Faith/Works...How much faith? How much works?

crossnote · May 25, 2019

Your theology is not based on Jesus Christ and Him crucified but on us and our good works. Good bye.

Galatians 3:10 (KJV) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

corazondeldei · May 25, 2019

NIV1984 Ephesians 2:11-22
One in Christ Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (that done in the body by the hands of men)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the PROMISE, without hope and without God in the world. BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Which brings us back to verse 10.

NIV1984 Ephesians 2:10
For we are God’s workmanship, created IN CHRIST JESUS (IN HIS BODY) to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

NIV1984 Ephesians 4:11-16
It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

corazondeldei · May 25, 2019

NIV1984 Philippians 2:1-12
Imitating Christ’s Humility If you have any encouragement from being UNITED WITH CHRIST, if any comfort from HIS LOVE, if any FELLOWSHIP WITH THE SPIRIT, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. ,

...We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God. 1 Corinthians 8:1-3

corazondeldei · May 25, 2019

corazondeldei said:

NIV1984 Philippians 2:1-12
Imitating Christ’s Humility If you have any encouragement from being UNITED WITH CHRIST, if any comfort from HIS LOVE, if any FELLOWSHIP WITH THE SPIRIT, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. ,

...We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God. 1 Corinthians 8:1-3

If we love our neighbours then we love God and are known by God.

NIV1984 Matthew 25:45-46
“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

crossnote · May 25, 2019

We love him, (and others) because he first loved us.
(1Jn 4:19)

dcontroversal · May 25, 2019

crossnote said:

Nothing like having your thread thread bombed by banned past members and Cainologists, workers for and salvation losers hey........Seohce--->Argueless--->and now --->Don Corleone.....

crossnote · May 25, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Yeah, quite a trinity.

corazondeldei · May 25, 2019

NIV1984 Hebrews 4:12-13
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

NIV1984 Matthew 12:36-37
But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

NIV1984 Luke 6:43-45
A Tree and Its Fruit “No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.

NIV1984 James 1:19-21
My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, for man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires. Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

NIV1984 1 Corinthians 4:12-13
We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; when we are slandered, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world.

NIV1984 Romans 15:1-4
We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: “The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me.” For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

crossnote · May 25, 2019

corazondeldei said:

NIV1984 Hebrews 4:12-13
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

NIV1984 Matthew 12:36-37
But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

NIV1984 Luke 6:43-45
A Tree and Its Fruit “No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.

NIV1984 James 1:19-21
My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, for man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires. Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

NIV1984 1 Corinthians 4:12-13
We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; when we are slandered, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world.

NIV1984 Romans 15:1-4
We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: “The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me.” For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

Could you please stick to the OP?
Faith/Works...How much faith? How much works?

corazondeldei · May 25, 2019

NIV1984 1 Peter 2:20-25
But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.” When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore ou8r sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

NIV1984 Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,

corazondeldei · May 25, 2019

crossnote said:

Faith WITHOUT works is DEAD.

NIV1984 Romans 3:3-4
What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

NIV1984 James 2:22-24
You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

crossnote · May 25, 2019

corazondeldei said:

Yes, works attend faith, but God justifies by faith alone....

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. (Rom 3:28)

But before men we are justified by our works (that which they see)...

But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. (Jas 2:18)

corazondeldei · May 27, 2019

crossnote said:

NIV1984 John 5:17-20
Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these.

NIV1984 John 14:12
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

NIV1984 1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

NIV1984 2 Corinthians 6:1
As God’s fellow workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are working as one to save those who would believe through the church which is the BODY OF CHRIST. If all would stop working after JUSTIFICATION, then who will be saved? Who will reach out to the lost? If JUSTIFICATION is all we need to be saved then all are saved since Jesus died once and FOR ALL

NIV1984 John 4:34-38
“My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. Do you not say, ‘Four months more and then the harvest’? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now he harvests the crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together. Thus the saying ‘One sows and another reaps’ is true. I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor.”

NIV1984 Galatians 6:7-10
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature WILL REAP DESTRUCTION; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit WILL REAP ETERNAL LIFE. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

We were not JUSTIFIED just to CLAIM salvation but to work OUT that salvation as parts of the body of Christ doing His works here on earth through the power and leading of the Holy Spirit for the benefit of others.

NIV1984 1 Peter 1:10-12
Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

FollowHisSteps · May 28, 2019

Reading some posts it struck me two perspectives.
1 Faith needs to be the source of action, or the action is not legitimate
2 Actions are part of life, and the source of some are love towards others. When faith gets involved
a new perspective arrives and a new drive to doing good works.

For me the first perspective is legalism, the desire to isolate what is truly from the Lord in a purest sense
and what is just part of life.
The second perspective is recognising we are born with love and care, and exercise it in the darkness as
well as in the light. When we walk in the light, it becomes clear all good things come from God, His essence
put in every living thing, shows itself, though sin has corrupted and obscured much, it is still there.

In Christ things are washed, made whole, purified, and we begin to get a proper focus on how to love and
care for those we meet.

So both perspectives reflect aspects of the same reality. Some seem addicted to wanting to say they are
truly authentic in doing good, and all the rest of "good deeds" are actually evil.

And here I stop. Once good deeds are called evil because of who is performing them, morality has gone and
been replaced with sectarian favouritism.

The whole principle of the last judgement, is all are accountable for their actions, not actions are neutral
and faith alone brings perspective. The gospel is, Jesus is the part in our lives that brings life to the whole,
through which we can share love and care, one to another. It is not creating something that does not
already exist, but is actually bringing life to that which God has created everywhere. What is new is the life
of love, purity and holiness that dwells within us through Jesus. He changes everything and bring security
to our needs and expressions, knowing it is safe with boundaries and understanding.

MattforJesus · May 28, 2019

crossnote said:

I would say 78% faith, and 22% works is the perfect formula, but it is rather hard to live up to that although I try.

For sometimes I have to pull my works back a little as not to decrease faith, and pull my faith back a little as not to decrease works, so I can have the right balance between the 2.

I was not in the truth for years as I was operating by 60% faith, and 40% works, but then I got it right.

It is hard to accomplish it, but you can if you put the effort in to it, but sometimes is can be a bummer trying to work that formula at times.

Hey Matt, come over here and put your faith with ours as we pray for this person.

Oh I am sorry but I used too much faith this week, so I will go above the optimal faith quota for the week, so I cannot help you out.

Sir I beg of you, I am hungry and in need of food lest I perish from off this earth.

Oh I am sorry but I did my quota of works for the week, and do not want to upset the optimal balance between faith and works, but if it is any consolation I love you man, and I am not even drunk so it carries more weight that way.

I believe we should have faith, and works, wherever it applies, and these works are works of love to help people with wherever they have a need, for living for God is all the time, nothing wavering, so what ever pertains to the kingdom of God at any time we do it if we can.

The Bible says whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all of your might concerning doing good.

Charity, love in action, is greater than faith, which John said do not love in word, or in tongue, but in deed, and in truth.

And faith works by love.

So all we are doing is works that are love towards people, and love is the fulfilling of the law.

Which we know we have to love people to be able to be right with God, so why do people fight over works whether they save us or not, when the works are loving people that we have to do, and if we do not do those works then how are we saved if we do not love people.

So we have to do works of love towards people to be saved, because we have to love people, and to help them with their needs if possible, which is the works that Paul, James, and John, are talking about.

That is why Jesus addressed the first Church in Revelation 2, and said, you have left your first love, and repent, and do those works.

But when the Bible talks of works it is about helping people with their physical needs, like food, and clothing, so it mainly speaks of people that have more than their needs that if they are going by their wants, and not caring about the poor and needy, then they are not operating in faith.

But if a person is barely getting by, and cannot afford to help people then they should not worry about it for they cannot do anything about it, except help people with things other than that.

crossnote · May 28, 2019

MattforJesus said:

If you are living by law, you have to love people 100% to be saved...one slip and it's curtains.
That's how serious we need grace which comes through trusting in Jesus the One crucified for our sins, the One who fulfilled the law perfectly in our stead.

For as by the one man's disobedience (Adam) the many were made sinners (us), so by the one man's obedience (Jesus) the many (believers) will be made righteous.
(Rom 5:19)

crossnote · May 28, 2019

FollowHisSteps said:

What happened, did the Holy Spirit in us die?

(I can't go any further than this)

FollowHisSteps · May 28, 2019

crossnote said:

I am summarising a position. The key criteria is faith is the driving force, with words like if it is
not of faith it is sin. In this mindset, there is no concrete way of saying it is of the Spirit or of
the flesh, as different people are convicted about things for different reasons.

A common phrase used is "I did this from the flesh and not the Spirit, so it was not of God" etc.
Unfortunately this is so subjective, it creates a morality that is driven by ones own convictions
and not scripture or grace or freedom. After conversing with people talking like this I got the
impression they ended up more condemned and more unsure what was good and of God and
what was not, even if the out come and ministry was from the Lord.

crossnote · May 28, 2019

FollowHisSteps said:

But your original statement said 'source' not 'driving force'.

1 Faith needs to be the source of action, or the action is not legitimate

Click to expand...

There is a big difference between 'source' and 'driving force', (although the 'source' is the same) that may be contributing to some of the confusion.

Philippians 2:13 (KJV) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

corazondeldei · May 29, 2019

crossnote said:

It's good to see that the OP acknowledges God's working in a believer. I just don't think that it is wise and appropriate to question the FAITH and the works of a believer, to quantify them and to doubt the essence of works in salvation while believing at the same time that it is God who works in a believer both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

FAITH and actions are working together. When one intends to separate them, he creates division instead of unity in the spirit.

Let us have FAITH and work OUT that salvation which is OURS IN CHRIST, IN His body which is the Church of God, by WALKING as Jesus did when He walked in LOVE wherein "LOVE" according to John is to WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS…"He became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him."

NIV1984 Ephesians 4:4-16
THERE IS ONE BODY and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— one Lord, ONE FAITH, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men.” (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, TO PREPARE GOD'S PEOPLE FOR WORKS OF SERVICE, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach UNITY in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the FULLNESS OF CHRIST. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, AS EACH PART DOES IT'S WORK.

Faith without works is dead.

IF I HAVE A FAITH that can move mountains, BUT HAVE NOT LOVE, I am nothing.

...FAITH WORKING IN LOVE.

FAITH and actions are working together.

Faith/Works...How much faith? How much works?

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