Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[Blik]

The Torah CANNOT be obeyed. There is no temple (or tabernacle), no priesthood, no Levites. Galatians makes it clear that if we fail in the smallest matter, we have broken the entire Law, and are without salvation. It's not a buffet where we choose which ordinances we will follow; we either follow every ordinance perfectly, or we fail completely. There is no middle ground.

Those in Christ are NOT subject to the Law as given through Moses.

Jesus didn't die so that we can continue to follow Torah; it is for FREEDOM that Christ has set us free.

The word Torah means the first five books of scripture, in those books is outlined the principles of God you are preaching against. Don't be so dense about what scripture tells us that you come back with using animal sacrifice and food laws as the Torah, that would be truly misrepresenting the Lord and prove your lack of scripture understanding.

You are not preaching freedom at all, for freedom in Christ is freedom from the bondage of sin. It tells us in Luke 17: 1Jesus said to His disciples, “It is inevitable that stumbling blocks will come, but woe to the one through whom they come! 2It would be better for him to have a millstone hung around his neck and to be thrown into the sea than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. 3Watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.…

 

[Dino246]

The word Torah means the first five books of scripture, in those books is outlined the principles of God you are preaching against. Don't be so dense about what scripture tells us that you come back with using animal sacrifice and food laws as the Torah, that would be truly misrepresenting the Lord and prove your lack of scripture understanding.

You are not preaching freedom at all, for freedom in Christ is freedom from the bondage of sin. It tells us in Luke 17: 1Jesus said to His disciples, “It is inevitable that stumbling blocks will come, but woe to the one through whom they come! 2It would be better for him to have a millstone hung around his neck and to be thrown into the sea than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. 3Watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.…

Instead of taking a few words of mine and assuming thousands, how about you try to understand my overall message.

Whether I use ‘Torah’ ‘Law’, ‘commandments’ or another term, I mean the Law as given through Moses. Kindly don’t play semantics with me.

The Law is a unit: one entity. You either obey ALL of it or you fail completely at obeying it. Galatians 3:10 makes that clear.

Galatians 5:18 says this: “If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.” What part of that do you fail to understand?

 

[Word_Swordsman]

According to scripture the Lord does not think of humans as either Jew or Gentile, or as Black, yellow and white, but the Lord created our world for all with the same rain that falls on all, the same mountains for all, and the same laws for all. The only difference between Jew and gentile that the Lord tells us about is that He set the Jew apart to show all people about who the Lord is for them and he asks that we all respect them for that.

Here's who Jesus came to save until departing on the cross:
Matthew 15:24 (KJV)
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

His overall goal was to eventually offer salvation to the whole world, which happened at the cross and was ratified at the house of Cornelius, a Gentile Roman officer
That was a holy discrimination. For the next seven years no gentiles were members of His body the Church. Then the Holy Spirit allowed them by way of Peter's ministering to Cornelius. So in fact Jesus dramatically favored the Hebrew nation during His entire lifetime. When He returns He will not rule from America or Russia, but from Jerusalem, making sure every promise for Israel is fulfilled. We gentiles were spiritually grafted in.

As for laws from God, the scriptures plainly instruct that the Law of Moses (Torah) was for the House of Israel alone except for strangers who came to live with Israelites. Their peculiar law set them plainly very distinct and apart from Gentiles. Gentile nations were authorized to establish their own governments and languages beginning at the dispersion at the Tower of Babel.

The Jews are still bound to the Torah, to the exclusion of Gentiles other than those voluntarily submitting to that instead of the new Law of Liberty (James 1:25) of life in Christ Jesus. That law is the only perfect one, the Torah being faulty.

Hebrews 8:6-13 (KJV)
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

That isn't for the future, but has been in effect about 2000 years, called The Way of Christ, popularly named Christianity, with saved people (Christians) who are said of the Lord to be temples of the Holy Spirit, ambassadors for Christ. There is no authorized temple or other dwelling God will inhabit anywhere on this earth.

There is no need of a printed Torah for all the world to read or even know about, for the New Covenant scriptures continue the moral code of God and exceed those of the Torah. That's why the emphasis is upon world-wide distribution of the New Testament Bibles, as whole Bibles are far more expensive and not necessary for knowledge of salvation. No Gentile believers need know about the Passover or anything Moses, as our celebration is of Christ and things pertaining to Jesus. Knowledge of the old does have value to further understand why Jesus came and did what He did for all who would believe upon Him. Enough knowledge of the old is available from the book of Hebrews in the New Testament.

More reference:
Hebrews 7:11-25 (KJV)
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

The word Torah means the first five books of scripture, in those books is outlined the principles of God you are preaching against. Don't be so dense about what scripture tells us that you come back with using animal sacrifice and food laws as the Torah, that would be truly misrepresenting the Lord and prove your lack of scripture understanding.

You are not preaching freedom at all, for freedom in Christ is freedom from the bondage of sin. It tells us in Luke 17: 1Jesus said to His disciples, “It is inevitable that stumbling blocks will come, but woe to the one through whom they come! 2It would be better for him to have a millstone hung around his neck and to be thrown into the sea than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. 3Watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.…

The teachings of Christ and the Apostles were New Covenant and offended no "little ones", yet the old laws contained curses that offended all who dared violate the slightest commandment.

 

[Dino246]

It never ceases to amaze me how deceived believers who discard the Torah truly are, and call the true gospel of the Messiah "false", for the Messiah taught, "I did not come to abolish the Torah".

Who said anything about discarding the Torah? Don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The teachings of Christ and the Apostles were New Covenant and offended no "little ones", yet the old laws contained curses that offended all who dared violate the slightest commandment.

Those curses were warnings given by God.

If sinners were offended, then that was evidence that they were not obedient. Israel would receive many blessings for obedience, but curses for disobedience.

But this goes back to Eden. Adam was warned that he would bring a curse upon himself for disobedience. What he was not told is that he would also bring a curse upon the human race as well as all creation (Rom 5:12) since he would not have understood that.

Christ took the curse of the Law (all the curses) upon Himself when He was crucified and made an offering for sin. He was made SIN for us (He who knew no sin) and took away the sin of the world. But those curses are removed for only those who obey the Gospel.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The Messiah began to fulfill the Torah at his first coming, which included fulfilling its appointed times, which is why he died on the Passover, was resurrected on the first fruits of barley, and sent his anointing on Pentecost, yet at his second coming, he comes to fulfill the autumn appointed times of the Torah, such as the appointed time of trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Feast of Tabernacles, and ultimately, the Shabbath, which is the millennial Shabbath. That is why, "UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASSES AWAY, not one jot or one tittle will pass away from the Torah, UNTIL ALL IS FULFILLED". The entire Torah and its appointed times will be fulfilled by the Messiah at the completion of his millennial Shabbath, which is when heaven and earth will pass away, which includes the Torah of this earth, for a written Torah of sin and death will no longer be necessary in a new heavens and new earth where sin and death no longer exist. You err in your understanding of Torah, and have subsequently become lawless, thinking the Torah is no longer binding.

""UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASSES AWAY, not one jot or one tittle will pass away from the Torah"

Well, let me ask you this question: the above would infer that the law will be fulfilled perfectly, do you think that this will be accomplished by mankind? The reason that not one jot or tittle will pass away from the Torah is because of what Jesus already said which was "Don't think that I have come to abolish the Law and the prophets. I have not come to abolish, but to fulfill them." Therefore, it is because Jesus fulfilled every jot and tittle. If you think that mankind is going keep every jot and tittle, you are terribly mistaken in your understanding.

I repeat, as does the scriptures, that believers are not under the Mosaic law. We are not saved by obeying the ten commandments, or any of the 600 other laws, by keeping Sabbath's and not by any of our good works. We are saved by grace through faith and this not of our own selves. It is the gift of God, not by works so that no one can boast.

I would suggest that you go back and read Galatians and Romans, because no one will be saved by observing the law. And that because it puts salvation in your own hands by the keeping of the written code instead of trusting in Christ.

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin."

 

[cgneustar]

Who said anything about discarding the Torah? Don't put words in my mouth.

To say that a man no longer has to obey the Torah IS to discard the Torah.

 

[cgneustar]

""UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASSES AWAY, not one jot or one tittle will pass away from the Torah"

Well, let me ask you this question: the above would infer that the law will be fulfilled perfectly, do you think that this will be accomplished by mankind? The reason that not one jot or tittle will pass away from the Torah is because of what Jesus already said which was "Don't think that I have come to abolish the Law and the prophets. I have not come to abolish, but to fulfill them." Therefore, it is because Jesus fulfilled every jot and tittle. If you think that mankind is going keep every jot and tittle, you are terribly mistaken in your understanding.

I repeat, as does the scriptures, that believers are not under the Mosaic law. We are not saved by obeying the ten commandments, or any of the 600 other laws, by keeping Sabbath's and not by any of our good works. We are saved by grace through faith and this not of our own selves. It is the gift of God, not by works so that no one can boast.

I would suggest that you go back and read Galatians and Romans, because no one will be saved by observing the law. And that because it puts salvation in your own hands by the keeping of the written code instead of trusting in Christ.

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin."

Tell me, does "do not murder" and "a man shall not wear women's garments" apply to any person, yes or no?

 

[garee]

Do you believe in the rapture of the church, before the Tribulation begins? Or do you believe all of us in the church must also go thru that period of Jacob's trouble? Jeremiah 30:7

I think we are in the days the beginig of the use of the thousand years with the word metaphor thousand as a unknow or concealed .

God does not give exact numbers .He desire we walk by faith .

Numbering days or people is forbidden to those who walk by faith . David found out the hard way. We are not to be of the number day or people . Christ who has no form will come like a thief in the night just as in the days of Noah

We rather measure ourselves by the golden rule or reed of faith . not the measure of man what the eyes see.

2 Corinthians 10:12For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves (By which the eye see the temporal) among themselves, are not wise.

I think Jacob's trouble came as a result of the first century reformation. the temporal time period used as a parable. The shadows became substance.

The use of Jewish flesh to represent the flesh of mankind as a blessing (belief) or a curse (unbelief) had come to a end. The time period was restored government to the time of Judges. No outward representative God reining by faith in the heart of his children

A time never as before for a outward Jew .Some lost their hiding place .as a Jew who say they are Jew, have Jewish flesh but are not inward Jews as born again Christians .The new name our father named us.

 

[Dino246]

To say that a man no longer has to obey the Torah IS to discard the Torah.

Because I am in Christ, I am not under the Law. If you want to return to those weak and miserable principles, go ahead, but be prepared to do everything in the Law... not just what is convenient, and not just the so-called moral laws. You will be under a curse, as Paul tells us in Galatians.

 

[cgneustar]

Because I am in Christ, I am not under the Law. If you want to return to those weak and miserable principles, go ahead, but be prepared to do everything in the Law... not just what is convenient, and not just the so-called moral laws. You will be under a curse, as Paul tells us in Galatians.

If you still sin then you are still under Torah. You can only be freed from the Torah once you become freed from sin and are perfected by the anointing, and even then you will still end up obeying the Torah. There is never a point under the new covenant where the Torah is discarded, because the Torah reveals everything that is sin.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

What do we make of this? :

Hebrews 7 [blb] -

11 Then indeed, if perfection were by [means of] the Levitical priesthood (for upon it the people had received the Law) what need was there still for another priest to arise, according to the order of Melchizedek, and not to be named according to the order of Aaron? 12 For of the priesthood being changed, from necessity a change of Law also takes place.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

I gave up trying to find an earlier post concerning us not understanding "under the law". Here's a simple definition of that.

Romans 3:19 (KJV)
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Galatians 3:10
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Now here's a digest of what was done about it.
Galatians 3:23
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Read in between later

Galatians 4:4
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Notice the fulness of time is not when Jesus returns. It happened before Paul wrote that. So Jesus was sent "under the law. That ought to answer what "under the law" means. The purpose of that:

Galatians 4:5
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Skip on down for now, go back and read it all:
Galatians 5:18 (KJV)
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Jesus promised before the cross:
John 16:12-16 (KJV)
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

Notice Jesus said He would leave the rest of what He had to say up to the Holy Spirit. Well, the Spirit came at Pentecost, and Peter gave out the very beginning of that word from the Spirit, having just received the Holy Spirit along with the 120. Then came Paul, whom Peter endorsed, and other inspired authors.

It doesn't make a bit of sense for someone to say they only believe what Jesus is recorded to have spoken (words printed in red), and that men just made up that additional knowledge He promised would come after Him. If you still just believe the four gospels, then simply remain deceived and ignorant of all truth available to people also believing the entire NT canon.

Enough of the Judaizers here, OK? You folks have no standing among Christians, but are in grave error drawing anyone back under the Law and the curses of it. Stop sinning so greatly! Be filled with the Spirit, catch up to Jesus.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

If you still sin then you are still under Torah. You can only be freed from the Torah once you become freed from sin and are perfected by the anointing, and even then you will still end up obeying the Torah. There is never a point under the new covenant where the Torah is discarded, because the Torah reveals everything that is sin.

Jesus and the apostles, and the Holy Spirit today, all dealt with sin spendidly without need of Torah. I ask, which apostle directed believers to study and obey the Torah as though a Jew? Which called for circumcision of Gentile males? Which called for Gentiles to worship at the Temple in Jerusalem? What sacrifices were commanded them of the apostles? Thank you Lord Jesus for preserving the Torah so lost sinners, especially Jews, might be drawn to the New Covenant, the wonderful gospel (good news) of Jesus the Christ of God, freed from the curses and burdens of the Torah.

 

[cgneustar]

Jesus and the apostles, and the Holy Spirit today, all dealt with sin spendidly without need of Torah. I ask, which apostle directed believers to study and obey the Torah as though a Jew? Which called for circumcision of Gentile males? Which called for Gentiles to worship at the Temple in Jerusalem? What sacrifices were commanded them of the apostles? Thank you Lord Jesus for preserving the Torah so lost sinners, especially Jews, might be drawn to the New Covenant, the wonderful gospel (good news) of Jesus the Christ of God, freed from the curses and burdens of the Torah.

You cannot receive the anointing unless you obey the Torah, because the Torah is what reveals what sin is, through its commands. Why is this so difficult to understand?

 

[Word_Swordsman]

If you still sin then you are still under Torah. You can only be freed from the Torah once you become freed from sin and are perfected by the anointing, and even then you will still end up obeying the Torah. There is never a point under the new covenant where the Torah is discarded, because the Torah reveals everything that is sin.

So does the NT, duplicating the lessons of Torah, while holy days, observances and other requirements peculiar to Jews are not emphasized, Gentile believers totally excused except for the four carry overs in
Acts 15:19-20 (KJV)
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

You cannot receive the anointing unless you obey the Torah, because the Torah is what reveals what sin is, through its commands. Why is this so difficult to understand?

Knowledge of sin is not what determines receiving the Holy Spirit. That comes by belief, faith and yielding to Him. One then can begin having victory over sin.

 

[cgneustar]

So does the NT, duplicating the lessons of Torah, while holy days, observances and other requirements peculiar to Jews are not emphasized, Gentile believers totally excused except for the four carry overs in
Acts 15:19-20 (KJV)
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Observing appointed times of the Torah are not obligatory under the new covenant, because these were shadows of the Torah in the old covenant that are fulfilled differently under the new covenant, why else do you think the Messiah died on the exact hour and day of the Passover, if not to fulfill the Passover? That is why we are no longer required to sacrifice lambs every year on the Passover, because the Messiah, our Passover lamb has already been sacrificed. As such, all commands of the Torah that are not "shadows" of the Torah must still be obeyed plainly as given, such as "you shall not murder" and "a man shall not wear women's garments". Why is this so difficult to understand?

http://www.wisdomofgod.us/2019/02/14/the-torah-has-not-been-abolished/

 

[cgneustar]

Knowledge of sin is not what determines receiving the Holy Spirit. That comes by belief, faith and yielding to Him. One then can begin having victory over sin.

Obedience is what determines receiving the anointing of God, which is why it is written, "and so is the set-apart airflow, whom God has given TO THOSE WHO OBEY HIM.” Obedience to what? The commands of God written in his Torah, for the Torah is the "knowledge of sin", and that is why you must attain knowledge of sin through the knowledge of Torah to then know what you must stop doing. A man can not know that he must stop lending to his brother at interest unless he reads the command of the Torah that says, "you shall not lend to your brother at interest". This is obvious and not difficult to understand. This is why most of the world will perish at the second coming of the Messiah, because of lawlessness, because of rejection of the Law of God, which is the Torah, which defines EVERYTHING that is sin, which is why Paul calls the Torah "the embodiment of all knowledge and truth". This is why it is written, "hear oh earth, I am bringing destruction on this people because they have rejected my Torah". The great lie taught by the man of lawlessness is that the Torah has been abolished, hence the reason he is called the "man of lawlessness", and you people have swallowed up that lie bringing death upon yourselves.