OT vs NT Righteousness

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Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#41
Dec 6, 2016
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#41
John146 said:
And yet you can find no one who trusted in the cross for sins before it happened. Are you saying there are multiple ways unto salvation other than the cross?
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I am saying that as soon as Adam disobeyed and sin entered into our life the Lord gave us one way for salvation, it was the way then and it is the way now. That way is only through what Christ did to pay for our sins. In eternal time this was the way of salvation before Bethlehem, the sacrificial system was used as a symbol of Christ. People did not say that it is through Christ who was born in Bethlehem, they said I will do what God told me to do. It was based of faith, as our salvation is based on today. In people time,
Christ was not born yet but in God's eternal time it is Christ who always was the key to our salvation. It did not work as well, it was fulfilled when Christ was crucified.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#42
Jan 13, 2016
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#42
Nehemiah6 said:
Those who were in Abraham's Bosom were the Old Testament saints. They were justified by grace through faith, just like Abraham. Hence in Abraham's bosom. But they were perfected in Heaven after the resurrection of Christ, when He took captivity captive, and brought them all with Him to the New Jerusalem (Heb 11 and 12).
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What if they did not walk in all the commands and ordinances of the law?

Justified by faith in what?
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#43
Jan 13, 2016
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#43
Blik said:
I am saying that as soon as Adam disobeyed and sin entered into our life the Lord gave us one way for salvation, it was the way then and it is the way now. That way is only through what Christ did to pay for our sins. In eternal time this was the way of salvation before Bethlehem, the sacrificial system was used as a symbol of Christ. People did not say that it is through Christ who was born in Bethlehem, they said I will do what God told me to do. It was based of faith, as our salvation is based on today. In people time,
Christ was not born yet but in God's eternal time it is Christ who always was the key to our salvation. It did not work as well, it was fulfilled when Christ was crucified.
Click to expand...
The only way to salvation is by believing the gospel of Jesus Christ. No one in the OT believed this because it was hid, therefore they were not saved but kept safe in Abraham’s bosom through faith and obedience.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#44
Dec 12, 2013
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#44
It is pure ignorance to say that no one in the O.T. knew of or looked forward to Christ or the cross..........JESUS said clearly the SCRIPTURES testified of HIM and the O.T. was FULL of pictures, types and shadows and in the VOLUME of the book it is written of me.....EVEN ABRAHAM told the rich MAN that his 5 brothers could HEAR the truth to keep them from coming to that place where he was being tortured.....

Genesis 3:15
Abel's offering pointed to blood in faith and firstling of the FLOCK
Passover
Brazen Serpent
Sacrifices of the O.T. and priesthood
Scape GOAT
Job knew of and understood his REDEEMER and the resurrection
David and the PSALMS
Isaiah 53

etc.......
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#45
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
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#45
John146 said:
The only way to salvation is by believing the gospel of Jesus Christ. No one in the OT believed this because it was hid, therefore they were not saved but kept safe in Abraham’s bosom through faith and obedience.
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FALSE............David speaks of his salvation in presence TENSE and JOB knew of his redeemer and the resurrection
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#46
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
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#46
John146 said:
The only way to salvation is by believing the gospel of Jesus Christ. No one in the OT believed this because it was hid, therefore they were not saved but kept safe in Abraham’s bosom through faith and obedience.
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Isn't this being saved? They are safe, protected, saved.
 
C

corazondeldei

Active member
#47
Apr 17, 2019
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#47
NIV1984 1 Peter 1:10-12
Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#48
Jan 13, 2016
17,176
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#48
Blik said:
Isn't this being saved? They are safe, protected, saved.
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Well, my salvation puts me present with the Lord. The blood of Jesus was applied to them through their obedience.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#49
Jan 13, 2016
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#49
corazondeldei said:
NIV1984 1 Peter 1:10-12
Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
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Yep, great passage showing that those OT prophets prophesied of things to come with no understanding. Same for the angels.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#50
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#50
John146 said:
What if they did not walk in all the commands and ordinances of the law?
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They were saved by grace through faith, just like the NT saints.
Justified by faith in what?
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Faith in God and the coming Lamb of God. Ever since Abel, the OT saints understood the necessity of a sinless substitute shedding its blood for their sins. Until Christ sins were covered. At the cross sin was taken away (John 1:29)

By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. (Heb 11:4)
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#51
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#51
John146 said:
Well, my salvation puts me present with the Lord. The blood of Jesus was applied to them through their obedience.
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I don't think you will find one scripture that tells you this. Salvation has never been, according to scripture, by obedience but by faith.

Could you name a human who has lived that was so perfect, so without sin, that they have earned salvation? Yet we are told there were saints who lived. They certainly didn't earn it, look at David, beloved by the Lord. What!! a sinner he was.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#52
Jan 13, 2016
17,176
3,700
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#52
Nehemiah6 said:
They were saved by grace through faith, just like the NT saints.

Faith in God and the coming Lamb of God. Ever since Abel, the OT saints understood the necessity of a sinless substitute shedding its blood for their sins. Until Christ sins were covered. At the cross sin was taken away (John 1:29)

By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. (Heb 11:4)
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If they didn’t follow the law, their sins were not forgiven and they were cut off from God’s people. We simply must believe, no works attached.

Abel was righteous by doing not merely believing like you and I. Through his offering he obtained witness that he was righteous.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#53
Jan 13, 2016
17,176
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#53
Blik said:
Could you name a human who has lived that was so perfect, so without sin, that they have earned salvation?
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None, they were not saved like you and I. The best they could do is earn their way to Abraham’s bosom through obedience to God’s word whatever God had given them. Most, through the law.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#54
Jan 13, 2016
17,176
3,700
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#54
Blik said:
I don't think you will find one scripture that tells you this. Salvation has never been, according to scripture, by obedience but by faith.

Could you name a human who has lived that was so perfect, so without sin, that they have earned salvation? Yet we are told there were saints who lived. They certainly didn't earn it, look at David, beloved by the Lord. What!! a sinner he was.
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Ephesians 3:2 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#55
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
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#55
John146 said:
None, they were not saved like you and I. The best they could do is earn their way to Abraham’s bosom through obedience to God’s word whatever God had given them. Most, through the law.
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I realized that many of the participants in this forum tend to subscribe to covenant theology. They tend to find it difficult to accept that there were different ways to show faith in God, depending on the dispensation.

To them, there is only one way to God, putting your faith in Jesus Christ. They will continue to believe that, even when you point out to them that people in the OT were very unlikely to understand that God will come down as a human to die for their sins.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#56
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#56
John146 said:
If they didn’t follow the law, their sins were not forgiven and they were cut off from God’s people. We simply must believe, no works attached.

Abel was righteous by doing not merely believing like you and I. Through his offering he obtained witness that he was righteous.
Click to expand...
I don't believe this is correct. Would you give us scripture that backs up your idea that God forgave only through sinlessness.

Abel had faith in what God told them, that blood was required for forgiveness. It was not because he obeyed that he had salvation, but because he had faith in what God told them.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#57
Jan 13, 2016
17,176
3,700
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#57
Blik said:
I don't believe this is correct. Would you give us scripture that backs up your idea that God forgave only through sinlessness.

Abel had faith in what God told them, that blood was required for forgiveness. It was not because he obeyed that he had salvation, but because he had faith in what God told them.
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Does faith require obedience?
 
FollowHisSteps

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
#58
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
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#58
John146 said:
Does faith require obedience?
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I like this question, because it is too small a point to fully encompass the truth.

God says the way of life he designed in founded on love, and reflects His heart and ways.
Love works out helping others and taking care of all that is before one.

To agree with God, and to know Him is to know this truth about life, love and eternity.
So if one has faith in Him, you will obey out of joy and praise, knowing this is the way of life
and eternity.

Unfortunately if one asks the question "Does faith require obedience" the questioner does
not know God is they require an answer. Faith is obedience, like life is eating food, breathing,
sleeping, working. One would not ask to live do we need to eat, breath, sleep, work, because
without these things we would be dead.
 
C

cc4

Member
#59
May 21, 2019
31
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#59
The law have alwayes been the ten commandments.
Adams covernant was the ten commandments, Enoch keept them and so did Noah thats why they were saved.
Abrahams covernant was the ten commandments and so was Moses covernant. And Yahooshas (jesus) covernat was the ten commandments.

And theyb are bining even today.
 
J

jerry2465

Senior Member
#60
Dec 28, 2016
160
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#60
john146, you say that no person was saved before the cross and that OT people were saved through obedience to the law? Has it came to mind that the OT reached much further back than the law of Moses? And it sounds like you might think that everyone who ever lived before the cross is doomed to hell? Do you think that people such as David, Moses, Samuel, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah and the list could go on and on are in hell right now? They didn't have Jesus? They didn't know about the cross? God is love and always gives a way of choice in which we (and the OT people) can choose him with faith, and that faith is what brings about salvation, it has never been about how well a person could keep the law.
 
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