Not By Works
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EVEN THE LITTLE THINGS, just like a very close Friend.
Romans 8:27-28 (NKJV)
27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
Matthew 6:31-34 (NCV)
31 Don’t worry and say, ’What will we eat?’ or ’What will we drink?’ or ’What will we wear?’
32 The people who don’t know God keep trying to get these things, and your Father in heaven knows you need them.
33 The thing you should want most is God’s kingdom and doing what God wants. Then all these other things you need will be given to you.
34 So don’t worry about tomorrow, because tomorrow will have its own worries. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
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Hi dcon, thanks for the analogy, it is a blessing.
self saving dogma - the idea that Jesus empowers us by the Holy Spirit to walk in His ways, is what you
are attacking. And in truth, how can anyone distinguish in another, those whose hearts worship the living
God, and those who just appear so, only God can. And that is what Jesus says, we are to leave it alone.
Betrayal is a hard thing, Judas in our midst. Yet Jesus just loved and let what God had ordained play out.
We are to have faith in Jesus, the cross, love, openness, walking in the light, and to follow Him.
Those who do not believe, whose hearts are hard and cannot change will find this impossible, the fragrance
of death, and continually oppose that Jesus calls us to love and forgive from the heart.
Wherever we are in Jesus, His ways are always a challenge, each day, to carry our cross,
13 Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
15 All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently,
that too God will make clear to you.
Phil 3
So my friend, I exhort you to follow Jesus, for I know not what is in your heart, just that I love the Lord and
desire to know His love and truth more fully in my life, Amen
self saving dogma - the idea that Jesus empowers us by the Holy Spirit to walk in His ways, is what you
are attacking. And in truth, how can anyone distinguish in another, those whose hearts worship the living
God, and those who just appear so, only God can. And that is what Jesus says, we are to leave it alone.
Betrayal is a hard thing, Judas in our midst. Yet Jesus just loved and let what God had ordained play out.
We are to have faith in Jesus, the cross, love, openness, walking in the light, and to follow Him.
Those who do not believe, whose hearts are hard and cannot change will find this impossible, the fragrance
of death, and continually oppose that Jesus calls us to love and forgive from the heart.
Wherever we are in Jesus, His ways are always a challenge, each day, to carry our cross,
13 Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
15 All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently,
that too God will make clear to you.
Phil 3
So my friend, I exhort you to follow Jesus, for I know not what is in your heart, just that I love the Lord and
desire to know His love and truth more fully in my life, Amen
6 Many a man claims to have unfailing love, but a faithful man who can find?
7 The righteous man leads a blameless life; blessed are his children after him.
Prov 20
Here is the dilemma, knowing what we would like to be, while living with our current limitations,
but pressing forward to know the promise God has given us, and knowing the work He is doing in our hearts.
And the goal is to walk like Jesus, to know His love and will, to be in communion with Him.
We do not know what we are, but if we commit ourselves to Jesus we know what we will become in Him.
7 The righteous man leads a blameless life; blessed are his children after him.
Prov 20
Here is the dilemma, knowing what we would like to be, while living with our current limitations,
but pressing forward to know the promise God has given us, and knowing the work He is doing in our hearts.
And the goal is to walk like Jesus, to know His love and will, to be in communion with Him.
We do not know what we are, but if we commit ourselves to Jesus we know what we will become in Him.
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Hi gb9,
I do wonder at these definitions. Salvation is to know Jesus and walk with Him.
No one earns this walk, it is a gift accepted in the heart of a believer.
I hope you can answer this question. You are addressing these points to me. I have not changed
what or how or why I believe. I am committed to faith is our salvation, and to discovering how we can walk
deeper and in a mature fashion in Jesus. The reason is I know Jesus is the source of life and healing for
all. Why do you keep asking for affirmation of what I have already declared?
The strangest experience for me, was to discover, I was using the same arguments the apostles use.
This one word "love" is so hard for us to grasp. And probably because it means so much to us, is wrapped up
in our childhood, our families, our deepest motivations and often our strongest defence.
And I respect those who are careful, who want to question, challenge and defend good things in good ways.
So my friend, be strong and walk in the way of Jesus, and you will find His blessing, Amen.
I do wonder at these definitions. Salvation is to know Jesus and walk with Him.
No one earns this walk, it is a gift accepted in the heart of a believer.
I hope you can answer this question. You are addressing these points to me. I have not changed
what or how or why I believe. I am committed to faith is our salvation, and to discovering how we can walk
deeper and in a mature fashion in Jesus. The reason is I know Jesus is the source of life and healing for
all. Why do you keep asking for affirmation of what I have already declared?
The strangest experience for me, was to discover, I was using the same arguments the apostles use.
This one word "love" is so hard for us to grasp. And probably because it means so much to us, is wrapped up
in our childhood, our families, our deepest motivations and often our strongest defence.
And I respect those who are careful, who want to question, challenge and defend good things in good ways.
So my friend, be strong and walk in the way of Jesus, and you will find His blessing, Amen.
FollowHisSteps can correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding that the holiness movement (at least Wesleyan) does not teach perfection in the sense that those who are sanctified never commit acts of "hamartia", but rather entire sanctification is the work of God whereby the heart is cleansed from sin, producing a pure, undivided love for God, enabling a person to love God with all of their heart, soul, mind and strength and to love neighbor as Himself, and going even further, love neighbor as Christ loved us.
The doctrine of entire sanctification also does not exclude progressive sanctification.
It also does not teach infallibility of the believer.
The doctrine of entire sanctification also does not exclude progressive sanctification.
It also does not teach infallibility of the believer.
I do not hold to all the tenets of "entire sanctification in this life", but I must say here that I have studied it, and your statement is not a an accurate description. Holiness in the Wesleyan tradition teaches entire sanctification FOLLOWS justification, and progressive sanctification continues AFTER one is wholly sanctified.
Entire sanctification means "heart cleansed from sin producing undivided love for God."
Progressive sanctification is growth in character and maturity.
Justification
Wholly sanctified follows justification
Progressive sanctification follows wholly sanctified.
Being wholly sanctified means heart cleansed from sin by God, producing an undivided love for God enabling one to love God will whole heart, soul, mind, and strength.
Whether you agree or disagree with the above, people who hold to this doctrine also hold to sola gratis and sola fidei. (Grace alone and faith alone). Sanctification is a gift received by grace through faith, just as justification is.
Entire sanctification means "heart cleansed from sin producing undivided love for God."
Progressive sanctification is growth in character and maturity.
Justification
Wholly sanctified follows justification
Progressive sanctification follows wholly sanctified.
Being wholly sanctified means heart cleansed from sin by God, producing an undivided love for God enabling one to love God will whole heart, soul, mind, and strength.
Whether you agree or disagree with the above, people who hold to this doctrine also hold to sola gratis and sola fidei. (Grace alone and faith alone). Sanctification is a gift received by grace through faith, just as justification is.
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Another name for entire sanctification is "made perfect in love". It is not sinlessness (they do not say we are without hamartia 1 John 1:8), it is described as a pure, undivided loyalty/love to God in heart and intention. AND they do not teach it as a goal, but rather as a gift to be received.
The effects of progressive sanctification are a goal (growth and maturity), but heart cleansing is a gift that only needs to be received by faith.
The effects of progressive sanctification are a goal (growth and maturity), but heart cleansing is a gift that only needs to be received by faith.
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Faith is our foundation, and its fruit, our walk.
If we stay in faith, we are saved. John exhorts us that if we have faith, it will show in our love and our
behaviour.
If you want to say a creed is lying, please can you be specific or else you are just slandering believers.
Let me be specific.
"We believe that regenerate persons need not return to sin but may live in unbroken fellowship with God through the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit who bears witness with our spirits that we are children of God."
So the church is stating believers need not return to sin, not that in turning to sin they are not saved.
Unfortunately it is not right to miss-represent others, and in regard to Gods grace and forgiveness to sinners who
become saints this is especially important.
Now I believe in the love my brothers and sisters have for Christ, and in the Holy Spirit that works within them.
So let us walk in the light, and talk about this issue you say is a lie, because all lies concern me, especially over
these important issues. God bless you.
If we stay in faith, we are saved. John exhorts us that if we have faith, it will show in our love and our
behaviour.
If you want to say a creed is lying, please can you be specific or else you are just slandering believers.
Let me be specific.
"We believe that regenerate persons need not return to sin but may live in unbroken fellowship with God through the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit who bears witness with our spirits that we are children of God."
So the church is stating believers need not return to sin, not that in turning to sin they are not saved.
Unfortunately it is not right to miss-represent others, and in regard to Gods grace and forgiveness to sinners who
become saints this is especially important.
Now I believe in the love my brothers and sisters have for Christ, and in the Holy Spirit that works within them.
So let us walk in the light, and talk about this issue you say is a lie, because all lies concern me, especially over
these important issues. God bless you.
Calling a believer a deceiver and a liar.
When we are hurt, when something is said that if true, suggests we have something wrong, it
can be easy to lash out and claim the other party is lying and are just doing this to make them
feel good and the others bad.
The other way, is to take all suggestions as true, and want more clarity, so that if there is a lie
or fault it can be put right. This is why being open and honest works, because it avoids failure
and false accusations to stand, and brings to light the truth as to where people stand or should stand.
Our hearts unfortunately always defend themselves with the argument they are just trying to put
us down. In Christ we learn, it is Christ who is true, and knowing Him and His ways sets us free.
So anything that helps us walk better with Him is a blessing.
So resolving issues matters, and using words like deceiver and liar should be avoided.
The previso is some come to sow argument and dissension, where there should be none.
In Jesus though, walking in the light always brings the truth out, Praise the Lord.
When we are hurt, when something is said that if true, suggests we have something wrong, it
can be easy to lash out and claim the other party is lying and are just doing this to make them
feel good and the others bad.
The other way, is to take all suggestions as true, and want more clarity, so that if there is a lie
or fault it can be put right. This is why being open and honest works, because it avoids failure
and false accusations to stand, and brings to light the truth as to where people stand or should stand.
Our hearts unfortunately always defend themselves with the argument they are just trying to put
us down. In Christ we learn, it is Christ who is true, and knowing Him and His ways sets us free.
So anything that helps us walk better with Him is a blessing.
So resolving issues matters, and using words like deceiver and liar should be avoided.
The previso is some come to sow argument and dissension, where there should be none.
In Jesus though, walking in the light always brings the truth out, Praise the Lord.
It all boils down to how one defines the term, "entire sanctification." If one defines it as sinless perfection, then I disagree with that tenet. I was commenting on gb9's comment against being granted salvation only after one gets their walk correct, which implies reaching a stage in progressive sanctification in regards to growth in character and maturity (even entire sanctification) before one is saved. That is what I'm guarding against, in which the end result of that would be salvation by works.
I've heard those who teach sinless perfection say that if we do not reach sinless perfection in our lifetime (and basically define that as entire sanctification) then we won't be saved. That would be performance based works salvation. Becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event (1 Corinthians 6:11) yet we also have progressive sanctification (which is an ongoing process) in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts and motives.
I've heard those who teach sinless perfection say that if we do not reach sinless perfection in our lifetime (and basically define that as entire sanctification) then we won't be saved. That would be performance based works salvation. Becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event (1 Corinthians 6:11) yet we also have progressive sanctification (which is an ongoing process) in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts and motives.
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I take no pleasure in saying strong words, but Jesus, Paul, Peter, etc.. used strong words at times.
there is one way to be saved- believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. no one comes to the Father except through Him.
anyone, any church, and " movement " that pushes another way is lie. if any are doing it on purpose, then it is deceptive lie.
your church and it's man-made teachings, using out-of-context verses and ignoring word definitions , are wrong, because they offer another way, which does not exist.
there is one way to be saved- believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. no one comes to the Father except through Him.
anyone, any church, and " movement " that pushes another way is lie. if any are doing it on purpose, then it is deceptive lie.
your church and it's man-made teachings, using out-of-context verses and ignoring word definitions , are wrong, because they offer another way, which does not exist.
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Hi gb9,
You are claiming various things without stating what you actually mean.
I cannot say you are right or wrong without these statements.
I hope you understand content is the only way anyone can validate what you are claiming.
And it is possible you are mistaken. Based on what you are declaring you believe, it appears
you are mistaken.
Now if it truth you are just someone who dismisses things, then unfortunately it does not help
anyone grow in understanding or grace, rather it is just unhelpful. God bless you.
On a positive front, why type of church do you attend and theological position you hold to,
reformed, calvanistic, armenian, NAR, new age, baptist, methodist? This helps understanding
where you are coming from, when differences can become obscured by discussions on areas
one agrees, where others highlight a very different theology.
I once read a long statement of faith, and only at the end, when they started praising one
prophet and the end time message, one knew it was way out there, but superficially seemed
very orthodox.
On this front, dcon said he opposed the majority of churches and their theology, so clearly
he admitted to a small minority perspective.
You are claiming various things without stating what you actually mean.
I cannot say you are right or wrong without these statements.
I hope you understand content is the only way anyone can validate what you are claiming.
And it is possible you are mistaken. Based on what you are declaring you believe, it appears
you are mistaken.
Now if it truth you are just someone who dismisses things, then unfortunately it does not help
anyone grow in understanding or grace, rather it is just unhelpful. God bless you.
On a positive front, why type of church do you attend and theological position you hold to,
reformed, calvanistic, armenian, NAR, new age, baptist, methodist? This helps understanding
where you are coming from, when differences can become obscured by discussions on areas
one agrees, where others highlight a very different theology.
I once read a long statement of faith, and only at the end, when they started praising one
prophet and the end time message, one knew it was way out there, but superficially seemed
very orthodox.
On this front, dcon said he opposed the majority of churches and their theology, so clearly
he admitted to a small minority perspective.