John Chapter 3 REFUTES Five Point Calvinism

[Endoscopy]

Oops

 

[Endoscopy]

I didn't write that to begin with. I was raised in the Sacred heart of Mary doctrine. It's a catholic cult that teaches that Jesus doesn't listen to men's prayers. That our prayers must be directed to Mary to speak for us because only she is worthy to speak to Jesus for us. I had an LDS uncle and a JW aunt. I didn't come to Jesus until I started reading the bible. I only trust the bible. Not Luther, Calvin, Swaggart or even Billy Graham 100% Dr. Walter Martin, author of "The Kingdom of the Cults." Expose'/Book was my Sunday school teacher for a couple of years. He made mistakes too.

For the record I tend to follow the Mennonite/Ana Baptist teachings more than any other and there are no such churches in my town and no busses run on Sundays either.

Christianity is filled with cults, not to mention pseudo christian cults like many Mormons belong to. There is a big difference between cult and occult as well. No person that considers them self a Christian should read a horoscope or pray to a statue, ever! However those sins are forgivable too.

The problem today is all of the big protestant denominations have been taken over by secular ministers. They become ministers in order to have access to the church money. There is a church near me where the pastor buys a Caddilac or Lincoln every other year. He gives nice homilies on Sunday but never mentions Jesus and the resurrection with what that means.

The denomination I go to is immune to these ministers. The deacons control the money. They provide a small pot of money for the minister to use as needed for mercy activities and that is the only money the minister can access. If he sees a need for more money then the deacons take over and disperse the money as needed. They never ever give money to the people but pay for their needs. When someone gets angry and walks away it becomes obvious all they were after was the money. Those in real need are very thankful!

 

[Endoscopy]

Gary North wrote a book called "Crossed Fingers". It documented the take over by secular ministers of Presbyterian USA. He claims the other top protestant denominations have been taken over as well. Only sub denominations are still preaching the gospel message. If you attend a church and never hear the gospel message it has a secular minister! That is the litmus test!!

 

[PennEd]

I think that being spiritually dead has been streeeeetched out to mean far more than is does.....but lets put that aside and focus on the narrow concept of belief.

Salvific faith/belief as a "gift" pulled apart from "limited atonement" means Christ died for those upon whom He would never confer this gift, that seems very illogical.

I believe Calvinism only works as a complete system....but lets move on...

So are you stating humans do not possess the ability to be persuaded/believe something is true?

Why does God respond to human belief with the gift of eternal life then?

But to him who does not work but believes [from pisteuo] on Him who justifies the ungodly, his believing [pistis] is accounted for righteousness (Rom 4:5).

I try not to use human logic and reasoning in finding the meaning of Scripture. Something about Leaning not on my own understanding.... I attempt to let Scripture mean what is says.

Funny you should say that saying we were spiritually dead means we were in fact, spiritually dead is stretching. THAT'S what Scripture says, so the streeeeeeeeeeetching comes from those that say we were ONLY MOSTLY DEAD!

Human beings DO NOT have the ability to be persuaded.
That's why it is so important to understand that we were dead. Not just a little dead. At this point 1 Corinthians 2:14 is in effect.

That's why I believe apologetics are almost useless in bringing someone to Christ. We must give to the unsaved the Gospel unto Salvation, show them our changed lives through loving them with our actions and testimony, and pray for them. It is the Lord and the Lord ALONE that will activate their faith upon hearing His Gospel.

God's responses are not dependent on what we do. Why do people have such a problem fully accepting to the concept that God is in control?

I believe it is because instead of just doing what He instructs us to do, which is to love Him, love people, and Spread His Gospel, we get caught up in the mud of using our logic to try and figure out why God does certain things. In a sense we make ourselves out to be God, and how He should operate.

 

[calibob]

The problem today is all of the big protestant denominations have been taken over by secular ministers. They become ministers in order to have access to the church money. There is a church near me where the pastor buys a Caddilac or Lincoln every other year. He gives nice homilies on Sunday but never mentions Jesus and the resurrection with what that means.

The denomination I go to is immune to these ministers. The deacons control the money. They provide a small pot of money for the minister to use as needed for mercy activities and that is the only money the minister can access. If he sees a need for more money then the deacons take over and disperse the money as needed. They never ever give money to the people but pay for their needs. When someone gets angry and walks away it becomes obvious all they were after was the money. Those in real need are very thankful!

That's why I got away from working for televangelists. I got sick and tired of profit minded sermons and homilies. The name it and claim it / prosperity movement caused a terrible shift away from single minded salvation motivated evangelism, hawking instead that the Lord allowed himself to be sacrificed so we can become materially wealthy rather than storing up our riches in glory. They seem to forget that this life is temporary. So is death, the dead who are in Christ will be resurrected in new glorified bodies leaving former sins behind. That is if we are washed by the blood of the lamb. Which is Jesus.

I honestly seldom heard of Calvinism before I joined CC a year ago. and although I do believe in eternal unlosable Salvation I can see examples in the word where lazy, impatient,, greedy people can cast salvation aside. And like throwing keys into the sea I wouldn't consider them lost but discarded. It was a bad decision made voluntarily not accidentally. They can still be saved through confession and repentance. To me it's simple. I didn't get saved at church and I got baptized, in public, in a lagoon in swimming trunks!

 

[UnderGrace]

I try not to use human logic and reasoning in finding the meaning of Scripture. Something about Leaning not on my own understanding.... I attempt to let Scripture mean what is says.

Funny you should say that saying we were spiritually dead means we were in fact, spiritually dead is stretching. THAT'S what Scripture says, so the streeeeeeeeeeetching comes from those that say we were ONLY MOSTLY DEAD!

Human beings DO NOT have the ability to be persuaded.
That's why it is so important to understand that we were dead. Not just a little dead. At this point 1 Corinthians 2:14 is in effect.

That's why I believe apologetics are almost useless in bringing someone to Christ. We must give to the unsaved the Gospel unto Salvation, show them our changed lives through loving them with our actions and testimony, and pray for them. It is the Lord and the Lord ALONE that will activate their faith upon hearing His Gospel.

God's responses are not dependent on what we do. Why do people have such a problem fully accepting to the concept that God is in control?

I believe it is because instead of just doing what He instructs us to do, which is to love Him, love people, and Spread His Gospel, we get caught up in the mud of using our logic to try and figure out why God does certain things. In a sense we make ourselves out to be God, and how He should operate.

Ohhh PennEd....LOL where do I start .....Hmmm

One thing for sure interpreting scripture apart from employing the God given faculty of human reasoning (even in its fallen state) is a recipe for disaster (hint >>>>> modern day tongues, holy laughter, slain in the spirit etc., etc.,)

Penn Ed....people must absolutely hear the Gospel, scripture is very clear..... our actions support our words not vise versa...

more to come....

 

[Endoscopy]

I try not to use human logic and reasoning in finding the meaning of Scripture. Something about Leaning not on my own understanding.... I attempt to let Scripture mean what is says.

Funny you should say that saying we were spiritually dead means we were in fact, spiritually dead is stretching. THAT'S what Scripture says, so the streeeeeeeeeeetching comes from those that say we were ONLY MOSTLY DEAD!

Human beings DO NOT have the ability to be persuaded.
That's why it is so important to understand that we were dead. Not just a little dead. At this point 1 Corinthians 2:14 is in effect.

That's why I believe apologetics are almost useless in bringing someone to Christ. We must give to the unsaved the Gospel unto Salvation, show them our changed lives through loving them with our actions and testimony, and pray for them. It is the Lord and the Lord ALONE that will activate their faith upon hearing His Gospel.

God's responses are not dependent on what we do. Why do people have such a problem fully accepting to the concept that God is in control?

I believe it is because instead of just doing what He instructs us to do, which is to love Him, love people, and Spread His Gospel, we get caught up in the mud of using our logic to try and figure out why God does certain things. In a sense we make ourselves out to be God, and how He should operate.

There is the quinquarticular controversy between Calvinism and Arminianism. Both are Biblical. Read the defense of each. They give scripture references. Keep in mind the Apostles Creed was created to define what a Christian must believe. Anything outside it is to agree to disagree. Anything opposed to it is heresy. The agree to disagree creates the many gospel preaching denominations.

Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Armenian 5 points

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.

Calvinism Armenianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/

 

[calibob]

Here's My list of every doctrinal teacher I trust 100%.>

8 authors NT.jpg

• calibob
• Dec 14, 2018
• 1

Let's not forget the names of the authors.

 

[calibob]

Going to a church that teaches the whole word but emphesises that the New Testament now has the authority is more important than going to church to me. I trust the Bible more than the man in the pulpit. >
Hebrews 7:18 & 19 New International Version (NIV)

18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God...

 

[calibob]

I didn't learn that in church either.

 

[Magenta]

If you attend a church and never hear the gospel message it has a secular minister! That is the litmus test!!

As a believer, I cannot imagine attending such a church...

 

[calibob]

As a believer, I cannot imagine attending such a church...

Sometimes the message is twisted like, works + sacraments = salvation, or we must become vegetarians and go to church on Saturday's or strictly obey all Levitical laws. Or reject all divorced people. Not all heretics are secular.

 

[lightbearer]

Gary North wrote a book called "Crossed Fingers". It documented the take over by secular ministers of Presbyterian USA. He claims the other top protestant denominations have been taken over as well. Only sub denominations are still preaching the gospel message. If you attend a church and never hear the gospel message it has a secular minister! That is the litmus test!!

The Gospel message? To this I agree! But what is the Gospel message?

 

[lightbearer]

Sometimes the message is twisted like, works + sacraments = salvation, or we must become vegetarians and go to church on Saturday's or strictly obey all Levitical laws. Or reject all divorced people. Not all heretics are secular.

GOD is the Judge and the rejecter.

Question, What is meant by word in the following text.

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
(Rom 10:8 KJV)

Here is another question, what is meant by Law in this text.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
(Heb 8:10 KJV)

 

[lightbearer]

Gary North wrote a book called "Crossed Fingers". It documented the take over by secular ministers of Presbyterian USA. He claims the other top protestant denominations have been taken over as well. Only sub denominations are still preaching the gospel message. If you attend a church and never hear the gospel message it has a secular minister! That is the litmus test!!

And this is the problem, to many reading books about the Word rather than the Word itself.

 

[Macabeus]

The first four points of Five Point Calvinism are refuted by Scripture. And for the last point, the Bible says that the saints are “Kept by the power of God”.

1. THE “WATER” OF THE GOSPEL IS THE SEED OF THE NEW BIRTH

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Calvinism teaches that sinners are regenerated BEFORE they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. But the Bible says that “Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God” (the Gospel).

2. SALVATION IS FOR “WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH”

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Which means that “Unconditional Election” is false.

3. CHRIST DIED FOR ALL, SO THAT ALL “MIGHT” BE SAVED.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Which means that “Limited Atonement” is false.

4. ALL MAY EITHER BELIEVE, OR DISBELIEVE

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Which means that “Total Depravity” and “Irresistible Grace” are false.

5. THE UNSAVED CHOOSE DARKNESS OVER LIGHT

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Which means that God does not decree anyone for damnation.

I am not a Calvinist, but here are some thoughts on the matter I would like to share.

a. No one can come to the Father unless the Father draws him. Apart from Grace and God taking the initiative in seeking us, we are ALL dead and without hope and enemies of God.

b. Election precedes faith. I do not claim to fully understand election, and most interpretations people give seem to me to be oversimplifications.

c. Jesus died for all, but His death is only applied to those who believe.

d. God's grace can be resisted, but He is longsuffering to usward. We dare not abuse that longsuffering, though.

e. If our salvation is in Jesus' hand, we can be sure that He will not lose it.

 

[posthuman]

Gary North wrote a book called "Crossed Fingers". It documented the take over by secular ministers of Presbyterian USA. He claims the other top protestant denominations have been taken over as well. Only sub denominations are still preaching the gospel message. If you attend a church and never hear the gospel message it has a secular minister! That is the litmus test!!

you can still hear the gospel recited and be sitting in front of a preacher who has no idea what he's reciting, or doesn't believe what he's saying if he does.

sadly

 

[calibob]

GOD is the Judge and the rejecter.

Question, What is meant by word in the following text.

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
(Rom 10:8 KJV)

Here is another question, what is meant by Law in this text.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
(Heb 8:10 KJV)

Romans 10:8-9 New International Version (NIV)
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”[a] that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[calibob]

Here is another question, what is meant by Law in this text.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
(Heb 8:10 KJV)

Hebrews 8:7-12 New International Version (NIV)

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

It was an explanation of how Jesus fulfilled old testament prophecies.

 

[preacher4truth]

There is the quinquarticular controversy between Calvinism and Arminianism. Both are Biblical. Read the defense of each. They give scripture references. Keep in mind the Apostles Creed was created to define what a Christian must believe. Anything outside it is to agree to disagree. Anything opposed to it is heresy. The agree to disagree creates the many gospel preaching denominations.

Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Armenian 5 points

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.

Calvinism Armenianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/

You keep repeating this cut and paste argument of yours, and still use "Armenianism" when it's a misspelling.

Arminianism is opposed to scripture and is in opposition to the Doctrines of Grace/Calvinism.

Having Biblical references does not necessitate actual biblical support and truth. Therefore your usage of said argument is flawed, all cults and those in error use biblical references, this does not prove their teachings as being biblical.

Arminianism is in error, and cannot provide one in context passage to refute so-called Calvinism. Reformed theology is the only consistent theology in its truths and interpretations, hermeneutically, contextually and exegetically.

Therefore they are not "both" biblical as two opposing teachings cannot both be correct.