Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[gb9]

here is the thing that the judeaizers ignore- the Law was a COVENANT made with God and Israel at Sinai .

at the end of Leviticus, God mentions to Moses the covenant made with the fathers of those who came out of Egypt .

so, unless you can trace your ancestry back to those who crossed the red sea, then that covenant was not made with you.

 

[Grandpa]

If you were sincere about following Jesus, you would have to include Moses.

No, that is 100% incorrect. You have a choice.

You can follow Moses.

Or you can follow the Lord Jesus.

You can't rest and work simultaneously. If you work then you make a mockery of rest. If you rest then you upset those who work.

If the Lord Jesus can't give you rest there is no way anyone on Christian Chat will be able to do it.

 

[Marcelo]

If Jesus was speaking of a camel going through the eye of a sewing needle, He meant it was impossible for a wealthy man to be saved, for never would a camel do the impossible. Yet, Phillip converted the wealthy Eunuch from Egypt, while would you suppose Abraham and Job would enter hell because they were very wealthy, along with King David, Solomon, Hezekiah, et al.?

In those days large cities had great walls with some very narrow, low slots for passage of people and goods without having to open a major gate for a camel, while preventing an enemy force from entering in numbers and articles of war. You learn of that when visiting Jerusalem and other Israeli cities. The camel's burden had to be taken off, put the camel on it's knees, let it through, then put the burden back on it. The idea was used to indicate how wealthy men usually would and still often refuse or regret to depart with their treasures a little time even if it meant not being allowed into the city. Difficult, painful, but not impossible.

I gave you a LIKE because you're helping me prove my point -- you gave two opposite examples of how Bible readers interpret Mt 19:24. Some readers interpret it correctly (impossible or at least almost surely impossible) and others follow "theologians" who are always trying to explain away why Christians don't have to do what Christ told them to do (they say "eye of a needle" was a narrow slot in the city wall).

Still other Christians believe other "theologians" who say that CAMEL means ROPE, but CAMEL in Greek is spelled CAMELOS and ROPE is spelled CAMILOS (there is a difference).

Wouldn't it be easier to admit that the earthly Jesus was just expounding the law of Moses, and that we are now under a new covenant and are supposed to follow the risen Jesus who spoke to us through the apostle Paul?

 

[Chester]

Ok, so it is faith + grace.

Now take a look at some of the things Jesus said concerning salvation:

> To the young rich ruler Jesus said: "Keep the commandments";

> To His disciples: "Your justice must exceed the one of the Pharisees"; "obey the scribes and the Pharisees"; "sell all you have and give alms";

> To the one who said “I will follow you”, Jesus answered: “Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head”;

> Anyone who says, “You fool! will be in danger of the fire of hell;

> It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God;

> To those who once in a lifetime fail to help the needy:

.....44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and
.....did not help you?’
.....45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
.....46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Do you still think Jesus and Paul preached the exact same thing?

No it is not "faith + grace" -- It is "by grace, through faith" - Eph. 2:8

Those two are not the same thing.

 

[PS]

I gave you a LIKE because you're helping me prove my point -- you gave two opposite examples of how Bible readers interpret Mt 19:24. Some readers interpret it correctly (impossible or at least almost surely impossible) and others follow "theologians" who are always trying to explain away why Christians don't have to do what Christ told them to do (they say "eye of a needle" was a narrow slot in the city wall).

Still other Christians believe other "theologians" who say that CAMEL means ROPE, but CAMEL in Greek is spelled CAMELOS and ROPE is spelled CAMILOS (there is a difference).

Wouldn't it be easier to admit that the earthly Jesus was just expounding the law of Moses, and that we are now under a new covenant and are supposed to follow the risen Jesus who spoke to us through the apostle Paul?

Jesus is the gate or the door if you prefer:
I am the gate, If anyone enters through me, he will be saved. He will come in and go out and find pasture. (Joh 10:9 ISV)

He is the way the truth and the life and although the path may be difficult it is by way of Jesus that we enter into His Heavenly Kingdom, of whom He is King.

Jesus was teaching Christianity saying follow me, the same as Paul. So why don't you get it right instead of saying "Jesus was just expounding the Law of Moses?"

By the way, Paul referred to the Old Testament in his teaching as well.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

I gave you a LIKE because you're helping me prove my point -- you gave two opposite examples of how Bible readers interpret Mt 19:24. Some readers interpret it correctly (impossible or at least almost surely impossible) and others follow "theologians" who are always trying to explain away why Christians don't have to do what Christ told them to do (they say "eye of a needle" was a narrow slot in the city wall).

Still other Christians believe other "theologians" who say that CAMEL means ROPE, but CAMEL in Greek is spelled CAMELOS and ROPE is spelled CAMILOS (there is a difference).

Wouldn't it be easier to admit that the earthly Jesus was just expounding the law of Moses, and that we are now under a new covenant and are supposed to follow the risen Jesus who spoke to us through the apostle Paul?

The "earthly" Jesus didn't go about preaching Moses. That message was already preached to Israel, and it was already deeply received and comprehended. The nation was practicing the Law. Moses, though, hardly covered a verse of Jesus' sermon on the mount, for instance.
Matthew 9:35 (KJV)
35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

Israel witnessed such healing by way of a few prophets, but not on the scale Jesus accomplished. He did far more miracles than all the prophets together. The godpel Jesus preached drew the ire of the religious leaders, while Moses offended none since that was their way of life.

Jesus mentioned the words of Moses when appropriate, but His message was Good news of the Kingdom of Heaven, which the prophets, after the Law was given in the Torah, prophesied was coming. Jesus brought it, whether many comprehended it or not. His congregation (His body the Church) received the understanding after His resurrection. Those were all Jews for the first 7 years until Peter converted Cornelius. Preaching Moses didn't contribute to that, like you shouldn't have to teach college freshmen their ABC's. They moved on from Moses into the Kingdom, leaving weak religion to the unbelieving Jews.

 

[Endoscopy]

I'm not a law-keeper, but I still haven't found a single piece of evidence -- in the Gospels -- that Jesus ever told us to stop keeping the Law. Should we rely solely on what Paul said?

I rely on what Jesus said.

Matthew 5 NIV
The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

AMPC
17 Do not think that I have come to do away with or undo the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to do away with or undo but to complete and fulfill them.
18 For truly I tell you, until the sky and earth pass away and perish, not one smallest letter nor one little hook [identifying certain Hebrew letters] will pass from the Law until all things [it foreshadows] are accomplished

 

[Marcelo]

Jesus is the gate or the door if you prefer:
I am the gate, If anyone enters through me, he will be saved. He will come in and go out and find pasture. (Joh 10:9 ISV)

He is the way the truth and the life and although the path may be difficult it is by way of Jesus that we enter into His Heavenly Kingdom, of whom He is King.

Jesus was teaching Christianity saying follow me, the same as Paul. So why don't you get it right instead of saying "Jesus was just expounding the Law of Moses?"

By the way, Paul referred to the Old Testament in his teaching as well.

Do you obey the scribes and the Pharisees as the earthly Jesus commanded?

Have you already given away your property as the earthly Jesus commanded?

Do you offer sacrifices as the earthly Jesus commanded?

Do you keep the Sabbath as the earthly Jesus taught us through His example?

Do you keep all the commandments as the earthly Jesus commanded?

Or do you believe salvation is by grace through faith according to the risen Jesus, who spoke to us through Paul?

 

[Endoscopy]

I rely on what Jesus said.

Matthew 5 NIV
The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

AMPC
17 Do not think that I have come to do away with or undo the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to do away with or undo but to complete and fulfill them.
18 For truly I tell you, until the sky and earth pass away and perish, not one smallest letter nor one little hook [identifying certain Hebrew letters] will pass from the Law until all things [it foreshadows] are accomplished

5 minute rule doesn't work.

We are unable to keep the law. Only Jesus never broke the law. Thus he was the Unblemished Lamb of God. As such was the perfect sacrifice for our sins.
Grace is a free gift of God.
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Our sins are placed on Jesus on the cross.

 

[Dino246]

If someone misunderstands your post, why not state your position with more clarity instead of just accusing. Your words are: "I am not subject to the Law is cate" "It's about whether we as Christians are under the Law.". If you mean you are not under the law for God's acceptance of your righteousness, I agree completely, me too. We are under Christ for that. If you mean that you now live a life without law in it, you are also in trouble. What do you mean by this?

In post #302, I asked you directly to clarify a sentence of yours from post #301 that didn't make sense to me. There was no "misunderstanding"; there was "no understanding".

As of this point, you have not even acknowledged my request for clarification, let alone provided any. So, kindly take your own medicine first before you hand it to me.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

> To those who once in a lifetime fail to help the needy:

.....44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and
.....did not help you?’
.....45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
.....46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Do you still think Jesus and Paul preached the exact same thing?

Yes. Jesus was teaching in
Matthew 25:31-34 (KJV)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

how at the judgment He will have the sheep nations that helped Israel in any way on one side, and all the opposing nations (antisemite "goats") on the other. That is not a warning for everyone to support anyone or go to hell. Context!

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem! Send an offering to a Christian ministry over there, one that has a physical address (church) devoted to reaching Israel for Christ, doing many mighty works. You have a promise of blessing from the Lord, but even more importantly support our own government leaders who favor Israel. Antisemitic leaders can only cause curses for the USA, risking us to be labelled goats.

 

[PS]

Do you obey the scribes and the Pharisees as the earthly Jesus commanded?

Have you already given away your property as the earthly Jesus commanded?

Do you offer sacrifices as the earthly Jesus commanded?

Do you keep the Sabbath as the earthly Jesus taught us through His example?

Do you keep all the commandments as the earthly Jesus commanded?

Or do you believe salvation is by grace through faith according to the risen Jesus, who spoke to us through Paul?

We are talking about your particular cultist axe you are grinding.

You appear unable to offer adequate support.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

This is the essence of your error: you think that because we are free in Christ and led by the Spirit, that we think we can carry on sinning.

That's fallacious thinking, and it's time you stopped asserting it. You have NO evidence to support it.

It's fallacious at least in the fact that the New Testament word of God very often prohibits continuation of a life of deliberate sin. It teaches that those who will not give up habitual, deliberate sin have Satan as their spiritual father. We are to pray we won't bed led by any entity into temptation that if yielded to results in sin. Jesus preached "repent and believe His gospel. That means deliberate action on His new commandments, issued by Him, the apostles, the Holy Spirit directly confirming, and repeatedly taught by our ministers who are gifted of God to preach and teach, shepherding the congregation towards lives of holiness, being equipped to "perfection", which means made complete in Christ. It's a lifelong journey to perfection, made possible by Christ in us, our hope of glory.

 

[posthuman]

Did anyone, other than Jesus, ever keep the law of Moses? If not, what makes you think you should try to be the first?

Abijah & Elizabeth were called 'righteous in the sight of the law' ((Luke 1:5-6))
Paul says 'with regard to the righteousness found in the law' he was 'blameless' ((Philippians 3:4-6))

does this mean though, that they were completely sinless, and never crossed any commandment?
how do we define 'keep the law' -- what would be the right way to define it?
the law includes sacrifices for sin and guilt. i think, then, that even if you were guilty of sin under the law, so long as you made the atonement the law demanded, you could still be called 'righteous' or 'blameless' insofar as the law is concerned, tho not sinless, not perfect.

 

[posthuman]

Abijah & Elizabeth were called 'righteous in the sight of the law' ((Luke 1:5-6))
Paul says 'with regard to the righteousness found in the law' he was 'blameless' ((Philippians 3:4-6))

does this mean though, that they were completely sinless, and never crossed any commandment?
how do we define 'keep the law' -- what would be the right way to define it?
the law includes sacrifices for sin and guilt. i think, then, that even if you were guilty of sin under the law, so long as you made the atonement the law demanded, you could still be called 'righteous' or 'blameless' insofar as the law is concerned, tho not sinless, not perfect.

for example you could steal something, and then repay including the penalty ((e.g. Exodus 22:1)). in the sight of the law you'd be 'blameless' because you had satisfied the penalty -- but you'd still be a thief.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Do you obey the scribes and the Pharisees as the earthly Jesus commanded?

Have you already given away your property as the earthly Jesus commanded?

Do you offer sacrifices as the earthly Jesus commanded?

Do you keep the Sabbath as the earthly Jesus taught us through His example?

Do you keep all the commandments as the earthly Jesus commanded?

Or do you believe salvation is by grace through faith according to the risen Jesus, who spoke to us through Paul?

1. You find no evidence of anything we say! Jesus gave the evidence you need to comprehend in
John 16:12-16 (KJV)
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

That is text easy enough for a 3rd grade child to comprehend. That came to pass at Pentecost and beyond through men inspired of the Holy Spirit, as promised.

The inspired men left out keeping the Jewish sabbath since they realized Jesus became our sabbath rest. Sunday was selected as a good day to assemble. There are no requirements for Gentile believers to keep any Jewish observance. That's part of what Jesus promised would be revealed post resurrection.

There is no further need for any blood sacrifice, since the Father accepted that of Jesus once and for all. Jesus didn't command people to go sacrifice, though as a Jew in good standing had to take part in that, else be disqualified and shamed.

Jesus preached to Jews, by that I mean Israelites of various tribes. He could never neglect a single Mosaic commandment while alive in the flesh. He died to the Law and arose free from it. In doing so He left the old Law intact, as that was all the lost House of Israel had left. It couldn't save a soul then, and still can't, even if keeping it all. Keeping the Law was a daily exercise, at best covering one's past sins, but not washing them away. Only the blood of Jesus can do that. Israel rejected Him, chose Barabus the thief. Their spiritual champion has been the thief all along, like the Philistines had Goliath. He died too. All that's left is commentary from those rebellious scribes and Pharisees who helped form a faux religion never laid out by Moses. They should have accepted the destruction of the Temple as a great sign they missed the Messiah. The earlier sign in the Temple was the veil was rent when Jesus died. That was six inches thick of hides and other materials an armor piercing bullet might not have penetrated. Torn in two. By God or angels.

You should believe what Jesus said and trust His appointed recorders who received the latest word from God through the Holy Spirit, as promised to them. None of the NT authors disagreed with each other except the one time Paul corrected Peter over his hypocritical behavior with whichever group he visited with, the Jews or the Gentiles. Since Peter didn't reject the correction it wasn't technically a disagreement, and moved on to eventually commend Paul, though sometimes hard to understand. He admonished that people who wrestle of those words do so to their own destruction. None of the New Testament writers disagreed with what was recorded of Jesus.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Abijah & Elizabeth were called 'righteous in the sight of the law' ((Luke 1:5-6))
Paul says 'with regard to the righteousness found in the law' he was 'blameless' ((Philippians 3:4-6))

does this mean though, that they were completely sinless, and never crossed any commandment?
how do we define 'keep the law' -- what would be the right way to define it?
the law includes sacrifices for sin and guilt. i think, then, that even if you were guilty of sin under the law, so long as you made the atonement the law demanded, you could still be called 'righteous' or 'blameless' insofar as the law is concerned, tho not sinless, not perfect.

The benefits lasted a year from Passover to Passover. What little righteousness any Jew obtained from the Law was finite, not eternal. If anyone could have eternal salvation through the Law, then Jesus died in vain. We know none were saved through the Law. Jesus is the only way.

 

[Blik]

Jesu

No, that is 100% incorrect. You have a choice.

You can follow Moses.

Or you can follow the Lord Jesus.

You can't rest and work simultaneously. If you work then you make a mockery of rest. If you rest then you upset those who work.

If the Lord Jesus can't give you rest there is no way anyone on Christian Chat will be able to do it.

Moses followed God, Jesus followed God. We listen to what they have to say to reach God.

 

[Blik]

In post #302, I asked you directly to clarify a sentence of yours from post #301 that didn't make sense to me. There was no "misunderstanding"; there was "no understanding".

As of this point, you have not even acknowledged my request for clarification, let alone provided any. So, kindly take your own medicine first before you hand it to me.

You ask for response to this that you said “This sentence doesn't make sense to me: "If you accept Christ within you then your will has given all sin over to Him for forgiveness and you do not will to not follow the law, and that law is the spirit of the law." Perhaps you could rephrase it?”

I didn’t respond to this directly as I felt you only wanted to bait me. Here is a response:

First, in this scene the person has gone to Christ for forgiveness of sins. Christ has paid for our sins with His death, so they are gone from this person’s life and he is righteous now. The question is how this righteous person is to live from this moment on. Paul explains in Romans when Paul tells us that he finds himself doing what he does not want to do, Paul tells us that his will to do is to be righteous even though his flesh pulls him to sin. That is what God wants from us when Christ makes us a righteous person free of sin, that we do not want to sin any longer.

The law defines sin, so we must learn God’s law so that we can set our will to avoid sin.

 

[Endoscopy]

Do you obey the scribes and the Pharisees as the earthly Jesus commanded?

Have you already given away your property as the earthly Jesus commanded?

Do you offer sacrifices as the earthly Jesus commanded?

Do you keep the Sabbath as the earthly Jesus taught us through His example?

Do you keep all the commandments as the earthly Jesus commanded?

Or do you believe salvation is by grace through faith according to the risen Jesus, who spoke to us through Paul?

ROFL
Your theology is flawed. It is we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. This because we are unable to obey all of the 613 laws in the Torah!!