John Chapter 3 REFUTES Five Point Calvinism
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
This is true, but I believe what happens as that seed grows and finally breaks through the surface, Arminians at that point proclaim 'Frank has been born again!', when in reality it happened much earlier. (In my case it was about 15 months from the time I heard the Gospel where God began opening my eyes to spiritual things TO where I said 'yes' to Jesus and never looked back.
True, yet whoever believes is called the 'elect', and others dying in unbelief, perish without the benefit of Christ's atonement.
True, yet it benefits only the elect. See #2
Ehh, this is where it gets sticky.
It appears it takes a bit of eye salve...
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. (Mat 16:17)
Luke 10:22 (KJV) All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
Definitely agreed.
There is a lot to unpack with the topic as a whole, at least I don't believe it is so cut and dry as many make it out to be. Hence the centuries long debate.
True, yet whoever believes is called the 'elect', and others dying in unbelief, perish without the benefit of Christ's atonement.
True, yet it benefits only the elect. See #2
Ehh, this is where it gets sticky.
It appears it takes a bit of eye salve...
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. (Mat 16:17)
Luke 10:22 (KJV) All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
Definitely agreed.
There is a lot to unpack with the topic as a whole, at least I don't believe it is so cut and dry as many make it out to be. Hence the centuries long debate.
-
1
- Show all
Good question. According to the King James online Bible dictionary to mean chosen or choose.>
ELECT', verb transitive [Latin electus, from eligo; e or ex and lego; Gr. to choose.]
1. Properly, to pick out; to select from among two or more, that which is preferred. Hence,
2. To select or take for an office or employment; to choose from among a number; to select or manifest preference by vote or designation; as, to elect a representative by ballot or viva voce; to elect a president or governor.
3. In theology, to designate, choose or select as an object of mercy or favor.
4. To choose; to prefer; to determine in favor of.
ELECT', adjective Chosen, taken by preference from among two or more. Hence,
1. In theology, chosen as the object of mercy; chosen, selected or designated to eternal life; predestinated in the divine counsels.
2. Chosen, but no inaugurated, consecrated or invested with office; as bishop elect; emperor elect; governor or mayor elect But in the scriptures, and in theology, this word is generally used as a noun.
ELECT', noun One chosen or set apart; applied to Christ.
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect in whom my soul delighteth. Isaiah 42:1.
1. Chosen or designated by God to salvation; predestinated to glory as the end, and to sanctification as the means; usually with a plural signification, the elect
Shall not God avenge his own elect? Luke 18:7.
If it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect Matthew 24:24.
He shall send his angels--and they shall gather his elect from the four winds. Matthew 24:24.
2. Chosen; selected; set apart as a peculiar church and people; applied to the Israelites. Isaiah 45:4.
ELECT', verb transitive [Latin electus, from eligo; e or ex and lego; Gr. to choose.]
1. Properly, to pick out; to select from among two or more, that which is preferred. Hence,
2. To select or take for an office or employment; to choose from among a number; to select or manifest preference by vote or designation; as, to elect a representative by ballot or viva voce; to elect a president or governor.
3. In theology, to designate, choose or select as an object of mercy or favor.
4. To choose; to prefer; to determine in favor of.
ELECT', adjective Chosen, taken by preference from among two or more. Hence,
1. In theology, chosen as the object of mercy; chosen, selected or designated to eternal life; predestinated in the divine counsels.
2. Chosen, but no inaugurated, consecrated or invested with office; as bishop elect; emperor elect; governor or mayor elect But in the scriptures, and in theology, this word is generally used as a noun.
ELECT', noun One chosen or set apart; applied to Christ.
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect in whom my soul delighteth. Isaiah 42:1.
1. Chosen or designated by God to salvation; predestinated to glory as the end, and to sanctification as the means; usually with a plural signification, the elect
Shall not God avenge his own elect? Luke 18:7.
If it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect Matthew 24:24.
He shall send his angels--and they shall gather his elect from the four winds. Matthew 24:24.
2. Chosen; selected; set apart as a peculiar church and people; applied to the Israelites. Isaiah 45:4.
-
1
- Show all
2 Peter 1:10 KJVS
[10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
1 Peter 1:2 KJVS
[2] Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Colossians 3:12 KJVS
[12] Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
IOW, all believers are elect.
[10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
1 Peter 1:2 KJVS
[2] Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Colossians 3:12 KJVS
[12] Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
IOW, all believers are elect.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Hi John, that's a very interesting thought concerning God's election. I'll have to consider it more thoroughly. Thanks 
As for verses/passages that speak of our salvation having something to do with God choosing us, these three passages come quickly to mind.
~Deut
As for verses/passages that speak of our salvation having something to do with God choosing us, these three passages come quickly to mind.
Acts 13
44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord.
45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming.
46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
47 “For so the Lord has commanded us,
‘I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES,
THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.’ ”
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Ephesians 1
4 He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will
2 Timothy 2
8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel,
9 for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound!
10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
~Deut
Kindly note that this verse does not say that "He predestined us to be saved by grace" but that "He predestined us to adoption as sons".
So we must pause at this point and focus on what is being said, rather than what we think is being said.
1. Children of God are NOT adopted children, but genuine children who are "born of God, and born of the Spirit".
2. God predestines no one for salvation since (a) Christ died for the sins of the whole world and (b) God offers salvation to "whosoever will" obey the Gospel.
3. Thus no one is predestined for the New Birth, which is a result of obedience to the Gospel.
4. However, God did not stop with making believers only children of God. He has also made His children "heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ" which means that everything which belongs to Christ also belongs to the children of God.
5. Therefore biblical "adoption" (unlike human adoptions) means giving believers the full status, privileges, and dignities of heirs of God. "Adoption" is a term involving the dignity of the relationship of believers as sons; it is not a putting into the family by spiritual birth, but a putting into the position of sons. " (Vine's Expository Dictionary)
6. When you combine this with the fact the predestination is for the perfection and glorification of the saints (Rom 8:29,30) then it becomes perfectly clear that no one is elected or predestined for salvation, but all those who believe are predestined "to be conformed to the image of His Son".
So we must pause at this point and focus on what is being said, rather than what we think is being said.
1. Children of God are NOT adopted children, but genuine children who are "born of God, and born of the Spirit".
2. God predestines no one for salvation since (a) Christ died for the sins of the whole world and (b) God offers salvation to "whosoever will" obey the Gospel.
3. Thus no one is predestined for the New Birth, which is a result of obedience to the Gospel.
4. However, God did not stop with making believers only children of God. He has also made His children "heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ" which means that everything which belongs to Christ also belongs to the children of God.
5. Therefore biblical "adoption" (unlike human adoptions) means giving believers the full status, privileges, and dignities of heirs of God. "Adoption" is a term involving the dignity of the relationship of believers as sons; it is not a putting into the family by spiritual birth, but a putting into the position of sons. " (Vine's Expository Dictionary)
6. When you combine this with the fact the predestination is for the perfection and glorification of the saints (Rom 8:29,30) then it becomes perfectly clear that no one is elected or predestined for salvation, but all those who believe are predestined "to be conformed to the image of His Son".
James 4:8 - We have to believe Jesus first before the Father can draw us not the other way around.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
PSALM 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the LordGod, that I may declare all thy works.
Joshua 24:14-15 If we have no choice, why would God give us a choice? God is sovereign enough to give us a choice. Calvinists cannot tell God what to do.
14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord.
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
John 3:16 The elect is whosoever who believes in Jesus. The condition is to believe first to become an elect. Not elect first then believe.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Exodus 20:5-6 God can show mercy to whom He likes but in this verse, it is specific to those who love Him.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
2Tim 2:20-22 There is always a condition on how God chooses His elect, that is to believe.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
Jer 18:4
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Acts 16:31 Why are we commanded to believe if it is only for calvinists?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
PSALM 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the LordGod, that I may declare all thy works.
Joshua 24:14-15 If we have no choice, why would God give us a choice? God is sovereign enough to give us a choice. Calvinists cannot tell God what to do.
14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord.
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
John 3:16 The elect is whosoever who believes in Jesus. The condition is to believe first to become an elect. Not elect first then believe.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Exodus 20:5-6 God can show mercy to whom He likes but in this verse, it is specific to those who love Him.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
2Tim 2:20-22 There is always a condition on how God chooses His elect, that is to believe.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
Jer 18:4
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Acts 16:31 Why are we commanded to believe if it is only for calvinists?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Yes the service of God working salvation in man to both will and do His good pleasure. If he has begun the good work he promises he will finish it. (Philippians 1:6) In that way we know as many as the father gave the power to come, they will come. How could man resist the will of God the cause of the fall? Not one more or one less. As always God must do the first work of giving spirit life. Not of our corrupted spirit .A man must be born again .
That is the sum total of the word 'elect' so we don't need to yield the word over to the Calvinists, do we? Or accuse someone of being a Calvinist just because they use the word apart from the context of service, e.g....
2 Timothy 2:10 (KJV) Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10 (KJV) Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Scripture says otherwise...
John 15:19 NASBS
[19] If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.
2 Timothy 1:9 NASBS
[9] who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
John 15:19 NASBS
[19] If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.
2 Timothy 1:9 NASBS
[9] who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
