Read this bible study regarding the Torah and why it must still be obeyed http://www.wisdomofgod.us/2019/02/14/the-torah-has-not-been-abolished/ .
Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?
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Moses is signified as the law giver. The first prophet moved to write the law by the finger of God. This is where I beleive the idea of "the law and prophets" (sola scriptura) as the two witnesses to the one perfect law
In that way not one jot or tile could be removed of the letter of the law it will serve its purpose to show all men are guilty till the end . It will not enter the promised land where a new kind of government the government of grace .the govern from the peace of God that surpasses our human understanding as the mystery of faith. The faith that heals and creates anew. Together the law seen (scripture ) and the mixing of faith make up one Perfect law spoken of David in a beautiful Psalm that preaches the gospel as to the suffering of Christ beforehand. working in those previously having no understanding, enlightening the eyes of their new hearts that does come when faith is mixed in what a person does see or hear.
Psalm 19:6-8 King James Version (KJV) His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. The law of the Lord "is perfect", converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord "is sure", making wise the simple. The statutes of the Lord "are right", rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord "is pure", enlightening the eyes.
And the membrane of the Lord brings to our mind the things he has taught us. Full service .
In that way not one jot or tile could be removed of the letter of the law it will serve its purpose to show all men are guilty till the end . It will not enter the promised land where a new kind of government the government of grace .the govern from the peace of God that surpasses our human understanding as the mystery of faith. The faith that heals and creates anew. Together the law seen (scripture ) and the mixing of faith make up one Perfect law spoken of David in a beautiful Psalm that preaches the gospel as to the suffering of Christ beforehand. working in those previously having no understanding, enlightening the eyes of their new hearts that does come when faith is mixed in what a person does see or hear.
Psalm 19:6-8 King James Version (KJV) His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. The law of the Lord "is perfect", converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord "is sure", making wise the simple. The statutes of the Lord "are right", rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord "is pure", enlightening the eyes.
And the membrane of the Lord brings to our mind the things he has taught us. Full service .
Good point! The gospel according to John is different from the other three -- it doesn't focus on Jesus' reinterpretation of the Law and it touches on salvation through faith.
Well, it's 11 pm my time -- I have to go to bed. I'll be back tomorrow, if God grants me another day of life.
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Jesus did not teach salvation by faith alone. He could not because he was preaching under the dispensation of law. Thus you get verses like
Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
In the Gospel of the Kingdom, it is Faith + Works for salvation.
Likewise after the church is raptured, it will be faith + works again under the GOK, that is why it will be much harder to be saved then, compared to now under the grace dispensation.
Rev 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
In the Gospel of the Kingdom, it is Faith + Works for salvation.
Likewise after the church is raptured, it will be faith + works again under the GOK, that is why it will be much harder to be saved then, compared to now under the grace dispensation.
Rev 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Yes we can keep by guarding with all of our new herats the faith of Jesus, the faith that works in us not of us. to both will and perform the good pleasure of our Faithful and True Creator
I am not getting the whole dispensational thing? Can you explain to me a time when it was not a period of grace that you call dispensation?
Christ's work of faith as a three day of his love as his reward produced the grace of God. Grace has nothing to do with time elements any more than his eternal rest "Sabbath" . Grace is not a time period. Its the reward of a finished work, faithfully performed …... imputed into our faithless bankrupt account as true riches .
The Son of God is signified as the lamb of God... slain for all those he gives his reward of faith as grace, to as many as the father gave him . This is from before the beginning of temporal time . Not in respect to the outward demonstration of Joel the promised pouring out His unseen Spirit on flesh in order to put away sin in the flesh. Something the written law could not do "it kills"
Romans 8:3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The perfect law, that seen that kills, mixed with the unseen, faith, revives in a hope of receiving our new bodies as the bride of Christ .
I am not getting the whole dispensational thing? Can you explain to me a time when it was not a period of grace that you call dispensation?
Christ's work of faith as a three day of his love as his reward produced the grace of God. Grace has nothing to do with time elements any more than his eternal rest "Sabbath" . Grace is not a time period. Its the reward of a finished work, faithfully performed …... imputed into our faithless bankrupt account as true riches .
The Son of God is signified as the lamb of God... slain for all those he gives his reward of faith as grace, to as many as the father gave him . This is from before the beginning of temporal time . Not in respect to the outward demonstration of Joel the promised pouring out His unseen Spirit on flesh in order to put away sin in the flesh. Something the written law could not do "it kills"
Romans 8:3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The perfect law, that seen that kills, mixed with the unseen, faith, revives in a hope of receiving our new bodies as the bride of Christ .
Hi Guojing, you are correct, Jesus was born/lived/did His teaching/works among those who were under the law. That said, what do we do with all of the verses and passages (that we find in the Gospels, and particularly in John) that teach salvation by faith/believing apart from works .. e.g. John 3:16, 18, 5:24, 20:31?
Also, do you believe that the Jews in the OT were saved by their works, or by believing + their works?
If so, we know that their principle means of atonement was the sacrificing of animals in the Temple (what the Law commanded them to do), but we also know that this was nothing more than a temporary measure and foreshadowing of the true and only efficacious Sacrifice that was yet to come/that would actually be salvific.
We know that, without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness .. Hebrews 9:22, but we also know that, the blood of bulls and goats saved no one .. Hebrews 10:4. So, God decided to withhold His judgment against the OT saints' sins until His Son's sacrifice was able to atone for them/satisfy His wrath against them (so while none of the OT saints were condemned when they died, none of them were actually saved either .. until 1. the Lord's righteous life and 2. His death on the Cross made their salvation possible .. e.g. Romans 5:8-10; cf 2 Corinthians 5:21.
This is how I understand it anyway. Please tell me how you understand things (if your understanding is different than mine is).
Thanks
~Deut
p.s. - doesn't Matthew 5:19 seem like it is talking to the elect (saints to be, if you will), not to saints and the reprobate (since it talks about the Kingdom of Heaven and positions that the saints will eventually find themselves in there)?
Also, do you believe that the Jews in the OT were saved by their works, or by believing + their works?
If so, we know that their principle means of atonement was the sacrificing of animals in the Temple (what the Law commanded them to do), but we also know that this was nothing more than a temporary measure and foreshadowing of the true and only efficacious Sacrifice that was yet to come/that would actually be salvific.
We know that, without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness .. Hebrews 9:22, but we also know that, the blood of bulls and goats saved no one .. Hebrews 10:4. So, God decided to withhold His judgment against the OT saints' sins until His Son's sacrifice was able to atone for them/satisfy His wrath against them (so while none of the OT saints were condemned when they died, none of them were actually saved either .. until 1. the Lord's righteous life and 2. His death on the Cross made their salvation possible .. e.g. Romans 5:8-10; cf 2 Corinthians 5:21.
This is how I understand it anyway. Please tell me how you understand things (if your understanding is different than mine is).
Thanks
~Deut
p.s. - doesn't Matthew 5:19 seem like it is talking to the elect (saints to be, if you will), not to saints and the reprobate (since it talks about the Kingdom of Heaven and positions that the saints will eventually find themselves in there)?
Romans 3
25 ... in His forbearance God passed over the sins previously committed.
.
According to scripture the Lord does not think of humans as either Jew or Gentile, or as Black, yellow and white, but the Lord created our world for all with the same rain that falls on all, the same mountains for all, and the same laws for all. The only difference between Jew and gentile that the Lord tells us about is that He set the Jew apart to show all people about who the Lord is for them and he asks that we all respect them for that.
The Torah CANNOT be obeyed. There is no temple (or tabernacle), no priesthood, no Levites. Galatians makes it clear that if we fail in the smallest matter, we have broken the entire Law, and are without salvation. It's not a buffet where we choose which ordinances we will follow; we either follow every ordinance perfectly, or we fail completely. There is no middle ground.
Those in Christ are NOT subject to the Law as given through Moses.
Jesus didn't die so that we can continue to follow Torah; it is for FREEDOM that Christ has set us free.
Those in Christ are NOT subject to the Law as given through Moses.
Jesus didn't die so that we can continue to follow Torah; it is for FREEDOM that Christ has set us free.
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Hello cgneustar,
It is important that you include the rest of that quote: "I did not come to abolish the Law, 'but to fulfill it,' i.e. to satisfy it. In other words, He wasn't coming to push the law aside as unimportant, but to meet its righteous requirements. To bring it to its end for those who believe in Him. Jesus did not fulfill the law to perpetuate it, that is, to keep it going.
Our focus for salvation and eternal life should rest solely on what Jesus did and not on our futile attempt to keep the law, which mankind has not and cannot keep.
Believers are under a different covenant, which is by trusting in Christ as the One who provided salvation for us, satisfying it completely.
That said, when any one brings in their own works as a requirement for salvation along side of Christ's sacrifice, it is the same as saying that His sacrifice was insufficient. To be clear, in our spirits salvation has been fulfilled by what Christ did, with no help from us.
The desire of the person who is in Christ, who is led by the Spirit, is to keep themselves from sin, to honor God with their bodies. Once a person received Christ, the process of sanctification began, which is the process of being made holy. As we continue from faith to faith we are being transformed into His image, which is a life-long process.
The believer is also zealous for good works, but not for the sake of salvation, but to glorify God. We are not working for our salvation, which is what is being attempted by the keeping of the law. Paul describes the difference between salvation by grace through vs. the keeping of the law between Israel and Gentile believers, as described below:
"What then will we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because their pursuit was not by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone"
I would also mention Cornelius (a Gentile centurion) and his household. While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit fell upon them and the whole household began to prophecy and speak in languages and that without keeping the law, performing any works, or being Baptized. Regarding this event, Peter said:
"God, who knows the heart, showed His approval by giving the Holy Spirit to them (Gentiles), just as He did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for He cleansed their hearts by faith.
"God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it."
When anyone teaches that the keeping of the law is necessary for salvation, they become false teachers, opposing the word of God. They would have us back under the curse that the law brings. Not that there is anything wrong with the law. For the law is righteous and Holy. The problem is that we can't keep it, which is why Jesus, as a human being, met the righteous requirements of the law on behalf of every believer.
Whomever the Son set free, is free indeed.
It is important that you include the rest of that quote: "I did not come to abolish the Law, 'but to fulfill it,' i.e. to satisfy it. In other words, He wasn't coming to push the law aside as unimportant, but to meet its righteous requirements. To bring it to its end for those who believe in Him. Jesus did not fulfill the law to perpetuate it, that is, to keep it going.
Our focus for salvation and eternal life should rest solely on what Jesus did and not on our futile attempt to keep the law, which mankind has not and cannot keep.
Believers are under a different covenant, which is by trusting in Christ as the One who provided salvation for us, satisfying it completely.
That said, when any one brings in their own works as a requirement for salvation along side of Christ's sacrifice, it is the same as saying that His sacrifice was insufficient. To be clear, in our spirits salvation has been fulfilled by what Christ did, with no help from us.
The desire of the person who is in Christ, who is led by the Spirit, is to keep themselves from sin, to honor God with their bodies. Once a person received Christ, the process of sanctification began, which is the process of being made holy. As we continue from faith to faith we are being transformed into His image, which is a life-long process.
The believer is also zealous for good works, but not for the sake of salvation, but to glorify God. We are not working for our salvation, which is what is being attempted by the keeping of the law. Paul describes the difference between salvation by grace through vs. the keeping of the law between Israel and Gentile believers, as described below:
"What then will we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because their pursuit was not by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone"
I would also mention Cornelius (a Gentile centurion) and his household. While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit fell upon them and the whole household began to prophecy and speak in languages and that without keeping the law, performing any works, or being Baptized. Regarding this event, Peter said:
"God, who knows the heart, showed His approval by giving the Holy Spirit to them (Gentiles), just as He did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for He cleansed their hearts by faith.
"God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it."
When anyone teaches that the keeping of the law is necessary for salvation, they become false teachers, opposing the word of God. They would have us back under the curse that the law brings. Not that there is anything wrong with the law. For the law is righteous and Holy. The problem is that we can't keep it, which is why Jesus, as a human being, met the righteous requirements of the law on behalf of every believer.
Whomever the Son set free, is free indeed.
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Hi Guojing, you are correct, Jesus was born/lived/did His teaching/works among those who were under the law. That said, what do we do with all of the verses and passages (that we find in the Gospels, and particularly in John) that teach salvation by faith/believing apart from works .. e.g. John 3:16, 18, 5:24, 20:31?
Also, do you believe that the Jews in the OT were saved by their works, or by believing + their works?
If so, we know that their principle means of atonement was the sacrificing of animals in the Temple (what the Law commanded them to do), but we also know that this was nothing more than a temporary measure and foreshadowing of the true and only efficacious Sacrifice that was yet to come/that would actually be salvific.
We know that, without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness .. Hebrews 9:22, but we also know that, the blood of bulls and goats saved no one .. Hebrews 10:4. So, God decided to withhold His judgment against the OT saints' sins until His Son's sacrifice was able to atone for them/satisfy His wrath against them (so while none of the OT saints were condemned when they died, none of them were actually saved either .. until 1. the Lord's righteous life and 2. His death on the Cross made their salvation possible .. e.g. Romans 5:8-10; cf 2 Corinthians 5:21.
This is how I understand it anyway. Please tell me how you understand things (if your understanding is different than mine is).
Thanks
~Deut
p.s. - doesn't Matthew 5:19 seem like it is talking to the elect (saints to be, if you will), not to saints and the reprobate (since it talks about the Kingdom of Heaven and positions that the saints will eventually find themselves in there)?
Also, do you believe that the Jews in the OT were saved by their works, or by believing + their works?
If so, we know that their principle means of atonement was the sacrificing of animals in the Temple (what the Law commanded them to do), but we also know that this was nothing more than a temporary measure and foreshadowing of the true and only efficacious Sacrifice that was yet to come/that would actually be salvific.
We know that, without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness .. Hebrews 9:22, but we also know that, the blood of bulls and goats saved no one .. Hebrews 10:4. So, God decided to withhold His judgment against the OT saints' sins until His Son's sacrifice was able to atone for them/satisfy His wrath against them (so while none of the OT saints were condemned when they died, none of them were actually saved either .. until 1. the Lord's righteous life and 2. His death on the Cross made their salvation possible .. e.g. Romans 5:8-10; cf 2 Corinthians 5:21.
This is how I understand it anyway. Please tell me how you understand things (if your understanding is different than mine is).
Thanks
~Deut
p.s. - doesn't Matthew 5:19 seem like it is talking to the elect (saints to be, if you will), not to saints and the reprobate (since it talks about the Kingdom of Heaven and positions that the saints will eventually find themselves in there)?
Romans 3
25 ... in His forbearance God passed over the sins previously committed.
.
What changes is how we displayed faith. While the principles of God never change, His dealings with men, do change from time to time.
This includes even the terms of acceptance with God. At first blood sacrifices were required (Gen. 4:3-5, Heb. 11:4); then, later, circumcision was added (Gen. 17:14); then obedience to the whole Mosaic law was demanded (Ex. 19:5, 6, Rom. 10:5); then "the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4, Acts 2:38)
and today it is
"TO HIM THAT WORKETH NOT, BUT BELIEVETH ON HIM THAT
JUSTIFIETH THE UNGODLY; HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR
RIGHTEOUSNESS” (Rom. 4:5).
During the age of the law, you exhibit faith by "obeying the law", all the Jews have to obey the law. It is true that all the saints of past ages were saved through the merits of Christ's shed blood, but not through their faith in that shed blood.
Those of past ages were expected to believe only what God had thus far revealed, or what He had revealed to them. In other words, they were saved simply because they trusted God and believed what He said. The full plan of salvation has since been unfolded, but the Scriptures make it crystal clear that these believers were saved without even understanding that Christ would die for them.
When God says, "Sacrifice an animal every time you sin," what will faith do? Just one thing: sacrifice an animal whenever you sin. We know, thanks to Hebrews, that such sacrifices are a mere shadow of the coming Jesus as the final Lamb, yet not one of their hearers would have interpreted this action to mean what it meant in Paul's Gospel: "Trust in the death of Christ for salvation."
But once the age of grace began, this is now what is required to show faith.
"BUT NOW the righteousness of God without the law is manifested" (Rom. 3:21);
"To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5)
"Being Justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24);
"In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7);
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (Tit. 3:5);
"Not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9)
When God now says this, what will faith do? Faith will say, "This is the most wonderful offer ever made by God to man. I cannot refuse it. I will trust Christ as my Savior and accept salvation as the free gift of God's grace."
Trust me when I tell you, everyone else from the Old Testament, King David, Noah, even the 4 Gospels guys such as Peter, James and John, will be very envious about you.
Their conditions for showing faith were not as simple as what we have to do, under the age of Grace.
Noah had to build an ark. (Hebrews 11:7)
Abel had to bring the correct sacrifice (Gen 4:4-5, Heb. 11:4)
Abraham had to believe, at his advanced years, that God would make him a father of many (Genesis 15:5-6)
Rahab had to hide the spies, at the risk of being caught and punished (Hebrews 11:31)
The point is that, by the time it reach us Gentiles, thanks to Jesus ushering the age of Grace, all we need to do, in order to display faith, is simply believing and speaking.
This is the most wonderful offer ever made by God to man. I cannot refuse it. I will trust Christ as my Savior and accept salvation as the free gift of God's grace."
We simply believe the message, that Jesus Christ has started and completed the work required for our salvation and we cease from our work and believe it. If we do that, we will receive the same righteousness as Abraham received (Gal 3:6-9). I especially like the NLT version.
6 In the same way, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” 7 The real children of Abraham, then, are those who put their faith in God. 8 What’s more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would make the Gentiles right in his sight because of their faith. God proclaimed this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, “All nations will be blessed through you.”[c] 9 So all who put their faith in Christ share the same blessing Abraham received because of his faith.
In Matthew 5:17-20 Jesus told the Jews they will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven, because quite simply their righteousness will never exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees.
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
The law stands, but what does it matter, because, and this is Jesus speaking in the 3rd person as he often did : -
God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (Joh 3:15-17 KJV)
The sins of the believer are forgiven and blotted out.
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
The law stands, but what does it matter, because, and this is Jesus speaking in the 3rd person as he often did : -
God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (Joh 3:15-17 KJV)
The sins of the believer are forgiven and blotted out.
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When the priesthood changed, which is when the Messiah became High Priest, there was also a change in the Torah. That is why the appointed times of the Torah are fulfilled differently under the new covenant, such as the Messiah dying on the day and hour of the Passover, his resurrection on the first fruits of barley, and him sending his anointing on the Feast of Weeks, which is Pentecost, which are all the appointed times of the spring. When he returns, he comes to fulfill the appointed times of the autumn, beginning with the appointed time of the trumpet blasts, which is why his coming is associated with the sound of trumpets. This is why although the Torah has not been abolished, the shadows of the Torah are no longer observed, such as appointed times, new moon, feasts, foods, and Shabbaths. Yet all other commands of the Torah must still be obeyed plainly as given. You err in your understanding of how the Torah must be obeyed under the new covenant, and have subsequently become lawless, which will result in destruction, hence "depart from me you workers of lawlessness".
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The Messiah began to fulfill the Torah at his first coming, which included fulfilling its appointed times, which is why he died on the Passover, was resurrected on the first fruits of barley, and sent his anointing on Pentecost, yet at his second coming, he comes to fulfill the autumn appointed times of the Torah, such as the appointed time of trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Feast of Tabernacles, and ultimately, the Shabbath, which is the millennial Shabbath. That is why, "UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASSES AWAY, not one jot or one tittle will pass away from the Torah, UNTIL ALL IS FULFILLED". The entire Torah and its appointed times will be fulfilled by the Messiah at the completion of his millennial Shabbath, which is when heaven and earth will pass away, which includes the Torah of this earth, for a written Torah of sin and death will no longer be necessary in a new heavens and new earth where sin and death no longer exist. You err in your understanding of Torah, and have subsequently become lawless, thinking the Torah is no longer binding.
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