fact that His sins are forgiven. Billy loves Jesus, and wants to serve Him out of nothing but love and gratitude. Billy is not sinless, but he is quick to confess His sins to God and wants to grow in obedience, not out of duty, but out of love and a desire to bear fruit for God. He doesn't want to sin because he loves God and he doesnt want people to stumble because of him, but he realizes he is far from perfect. But he is growing...

Billy is practicing righteousness by walking in the Light.

Jimmy goes to church every Sunday, is careful to read three chapters of Bible a day, and faithfully gives his tithe. He does all the external things associated with christianity, but has never received the New Birth. Jimmy lives a double life, on the outside, he looks like the ideal Christian, but behind the scenes, he is not above telling a "little lie" when convenient, and likes to play and dabble in immorality, saying "it's OK, I can just confess it later and God will forgive me." Jimmy has no interest in growing, because he has never been saved in the first place. Reading the Bible and going to church and praying are things that he thinks are just things I do, because my pastor tells me to, but his life has never been changed by any of it, if fact, he is progressively getting more and more hardened leading to increasing imorality.

Jimmy is practicing sin by walking in darkness.

This is not what John is teaching, he is speaking to our two natures, the flesh and the "righteousness of Christ"...it is quite simple actually.

 

[VCO]

Whether verb or noun we do not work on perfecting ourselves, that is the point, Jesus is the source we draw from.

All I am trying to do is get you to see that you do not work for what you already have.... we do not learn/practice to sin less and less.

...we are sinless in Christ....John is boldly proclaiming we are born of God, our new nature is pure and holy, live in it and express it outward every day and let it dominate our experience and lives!!

How you interpret scripture is closer to @FollowHisSteps and Mr. VCO that is no fun and not what God wants for us.

That is Not what Paul teaches, I will believe Paul.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27 (HCSB)
24 Don’t you know that the runners in a stadium all race, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way to win the prize.
25 Now everyone who competes exercises self-control in everything. However, they do it to receive a crown that will fade away, but we a crown that will never fade away.
26 Therefore I do not run like one who runs aimlessly or box like one beating the air.
27 Instead, I discipline my body and bring it under strict control, so that after preaching to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Ephesians 4:11-15 (HCSB)
11 And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
12 for the training of the saints in the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ,
13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, ⌊growing⌋ into a mature man with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness.
14 Then we will no longer be little children, tossed by the waves and blown around by every wind of teaching, by human cunning with cleverness in the techniques of deceit.
15 But speaking the truth in love, let us grow in every way into Him who is the head—Christ.

 

[Macabeus]

I do not for one minute accept your interpretation of John, it is not at all about the "perseverance" of the saints, a word that appears nowhere in the text.

Right.......... "may fall into sin but not make sin his home"....what exactly does that even mean...do you have number of days for this or which sin it is?

Ultimately this is what you are arguing...

accept eternal security, yet thinks that someone who practices “habitual sin” is going to hell and therefore will probably conclude that such person was never saved to begin with.

So, one may believe in eternal security, but ultimately one is holding to salvation by works, because that is what salvation "looks like"

As I said, I never judge whether other people are saved or not. That is a strawman argument on your part. If you had read 1 John with understanding, you would know that the purpose is NOT to know if Jimmy Smits is saved, but that WE KNOW that WE have eternal life.

And which "word" is not found in the Bible? Perserverance or saints? Because both are in MY Bible. What translation are you using?

Is the doctrine of perserverance of the saints taught in scripture? Yes. Hebrews 3:6 says that those who are Christ's house will perservere

Hebrews 3:6- 6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, (saints)if we hold fast (perserverance) the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Note- this is a descriptive statement, (we perservere because we are Christ's house) not prescriptive. Which is what the doctrine of perserverance teaches, those who are Christ's will hold fast the confidence of the hope to the end)

I didn't say it. The writer of Hebrews did

 

[UnderGrace]

That is Not what Paul teaches, I will believe Paul.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27 (HCSB)
24 Don’t you know that the runners in a stadium all race, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way to win the prize.
25 Now everyone who competes exercises self-control in everything. However, they do it to receive a crown that will fade away, but we a crown that will never fade away.
26 Therefore I do not run like one who runs aimlessly or box like one beating the air.
27 Instead, I discipline my body and bring it under strict control, so that after preaching to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Ephesians 4:11-15 (HCSB)
11 And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
12 for the training of the saints in the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ,
13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, ⌊growing⌋ into a mature man with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness.
14 Then we will no longer be little children, tossed by the waves and blown around by every wind of teaching, by human cunning with cleverness in the techniques of deceit.
15 But speaking the truth in love, let us grow in every way into Him who is the head—Christ.

All this is about walking "in the Spirit of Christ Jesus" not about perfecting ourselves.

 

[Macabeus]

This is not what John is teaching, he is speaking to our two natures, the flesh and the "righteousness of Christ"...it is quite simple actually.

Where does John mention two natures, one that practices sin and one that practices righteousness, similtaneously, continuously, and progressively in the believer? You either walk in light or darkness. it is not one half of you walking in light and one half walking in darkness, one half of you practicing sin and one half of you practicing righteousness, it is YOU following after ONE OR THE OTHER.

 

[UnderGrace]

As I said, I never judge whether other people are saved or not. That is a strawman argument on your part. If you had read 1 John with understanding, you would know that the purpose is NOT to know if Jimmy Smits is saved, but that WE KNOW that WE have eternal life.

And which "word" is not found in the Bible? Perserverance or saints? Because both are in MY Bible. What translation are you using?

Is the doctrine of perserverance of the saints taught in scripture? Yes. Hebrews 3:6 says that those who are Christ's house will perservere

Hebrews 3:6- 6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, (saints)if we hold fast (perserverance) the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Note- this is a descriptive statement, (we perservere because we are Christ's house) not prescriptive. Which is what the doctrine of perserverance teaches, those who are Christ's will hold fast the confidence of the hope to the end)

I didn't say it. The writer of Hebrews did

And what if they do not??

This is a faulty dogma, pressure, guilt sorrow and condemnation, I am thankful that people are being released from its chains daily!!

 

[Macabeus]

All this is about walking "in the Spirit of Christ Jesus" not about perfecting ourselves.

Yes, AND IF you walk in the Spirit, you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

You choose one or the other. You cannot walk with one foot in darkness and one foot in Light. You are choosing one or the other. Just like Billy and Jimmy in post 101,283

 

[UnderGrace]

Where does John mention two natures, one that practices sin and one that practices righteousness, similtaneously, continuously, and progressively in the believer? You either walk in light or darkness. it is not one half of you walking in light and one half walking in darkness, one half of you practicing sin and one half of you practicing righteousness, it is YOU following after ONE OR THE OTHER.

Tomorrow

 

[Macabeus]

And what if they do not??

This is a faulty dogma, pressure, guilt sorrow and condemnation, I am thankful that people are being released from its chains daily!!

What if they do not? That would mean Hebrews 3:6 is wrong. I'm not going there.

Why ask unscriptural questions. The Scriptures say

a. Jesus will not lose any of His sheep
b. God will complete the work that He began in us.
c. We are Christ's house if we hold fast the confidence.
d. Everyone who has this hope purifies Himself.
e. Everyone who is born of God overcomes the world.
f. All who He predestined, He will justify, sanctify, and glorify.

we may fall seven times or seventy times seven, but God is there to pick us up.

 

[theanointedwinner]

I can safely assume that everyone want to be more and more Christ like

And I believe that if he can choose the route that requires less effort, we will choose the easier route right?

And applying energy wisely is a part of "being a good steward" about it

So, what is the most effortless possible method of sanctification, and what is stopping us right now?

 

[Macabeus]

Yes, AND IF you walk in the Spirit, you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

You choose one or the other. You cannot walk with one foot in darkness and one foot in Light. You are choosing one or the other. Just like Billy and Jimmy in post 101,283

All this is about walking "in the Spirit of Christ Jesus" not about perfecting ourselves.

If you are walking in the Spirit, you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. You will starve it. You have already hung it on a cross if you are Christ's. LEAVE IT THERE.

We do not perfect ourselves. SANCTIFICATION is by grace through faith, same as justification. Not of works. (Acts 26:18)

 

[Macabeus]

"theanointedwinner, post: 3944672, member: 277112"]I can safely assume that everyone want to be more and more Christ like

If a person has the Spirit of Christ, yes that will be their desire

And I believe that if he can choose the route that requires less effort, we will choose the easier route right?

We should only be concerned with God's way, not the easier or harder way. Not my will, but thine be done, Jesus said.

And applying energy wisely is a part of "being a good steward" about it

The Bible says to strive, but God provides the 'energy"

So, what is the most effortless possible method of sanctification,

Sanctification is accomplished by God through faith in those who sanctify Jesus as Holy in their hearts.

and what is stopping us right now?

Usually unbelief, love of sin, laziness, love of the world, or ignoring the Word. But all of these are rooted in the first. General unbelief.

 

[Macabeus]

And what if they do not??

This is a faulty dogma, pressure, guilt sorrow and condemnation, I am thankful that people are being released from its chains daily!!

I am under no pressure, guilt, sorrow, or condemnation. I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that HE is able to KEEP that which I've committed unto Him against that day. I have been justified by Christ's death, and He is able to save me COMPLETELY because He ever lives to make intercession for me in His endless life and intercession. God is able to complete what He started in us.

 

[UnderGrace]

I am under no pressure, guilt, sorrow, or condemnation. I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that HE is able to KEEP that which I've committed unto Him against that day. I have been justified by Christ's death, and He is able to save me COMPLETELY because He ever lives to make intercession for me in His endless life and intercession. God is able to complete what He started in us.

Never said otherwise ....when works prove our salvation that is a problem or sin disproves our salvation that is a problem.

 

[Macabeus]

And what if they do not??

This is a faulty dogma, pressure, guilt sorrow and condemnation, I am thankful that people are being released from its chains daily!!

Hebrews 3:6 says that those who are Christ's will hold fast. That's all I need to know.

How is trusting Christ to keep you putting pressure on yourself? It does not. Like a good man once said, we have a two fisted promise. We are held firm in Christ's Hand, and we are held firm in the Father's hand.

How does the promise of 1 John 1:9-2:2 produce guilt? It does not.

How does forgiveness and cleansing produce guilt? It does not.

How does Christ's intercession produce condemnation? It does not.

I will say that sorrow can be a good thing in certain situations. James 4:9; 2 Corinthians 7:9. Maybe todays church needs more of it (sorrow)

Maybe we are suffering a spiritual draught for lack of tears.

James 4:9- Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.

 

[Macabeus]

Never said otherwise ....when works prove our salvation that is a problem or sin disproves our salvation that is a problem.

I will not say that works prove our salvation, but I will agree with John when he says...

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not hisbrother abideth in death.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

It does not say this is how I will know about you or anyone else, or how you will know about me. It is talking about how I can KNOW that I know Him, how I can know that I have passed from death to life, and how I can know if I am of the truth, and how you can know the same things about yourself. These all go well with texts about EXAMINING OURSELVES, not so much each other.