John 3:16

[Wansvic]

You did not answer my question. So how much obedience does it take? How much obedience must we accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to "help" Him save us?

No more obedience that what is specified in the word. Belief in Jesus, repentance, water baptism in His name, and the God given infilling of the Holy Ghost. Afterward we are called to walk worthy of our calling, that as Paul said, we would not be castaway.

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. 1 Cor 9:27

 

[Wansvic]

Are you a Oneness Pentecostal? If so, read this - https://carm.org/must-baptism-be-in-jesus-name

Your response to scripture is here go look at what someone else says about it? No thank you. My confidence is established firmly in the God-inspired word.
Surprised you back up your interpretation from the Internet. There are Internet sites that deny the very divinity of Jesus. Are we to believe that as well?

 

[Wansvic]

Your argument here sounds similar to what I was taught prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago and I was recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who reaffirmed what I was taught from his statement below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

The argument from this Roman Catholic about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above equates to salvation by faith + works and sounds similar to your argument about salvation by faith and responding in obedience to Him.

I don't concern myself with the opinions of others. My focus is on the study of the bible. When a concept such as water baptism in Jesus name is defined and adhered to in the word, all should accept that as truth and obey the God-given command to do it.

One's faith in the word of God will prompt them to step out and obey. (Romans 1:16-17) Faith is made perfect through works of obedience:

James 2:17-22
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

 

[JaumeJ]

I was convinced of Jesus Christ by the entrance of the Holy Spiritinto me. I began a period of living in the forests of the Rockies and reading the Word for the first time beginning with Genesis. That first summer someone came to me wholoved(loves) Jesus as God and Lord, and asked if I had been baptized. When I told him no, he volunteered to baptize me. I thought if God sent to the trouble of sending someone here to me to tell me this, I should do it. We went to Boulder to a small church, and there I was baptizd in the name of the Father , the Son an the Holy Spirit.

I am pleased to have obeyed this what jESUS SAYS WE SHOULD DO. i FELT i WAS SAVED BEFORE BUT THE BAPTISM SUR WAS NICE. i LOVE TO BE COUNTED AS OBEDIENT TO jESUS FIRST, AMEN.

 

[mailmandan]

No more obedience that what is specified in the word. Belief in Jesus, repentance, water baptism in His name, and the God given infilling of the Holy Ghost.

Once again, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Afterward we are called to walk worthy of our calling, that as Paul said, we would not be castaway.

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. 1 Cor 9:27

Works-salvationists generally look to their performance as the basis of obtaining and maintaining salvation. In regards to 1 Corinthians 9:27, in context, Paul is talking about being disqualified for the prize. What is the prize? Is it the reward he spoke of in verse 1 Corinthians 9:18? Eternal life/Salvation is a gift, not a prize. (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8) A prize is something that you work for and earn where a gift is something that you freely accept. Prize (brabeion) - the prize awarded to a victor, the reward (recognition) that follows triumph. That doesn't sound like a free gift to me.

In 1 Corinthians 3:14-15, we read - If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, (of reward) though he himself will be saved..

Notice that verse 24 says, "Do you not know that those who run in a race ALL run, but ONLY ONE receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it." In an Olympic race, all runners run but only one receives the gold medal. So what happens to the runners that receive the silver medal or bronze medal or finish the race with no medal? Are they disqualified from the Olympics or from the prize, receiving the gold medal?

 

[mailmandan]

Your response to scripture is here go look at what someone else says about it? No thank you. My confidence is established firmly in the God-inspired word.

CARM stands for Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry and they expose the false teachings of false religions and cults. So far, you have demonstrated that your confidence is in water baptism as the means of your salvation, which was not established from God's Word, but perhaps your biased church doctrine.

Surprised you back up your interpretation from the Internet.

No need for lawyer tactics. I have been backing up my interpretation with Scripture. I only sent you that link just in case you are a Oneness Pentecostal, yet you still did not answer my question.

There are Internet sites that deny the very divinity of Jesus. Are we to believe that as well?

I believe Internet sites that hold to essential Christian doctrine and do not pervert the gospel.

 

[Wansvic]

It logically follows that we get water baptized after we believe, but if someone is on their death bed and cannot get baptized before death, they are still saved because they BELIEVED (John 3:18; Acts 10:43; Romans 1:16) which is in harmony with Mark 16:16(b)..but he who does not believe will be condemned. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "water baptized or condemned."

Certainly, water baptism is an important act of obedience. Any one professing to believe/trust in Jesus as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation and yet refusing to be water baptized is of questionable sincerity. It's unthinkable that anyone who truly believes the gospel would refuse to be water baptized. I could not wait to get water baptized after my conversion and I cannot think of one Christian that I know who has refused to be water baptized after their conversion.

Baptism would have no meaning without Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, but Christ’s death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism. In other words, Christ’s death is the substance and baptism is the sign/symbol/picture. Without the substance there would be no sign/symbol/picture.

Baptism put it in it's proper place, subsequent to salvation through faith in Christ as all rites and works must be. Baptism is for believers, and believers are already saved the moment that they place their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, not by rites or religious works, or good works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). This does not remove good works/acts of obedience (including water baptism) from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration and salvation.

Provide scripture that exclusively states that water baptism is nothing more than a sign. I know of none.

Also, every record of the administration of water baptism shows it was done exclusively in the name of Jesus. Does it matter how one is water baptized? I would direct individuals to the word of God for therein lies the answer.
What a people thinks is not the definitive answer. God is the final authority and His answer is in His word.

An individual's choice to follow the mandate is entirely up to them.

 

[mailmandan]

I don't concern myself with the opinions of others. My focus is on the study of the bible. When a concept such as water baptism in Jesus name is defined and adhered to in the word, all should accept that as truth and obey the God-given command to do it.

One's faith in the word of God will prompt them to step out and obey. (Romans 1:16-17) Faith is made perfect through works of obedience:

James 2:17-22
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Baptism "in Jesus name only" is not a formal for salvation, as was clearly explained to you in the CARM link, but apparently, you are not interested in the truth but are only interested in accommodating your biased church doctrine. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

You need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

 

[Wansvic]

CARM stands for Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry and they expose the false teachings of false religions and cults. So far, you have demonstrated that your confidence is in water baptism as the means of your salvation, which was not established from God's Word, but perhaps your biased church doctrine.

No need for lawyer tactics. I have been backing up my interpretation with Scripture. I only sent you that link just in case you are a Oneness Pentecostal, yet you still did not answer my question.

I believe Internet sites that hold to essential Christian doctrine and do not pervert the gospel.

Wonder whether Pharisees were members of the CARM of their day. They were the religious leaders of Jesus' day and they rejected Him and His message.

 

[Wansvic]

Baptism "in Jesus name only" is not a formal for salvation, as was clearly explained to you in the CARM link, but apparently, you are not interested in the truth but are only interested in accommodating your biased church doctrine. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

You need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

You give your interpretation of what the bible means instead of accepting it for what it literally says. And that is okay. It you feel confident in doing so.
I stand on what the bible states and will continue to do so.
This discussion continues to go no where. Thanks for the opportunity to discuss God's word. May He reveal more of Himself to both of us as we seek Him each and every day.

 

[mailmandan]

You give your interpretation of what the bible means instead of accepting it for what it literally says. And that is okay. It you feel confident in doing so.
I stand on what the bible states and will continue to do so.
This discussion continues to go no where. Thanks for the opportunity to discuss God's word. May He reveal more of Himself to both of us as we seek Him each and every day.

I accept what the Bible means and it’s critical that we read Scripture in context and properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine, as I demonstrated in my posts. Otherwise we end up with contradictions in Scripture. Thank you for the discussion as well.

 

[dcontroversal]

I accept what the Bible means and it’s critical that we read Scripture in context and properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine, as I demonstrated in my posts. Otherwise we end up with contradictions in Scripture. Thank you for the discussion as well.

Hell will be full of people that trusted into water regeneration, works, and religious hoop jumping.....

 

[JaumeJ]

Jesus Christ is foretold to have the titles Everlasting Father, God Almighty, Comforter, Ruler of Peace and more.

When we are baptized in the name, Jesus, Yeshua, we are baptized in all those names. The namee is not exlusive to the Father, theSon and the Holy Spirit for they are One. Do not say you understand it to be otherwise, and I will not say I understand this mystery yet to be revealed, howeer it is writen, therefore I will beieve because I believe God.

 

[theanointedwinner]

Are we done straying away from the simplicity that is found in Christ?

 

[cc4]

Christians always quote John 3:16 that God so loved the world. Thats not true and it is a false translation. If you lock att old greek or coptic bibles the word is fellowship/brotherhood not world as it have falsley been translated to.

But Christians newer speaks of what the rest of the book of John says about the world and the commandments.

1 John 5: 2-4
"2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."

That we keep Yahooahs (gods) commandments that is the 10 commandments. For whatsoever is born of Yahooah OVERCOMETH the WORLD: and this is the VICTORY that OVERCOMETH the WORLD.

1 John 4:4
"Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because GREATER is HE that is IN YOU, than HE that is IN THE WORLD."

For the world is satans and Yahooah doesn't love the world he loves the brethren that keeps hes commandments and covernants.

1 John 3:13-14
"13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren."

Once more John tells us that the world is evil and talks about the love of the brotherhood.

1 John 3
"3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of Yahooah: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not."

The world dosent know Yahooah and therefore it dosent know us. The world is evil and is not to be loved.

1 John 2:15-17
"15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."

LOVE not the WORLD!! He dident love the world and if anyone love the world the love of Yahooah is not in them!
This is just some quotes from 1 John that shows that Yahooah dosent love the world and that 1 John 3:16 have been translated falsley.