Apparently the elect obtained it.

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azamzimtoti

azamzimtoti

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(Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was diligently seeking, but the elect obtained it. The rest were hardened)

According to Paul "Israel" was diligently seeking for something, but the elect obtained that something - so what is the something that "Israel was diligently seeking"?
 
U

UnderGrace

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#3
#3
azamzimtoti said:
(Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was diligently seeking, but the elect obtained it. The rest were hardened)

According to Paul "Israel" was diligently seeking for something, but the elect obtained that something - so what is the something that "Israel was diligently seeking"?
Click to expand...

I like what Dr. Martin Lloyd Jones writes on this.....

What they were seeking was right; but here is the terrible lesson, you can be seeking the right thing and yet miss it entirely because you are not seeking it in the right way.
 
azamzimtoti

azamzimtoti

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UnderGrace said:
I like what Dr. Martin Lloyd Jones writes on this.....

What they were seeking was right; but here is the terrible lesson, you can be seeking the right thing and yet miss it entirely because you are not seeking it in the right way.
Click to expand...
Yeah, this is true, but there was more than "salvation' that Israel was seeking, i.e. a King sitting in the temple ruling over the tribes with restoration of the other ten tribes to the kingdom.

Paul said he preached the "hope of Israel" according to the prophets:

(Acts 28:20 So for this reason I have asked to see you and speak with you, for I am bound with this chain because of the hope of Israel.")

(Acts 26:6 a promise that our twelve tribes hope to attain as they earnestly serve God night and day. Concerning this hope the Jews are accusing me, Your Majesty!)

So if Paul stated the the elect were receiving/obtained the promises which "Israel was diligently seeking' then the promises were not understood by Paul to be a literal return of the diaspora with a physical king sitting in a literally physical temple in the physical land.
 
U

UnderGrace

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#5
#5
azamzimtoti said:
Yeah, this is true, but there was more than "salvation' that Israel was seeking, i.e. a King sitting in the temple ruling over the tribes with restoration of the other ten tribes to the kingdom.

Paul said he preached the "hope of Israel" according to the prophets:

(Acts 28:20 So for this reason I have asked to see you and speak with you, for I am bound with this chain because of the hope of Israel.")

(Acts 26:6 a promise that our twelve tribes hope to attain as they earnestly serve God night and day. Concerning this hope the Jews are accusing me, Your Majesty!)

So if Paul stated the the elect were receiving/obtained the promises which "Israel was diligently seeking' then the promises were not understood by Paul to be a literal return of the diaspora with a physical king sitting in a literally physical temple in the physical land.
Click to expand...
So maybe Dr. Jones was wrong and they were not seeking the right thing?? hmm....

The "hope of Israel" he refers to in Acts is "Jesus"......so again he is telling them He (Jesus) was their hope not...... the literal physical king in a physical temple. I understand what you mean, the spiritual is far more real/superior than the temporal but they could not see it.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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azamzimtoti said:
According to Paul "Israel" was diligently seeking for something, but the elect obtained that something - so what is the something that "Israel was diligently seeking"?
Click to expand...
Righteousness.

Righteousness is imputed by grace through faith. Sinners are justified by grace through faith, not by works of righteousness which we have done.
 
theanointedwinner

theanointedwinner

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UnderGrace said:
I like what Dr. Martin Lloyd Jones writes on this.....

What they were seeking was right; but here is the terrible lesson, you can be seeking the right thing and yet miss it entirely because you are not seeking it in the right way.
Click to expand...
Amen sister, preach!
 
azamzimtoti

azamzimtoti

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UnderGrace said:
So maybe Dr. Jones was wrong and they were not seeking the right thing?? hmm....

The "hope of Israel" he refers to in Acts is "Jesus"......so again he is telling them He (Jesus) was their hope not...... the literal physical king in a physical temple. I understand what you mean, the spiritual is far more real/superior than the temporal but they could not see it.
Click to expand...
I dunno about Dr Jones' context.

While Paul in Romans is speaking specifically about salvation through Jesus, his message was fulfillment of the promises (all) to the fathers.

If we look at Peter's statements the promises were being fulfilled which included Christ on David's throne, not a physical earthly throne:

(Acts 2:30 So then, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne)

(Acts 3:25 You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your ancestors, saying to Abraham, 'And in your descendants all the nations of the earth will be blessed.'

So what Peter is claiming is a spiritual/heavenly fulfillment, he is not looking towards a future physical throne on earth.

(Acts 15:14-17 Simeon has explained how God first concerned himself to select from among the Gentiles a people for his name. The words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written After this I will return, and I will rebuild the fallen tent of David; I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, so that the rest of humanity may seek the Lord, namely, all the Gentiles I have called to be my own,' says the Lord, who makes these things )

In the above James is quoting Amos 9:11-12 as written in the Septuagint. This means that Amos' prophecy was coming true in his day and he is also understanding the prophecies in a spiritual/heavenly sense.
 
GracethroughfaithinChrist

GracethroughfaithinChrist

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Romans 11:5-7
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
 
GracethroughfaithinChrist

GracethroughfaithinChrist

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azamzimtoti said:
(Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was diligently seeking, but the elect obtained it. The rest were hardened)

According to Paul "Israel" was diligently seeking for something, but the elect obtained that something - so what is the something that "Israel was diligently seeking"?
Click to expand...
Mercy, grace, life, and righteousness in Christ, through faith in Christ.

Ephesians 2:4-9
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us,


5Even when we were dead in sins, has made us alive together with Christ, (by grace you are saved;)


6And has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


7That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.


8For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 
theanointedwinner

theanointedwinner

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#11
I have a gift, I can predict the future of this thread, this thread might be able to be as large as the "not by works" thread
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

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#12
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#12
azamzimtoti said:
(Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was diligently seeking, but the elect obtained it. The rest were hardened)

According to Paul "Israel" was diligently seeking for something, but the elect obtained that something - so what is the something that "Israel was diligently seeking"?
Click to expand...
Israel may be translated as to rule with Yahweh, with God. They did not attain this, not all however the explanation lies in the following.

The children of Israel, while in thewilderness were disobedient, and by their disobedience salvation was gained by the nations.

All with the faith of Abraham attain. Some are called by the Good Shepherd from the Original Flock, while the rest are entered through the Gate to be with the original. Two flocks made one.

We gentiles are of the other flock and are adopted to be heirs with the original. Keep in mind many say theyu are Jews and are not..
 
posthuman

posthuman

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#13
Jul 31, 2013
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#13
azamzimtoti said:
(Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was diligently seeking, but the elect obtained it. The rest were hardened)

According to Paul "Israel" was diligently seeking for something, but the elect obtained that something - so what is the something that "Israel was diligently seeking"?
Click to expand...
just a few verses further..

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.
(Romans 11:11) ​
​
we have this situation where God has made Israel jealous ((like He said He would -- Deut. 32:21, which Paul quotes in Romans 10:19))
-- the word 'diligently seeking' here in Romans 11:7 is translated 'desire' in Philippians 4:17 -- we're talking about the same thing here.
jealousy occurs when you desire something, you don't have it, but someone else has.
so what is Israel jealous of?
salvation has come to the Gentiles.

in John 5, Jesus tells some of those hardened Israelites to search the scriptures, that they testify of Him. and He testifies that they believe eternal life is found in them.

eternal life? rest for your soul? salvation.
it is come to the Gentiles - to the elect among all peoples - even a people which is not a people ((Deut. 32:21 again)) -- and thereby made Israel envious.
 
A

Adstar

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Jul 24, 2016
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#14
azamzimtoti said:
(Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was diligently seeking, but the elect obtained it. The rest were hardened)

According to Paul "Israel" was diligently seeking for something, but the elect obtained that something - so what is the something that "Israel was diligently seeking"?
Click to expand...
The favour of God.. His Grace..
 
U

UnderGrace

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#15
#15
posthuman said:
just a few verses further..

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.​
(Romans 11:11) ​
​
we have this situation where God has made Israel jealous ((like He said He would -- Deut. 32:21, which Paul quotes in Romans 10:19))
-- the word 'diligently seeking' here in Romans 11:7 is translated 'desire' in Philippians 4:17 -- we're talking about the same thing here.
jealousy occurs when you desire something, you don't have it, but someone else has.
so what is Israel jealous of?
salvation has come to the Gentiles.

in John 5, Jesus tells some of those hardened Israelites to search the scriptures, that they testify of Him. and He testifies that they believe eternal life is found in them.

eternal life? rest for your soul? salvation.
it is come to the Gentiles - to the elect among all peoples - even a people which is not a people ((Deut. 32:21 again)) -- and thereby made Israel envious.
Click to expand...
I am a little confused because, I am thinking were they really desiring spiritual salvation/rest?

Scripture makes it clear in so many places that many of the Jews were looking for an earthly kingdom.....so why would Paul write this ....in reality it seems more like the Jews were seeking but it was the wrong thing.

So if it is not what they were seeking (salvation) why would they be jealous?
 
posthuman

posthuman

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UnderGrace said:
I am a little confused because, I am thinking were they really desiring spiritual salvation/rest?

Scripture makes it clear in so many places that many of the Jews were looking for an earthly kingdom.....so why would Paul write this ....in reality it seems more like the Jews were seeking but it was the wrong thing.

So if it is not what they were seeking (salvation) why would they be jealous?
Click to expand...

no, you're right, they were - and still are - but they sought it as though something to be gained. through their fall, the Lord gave it to us as a gift, as it should be

it's what i was saying, that they sought salvation - which is rest, which is eternal life. which is THE KING OF KINGS and to know Him
 
U

UnderGrace

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posthuman said:
no, you're right, they were - and still are - but they sought it as though something to be gained. through their fall, the Lord gave it to us as a gift, as it should be

it's what i was saying, that they sought salvation - which is rest, which is eternal life. which is THE KING OF KINGS and to know Him
Click to expand...
Yes I see something "to be gained"

I just find the statement that Paul makes confusing from one vantage point but then from the other vantage point it does line up with everything else he is writing to the Romans.
 
azamzimtoti

azamzimtoti

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#18
Paul is stating that the Gentiles were partaking in the covenant promises from the prophets:

(Eph 2:12 that you were at that time without the Messiah, alienated from the citizenship of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.)

(Eph 2:20 because you have been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone.)

The above puts the claim of a separate future promise to "Israel" into question.

The predicted Messianic temple was already in place with Christ as the cornerstone and apostolic foundation.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

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#19
Jul 2, 2011
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#19
azamzimtoti said:
Paul is stating that the Gentiles were partaking in the covenant promises from the prophets:

(Eph 2:12 that you were at that time without the Messiah, alienated from the citizenship of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.)

(Eph 2:20 because you have been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone.)

The above puts the claim of a separate future promise to "Israel" into question.

The predicted Messianic temple was already in place with Christ as the cornerstone and apostolic foundation.
Click to expand...
You have inadvertently responded to your question in you post.
 
U

UnderGrace

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#20
JaumeJ said:
You have inadvertently responded to your question in you post.
Click to expand...
Perhaps not inadvertently....me thinks Mr. Azam has done his homework.
 
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