Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

[crossnote]

Yeah well, even a kitten has its day I guess,

When people state that if one gets eschatology wrong and most likely the rest of their doctrine is wrong is a really tragic remark and completely unfounded in the ecclesia, the spiritual church where I know many of the Reformed Faith are born again in Christ and hold to a Covenant Theological understanding of scripture with orthodox preterism.

From my point of view that would mean you, @eternally-gratefull @dcontroversal et. al., have most your doctrine wrong and I know that is absolutely not true....so in that light I was not defending myself only but all of us with different points of view on eschatology....the most debated part of the bible.

The starting point for correct understanding of all scripture, first and foremost is the Gospel, get that wrong then I might be concerned.

I believe, it's true, there are topics of importance, some more important that others, but what is very fundamental to the issue is our approach to Scripture which will affect our view on ALL the topics. The Millennialists take a more literal approach to Scripture than the Amillennialists, as you already know. I prefer a more literal approach, so when God says 6 days I take it as 6 days and don't try to force a contrived equation of 6000 days or compromise with the latest 'scientific' fad like evolution. I believe Amillennialism took wings around the 4th Century when Greek philosophy, especially Platonic, had infiltrated the Church turning much of Scripture that wasn't intended into types, symbols, shadows etc. Here is a quick sample... https://blog.logos.com/2013/11/plato-christianity-church-fathers/
When I was in Amillennial Churches, especially Reformed, they didn't have a developed eschatology except "Christ is returning and then the Judgment...everything else comprised of dissing Dispys. I just think that abridged/truncated view does disservice to the tons of Prophecies, especially in the Ot concerning Israel and in the NT concerning the Church.

 

[garee]

I believe, it's true, there are topics of importance, some more important that others, but what is very fundamental to the issue is our approach to Scripture which will affect our view on ALL the topics. The Millennialists take a more literal approach to Scripture than the Amillennialists, as you already know. I prefer a more literal approach, so when God says 6 days I take it as 6 days and don't try to force a contrived equation of 6000 days or compromise with the latest 'scientific' fad like evolution. I believe Amillennialism took wings around the 4th Century when Greek philosophy, especially Platonic, had infiltrated the Church turning much of Scripture that wasn't intended into types, symbols, shadows etc. Here is a quick sample... https://blog.logos.com/2013/11/plato-christianity-church-fathers/
When I was in Amillennial Churches, especially Reformed, they didn't have a developed eschatology except "Christ is returning and then the Judgment...everything else comprised of dissing Dispys. I just think that abridged/truncated view does disservice to the tons of Prophecies, especially in the Ot concerning Israel and in the NT concerning the Church.

I would offer. The Amil that I am familiar with does not change the number 6 into anything they feel like . The literalizers from my experience who say.... if the first sense makes sense move on. They it would seem simply make the signified language presented in the opening of the book of Revelation chapter on verse 1 to no effect. .

6 days, after all that was necessary to feed and shelter. Mankind was created as a beast of the field . Three a common metptphor. 3, 3 times = the end of the matter. 666 natural unconverted man.

1,000 in multitudes of tens, hundreds is used throughout the scriptures to represent a unknown many, many examples .They are found when searching for the unseen understanding hid in parables as for silver or gold.

He has concealed that privilege from natural man (666) and revealed it in parables to a Kingdom of priest as Ambassadors sent from a foreign land .Not of this world .

Proverbs 25:2It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings (Christians) is to search out a matter

The first time it is used it is used in that way . The word thousand years is used the same way to represent a unknown as to whatsoever is in view to include time. (God does not give numbers). He desires men walk by faith .Christ will come as thief in the night .We have the privilege to watch like Noah.

Psalm 90:4For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Ecclesiastes 6:6Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

2 Peter 3:8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

 

[crossnote]

I would offer. The Amil that I am familiar with does not change the number 6 into anything they feel like .

I used 6 only as an example of the difference between Amills and those with a more literal approach, whether it is 6 days of creation or 1000 years of the Millennium.
I didn't expect it to be turned into a crash course on the Kabbalah.

 

[cobalt1959]

Nobody took nothing from anybody. Peter stated the promises were being fulfilled in his day:

(Acts 2:39 For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far away, as many as the Lord our God will call to himself." )

(Acts 3:24 And all the prophets, from Samuel and those who followed him, have spoken about and announced these days. )

(Acts 3:25 You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your ancestors, saying to Abraham, 'And in your descendants all the nations of the earth will be blessed.' )

All prophecy "from Samuel and those who followed him" was fulfilled in the days of vengeance.

(Luke 21:22 because these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.)

Good grammar. Am I supposed to take someone seriously who cannot get basic grammar correct?

Your handling of scripture is extremely poor and your post is a case study in why we don't use one-verse proof texts to confirm or dismiss anything. The three verses you give from Acts are all references to the gift of salvation. The passage from Luke is future. It is speaking to the same events being prophesied about in the Olivet Discourse in Matthew.

When you relegate Israel to the trash heap, what you actually do is call God a liar. God made specific promises to Israel and stated, quite clearly, that He would keep them, no matter what. Anyone who propagates Replacement Theology says God won't keep those promises, which are NOT given to the Church. Several of those promises, in regards to both Israel and Christ, have not been fulfilled. Is God a liar?

 

[cobalt1959]

Sad you have discounted many of those from Reformed Tradition as being non believers as well as many independent Baptist churches and all those who have escaped dispensational teachings infused into American churches by Nelson Darby

I venture you probably never done a single day of deep research (primary sources) of the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD and the years beyond, nor have you studied Convenantal Theology

Someone with this view is not someone I will have any type of discussion with, nor do I want not to read their words, I guard my heart against such dogmatism which invariably leads to making statements like the bolded one above .... a very sad statement indeed, probably one of the most tragic I have read on CC in a long time ...yet perhaps indicative of someone with tremedous uncertainity of their own position since the schema has to fit together in a "oh so perfect" fashion.
Farewell.

You know the bolded statement . . . how? You don't know me personally. You don't know where or how I was raised, my background, what schools I went to, if I was or was not raised in a church, or any kind of schooling I have or have not had since I became an adult. So I am curious as to why you would think the above statement was, first of all, an acceptable statement for a self-proclaiming Christian to make to another Christian, and why you feel you can make that kind of call on my credentials with virtually zero information to go off of. Can you prove the above bolded statement you made about me, personally? You are way off base, and you are openly engaging in character assassination.

That is a transparent methodology. When you cannot accurately refute a premise, attack the person instead. The above was an obvious ad hominem, because you know absolutely nothing about me. You have already busted me in the chops a couple of times before, so you have set a pattern there. When you cannot deal with the subject in a cogent way, you resort to the above behavior. And you talk about other people?

Doctrine, believe it or not, is actually important. I am seeing the Amillennial view being defended here with proof tests that aren't even dealing with the End Times at all. You did it yourself with Romans 11:7. You cannot string together one-line proof texts like Christmas lights and come up with a biblically-correct doctrine. Hermeneutics and exegesis don't work that way. Out-of-context scripture never supports anything. That is why I never post one-liners. It is a spurious methodology.

We know, without doubt that Amillennialism was formulated during the 4th Century, and we know it was formulated by people, and an organization which was anti-semitic. That is not conjecture, it is fact. Perhaps you could explain to me why anyone would want to entertain any doctrine which grew from anti-semitic roots? Perhaps you could explain to my why it isn't a big deal to defend a doctrine that removes promises made to both Christ, and Israel, and transfer them to another group that never had those things promised to them. Perhaps you could explain, at the same time, why it would be acceptable to engage in that kind of behavior, in regards to scripture. This isn't about you or me being right. It's about getting scripture and the Gospel right. Yes, that's actually a serious matter.

 

[cobalt1959]

I would offer. The Amil that I am familiar with does not change the number 6 into anything they feel like . The literalizers from my experience who say.... if the first sense makes sense move on. They it would seem simply make the signified language presented in the opening of the book of Revelation chapter on verse 1 to no effect. .

6 days, after all that was necessary to feed and shelter. Mankind was created as a beast of the field . Three a common metptphor. 3, 3 times = the end of the matter. 666 natural unconverted man.

1,000 in multitudes of tens, hundreds is used throughout the scriptures to represent a unknown many, many examples .They are found when searching for the unseen understanding hid in parables as for silver or gold.

He has concealed that privilege from natural man (666) and revealed it in parables to a Kingdom of priest as Ambassadors sent from a foreign land .Not of this world .

Proverbs 25:2It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings (Christians) is to search out a matter

The first time it is used it is used in that way . The word thousand years is used the same way to represent a unknown as to whatsoever is in view to include time. (God does not give numbers). He desires men walk by faith .Christ will come as thief in the night .We have the privilege to watch like Noah.

Psalm 90:4For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Ecclesiastes 6:6Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

2 Peter 3:8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Mankind was created as a beast of the field? Where, exactly does the Bible say that?

You aren't even teaching Amillennialism here, you are teaching some kind of arcane numerology.

 

[garee]

Mankind was created as a beast of the field? Where, exactly does the Bible say that?

You aren't even teaching Amillennialism here, you are teaching some kind of arcane numerology.

Beast of the field is a indication of warm blooded mammals. Fish of the sea another, or fowl of the air . etc

It would seem the Potter even named Adam in respect to the dust of the field. Adam (Earthy; red) A name that gives the idea of the dust of the field mixed with water H20 or what the Potter calls clay .

We can look at the "signified language" of Revelation we are informed informed in verse 1 of chapter one... to set the standard for hearing God as prescribed in 2 Coriorinthians 4:18 ….throughout the whole book. Many literalize the spiritual meaning making it to no effect .

Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of "a man"; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Satan was not formed from the dust of the field he has no form. He a lying spirit . He puts his words in the mouth of serpent or man as dust of the field.

666 is the number of man. There is no way to get around or need. . It is the number of man or it is not? Can't be both.

The number three is used over and over to represent the end of the matter as to what ever is in view. His way of saying "enough" or "that all folks" . You are confusing numerology with parables that use metaphorical words of phrases. .

We must compare the things seen the temporal to that not seen the eternal if we are to discover the things hid from natural man (666) .

 

[garee]

We know, without doubt that Amillennialism was formulated during the 4th Century, and we know it was formulated by people, and an organization which was anti-semitic. That is not conjecture, it is fact. Perhaps you could explain to me why anyone would want to entertain any doctrine which grew from anti-semitic roots? Perhaps you could explain to my why it isn't a big deal to defend a doctrine that removes promises made to both Christ, and Israel, and transfer them to another group that never had those things promised to them. Perhaps you could explain, at the same time, why it would be acceptable to engage in that kind of behavior, in regards to scripture. This isn't about you or me being right. It's about getting scripture and the Gospel right. Yes, that's actually a serious matter.

How could anyone know it was the fourth century ? Why not Amil as the words came from God who moved men to reveal His mind? Why fourth century?

What would the gospel seeing it is after no man have to do with the idea of anti-semitic roots.? we do not wretle against flesh and blood and neither are we confirmed by it. We are to know no man after the flesh. Some make that into antichrist roots . The reformation came over two thousand literal years ago.

Are you defending the flesh of a Jew as if it could profit for something? Even when Jesus the Son of man says his own flesh it profits for nothing, zero. . Seeing it is the unseen Spirit that can quicken our souls by giving new spirit life . These bodies we live in are dead .They cannot get any deader.

 

[azamzimtoti]

Luke 21:22 is not saying THIS is the SUM TOTAL of all of prophecy.

Yes it is.

Acts 3:21

speaking to "ye men of Israel," v.12 (unsaved persons as noted in v.13-15,17,19) then states: "whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration of all things

John/Elijah was part of the restoration of all things:

(Mark 9:12 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things. Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected? )

Paul stated that the telos had come upon THEM:

(1 Cor 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.)

G5056 telos tel'-os

from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal);

properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state.

The goal of the ages was achieved in the 1st century AD otherwise the ministry of John the Baptist was a failure.

Now if you think "restore all things" means lions munching on grass, well . . . .

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Paul stated that the telos had come upon THEM:

(1 Cor 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.)

G5056 telos tel'-os

from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal);

properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state.

The goal of the ages was achieved in the 1st century AD […]

I've pointed out the 1 Cor 10:11 verse before, and that it says,

"Now these things happened to them as types and were written for our admonition, to whom the ends [PLURAL] of the ages [PLURAL] are arrived." .... which I've pointed out the DISTINCTIONS amongst the following three phrases:

• "the END [SINGULAR] of the AGES [PLURAL]"
• 
  
• "the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]"
• 
  
• "the ENDS [PLURAL] of the AGES [PLURAL]" (as here)
  

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I've pointed out the 1 Cor 10:11 verse before, and that it says,

"Now these things happened to them as types and were written for our admonition, to whom the ends [PLURAL] of the ages [PLURAL] are arrived."

.... which I've pointed out the DISTINCTIONS amongst the following three phrases:

--"the END [SINGULAR] of the AGES [PLURAL]" - Hebrews 9:26

--"the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" - Matthew 13:39,40,49-50; etc

--"the ENDS [PLURAL] of the AGES [PLURAL]" (as here) - 1 Corinthians 10:11



...they are not referring to the same exact thing.

 

[iamsoandso]

I used 6 only as an example of the difference between Amills and those with a more literal approach, whether it is 6 days of creation or 1000 years of the Millennium.
I didn't expect it to be turned into a crash course on the Kabbalah.

That's not the manner of thinking about the 7 days of creation in Judaism nor early Church millenialism. What they believed is that the seven days were an account of the creation and a prophecy of what would take place across seven thousand years. I.E Genesis 2:4 (toldot/Hebrew) are the generations of the heavens and the earth.

So in Matthew 24:3 "and the end of the age"(one of the three questions) then is answered in Matthew 24:34 by Jesus and of the seven sets of millenniums he was stating when one would end and the next was to begin(which is why he said ,,,but the end is not yet). Search for Papias,Irenaeus,Barnabas,Hippolitus ect. and look at how they saw the seven days. They believed that man would labor six days/six thousand years by the sweat of their brow and rest on the seventh. This is why even the Hebrews follow their calendar and to them it's 5759 instead of 2019(their counting off six thousand years/six days)...

 

[iamsoandso]

lol, I'm past the edit window I meant "5779"....

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I was just popping in here to say that, lol. Hebcal shows "5779".

However, this article, written some time back, shows the Hebrew calendar to be "off" by some 256 years (if I recall):

https://christinprophecy.org/articles/the-jewish-calendar/

"The Jewish Calendar: What Year Is It, and Does It Really Matter?" --Dr David R Reagan

[quoting from article]

"That brings the total difference to 256 years!"



[yep, I did remember correctly, lol]

 

[iamsoandso]

^ I was just popping in here to say that, lol. Hebcal shows "5779".

However, this article, written some time back, shows the Hebrew calendar to be "off" by some 256 years (if I recall):

https://christinprophecy.org/articles/the-jewish-calendar/

"The Jewish Calendar: What Year Is It, and Does It Really Matter?" --Dr David R Reagan

[quoting from article]

"That brings the total difference to 256 years!"



[yep, I did remember correctly, lol]

lol, then there's a reason why Jesus said they could discern the weather but not the times and seasons/time of their visitation(their numbers are off) ...

ps, that pesky 5 minute window,lol

 

[crossnote]

That's not the manner of thinking about the 7 days of creation in Judaism nor early Church millenialism. What they believed is that the seven days were an account of the creation and a prophecy of what would take place across seven thousand years. I.E Genesis 2:4 (toldot/Hebrew) are the generations of the heavens and the earth.

So in Matthew 24:3 "and the end of the age"(one of the three questions) then is answered in Matthew 24:34 by Jesus and of the seven sets of millenniums he was stating when one would end and the next was to begin(which is why he said ,,,but the end is not yet). Search for Papias,Irenaeus,Barnabas,Hippolitus ect. and look at how they saw the seven days. They believed that man would labor six days/six thousand years by the sweat of their brow and rest on the seventh. This is why even the Hebrews follow their calendar and to them it's 5759 instead of 2019(their counting off six thousand years/six days)...

Of course the Hebrews aren't going to start their calendar at the birth of Christ...especially those that reject their Messiah.
But regardless of how the early Church tallied the 6 days, they had a propensity to spiritualize and come up with some bizarre ideas I wouldn't care to hold. In this case the Bereans would give the'thumbs down' signal lol.

Acts 17:11 KJVS
[11] These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Where did they come up with this winner?...

What they believed is that the seven days were an account of the creation and a prophecy of what would take place across seven thousand years. I.E Genesis 2:4 (toldot/Hebrew) are the generations of the heavens and the earth.

 

[iamsoandso]

Of course the Hebrews aren't going to start their calendar at the birth of Christ...especially those that reject their Messiah.
But regardless of how the early Church tallied the 6 days, they had a propensity to spiritualize and come up with some bizarre ideas I wouldn't care to hold. In this case the Bereans would give the'thumbs down' signal lol.

Acts 17:11 KJVS
[11] These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Where did they come up with this winner?...

Never the less it's been about two thousand years of pin the tail on the donkey because of it,lol

 

[iamsoandso]

Of course the Hebrews aren't going to start their calendar at the birth of Christ...especially those that reject their Messiah.
But regardless of how the early Church tallied the 6 days, they had a propensity to spiritualize and come up with some bizarre ideas I wouldn't care to hold. In this case the Bereans would give the'thumbs down' signal lol.

Acts 17:11 KJVS
[11] These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Where did they come up with this winner?...

It's late tonight my friend but tomorrow lets examine the four Gospels from the point our Lord was Crucified until he ascended to heaven and take a very close look at how the disciples reacted to it,,,there's something I want to ask about the Olivet discourse okay?

 

[garee]

I used 6 only as an example of the difference between Amills and those with a more literal approach, whether it is 6 days of creation or 1000 years of the Millennium.
I didn't expect it to be turned into a crash course on the Kabbalah.

Its the principle. not the number. It would seem you were only interested in discrediting them. You assumed that those who used the "signified" understanding as given in the opening verse of Revelation 1:1 as if those who did not believe God gives exact numbers to certain issues so that men will continue to walk by faith the unseen eternal . We can search as for silver or gold the hidden treasures of or new faith as he works with us in us .giving us His understanding that are hid from those who literalize .

Common format as in.... if the first sense make sense stop searching.

 

[crossnote]

Its the principle. not the number. It would seem you were only interested in discrediting them. You assumed that those who used the "signified" understanding as given in the opening verse of Revelation 1:1 as if those who did not believe God gives exact numbers to certain issues so that men will continue to walk by faith the unseen eternal . We can search as for silver or gold the hidden treasures of or new faith as he works with us in us .giving us His understanding that are hid from those who literalize .

Common format as in.... if the first sense make sense stop searching.

Signify in Revelation 1:1 Carries the idea of a signet ring, a witness of what has been said, not to spiritualize the text.

The middle part of your post is just assumptions about me and not worth responding to.

As far as the concept of hidden meanings (in the Jewish understanding.. as Revelation is a very Messianic Book) one must first find the P'shat --simple meaning, then Remez- meaning hinted at, then D'rash-or application, then lastly the Sud -hidden meaning. You don't just jump into a hidden meaning from the plain text.

Read here for a clearer explanation.
http://www.yashanet.com/studies/revstudy/pardes.htm