Who understands and can explain the meaning of Romans 9:3-4?

[posthuman]

Israel did have other Gods and so were ineligible for remarriage, but then there was the Cross! Their Creator/King/ex-husband was to be killed to regain them!

The law doesn't make a divorced adultress clean by the death of her husband.

Deuteronomy 24:1-4
If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD. Do not bring sin upon the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.

God calls remarriage to a woman that you have divorced, who has had a second husband, detestable.


There is something far different goo g on here.
Unless Israel herself dies she cannot be fit for Him.
As the apostle wrote, we, a people who were never a people to begin with, taken from all nations and peoples, not taken just from the children of Jacob, are pledged a vigin bride. Not a divorced and adulterous one taken back in her filthiness.

 

[SimpleGardner]

He also said He would make Israel jealous by a people who is not a people. In Deuteronomy. Before any separation of the nation, before any captivity.

He also called Egypt His people and Assyria His handiwork.

What do you think, I should get a DNA test, and if I am not semetic, I can just forget about Christ since salvation is according to the descendancy of the flesh?

He has said, the flesh profits nothing. He has said, the children of Abraham are those who are children by faith, not according to flesh. He has said He can raise up children of Abraham out of stones.

I think everyone has the wrong Idea about salvation. Remember that through Abrahams seed all the nations of the earth will be blessed. "Through" being the key word. The end of all Gods works will be an earth and all its Kingdoms/governments under His laws. Orderly, lawful, at peace. This is the blessing all man or the "Nations" are groaning for. This is the desired "Revealing" of the "sons of God" / Israel. Through Israel, God will order His Kingdom on Earth once again, and through that Kingdom He will order the Nations of the earth and through this order, all the nations of the earth will be blessed! This action is synonomous with the destruction of the "Beast System" which has run it's course, been given its opportunity to rule the earth in righteousness which it has failed to do.

Could the Assyrians and the Egyptians God refers to as His handiwork be more reasonable and righteous than the Israelites? Possibly, and isn't this the priority all men should have over being counted among the Israelites? The Israelites are a genetic line who despite their failings have been chosen to be Gods representatives here on earth. We are told what to "seek first" and being counted among the "redeemed" is not the first item. All a man can do literally, no matter his race, creed, stature etc is "fear God and keep His commandments" this is the whole duty of man. Seeking status and position in the heavens is not ours to give or take.

God says we must humble ourselves, He will do the exalting.

The law doesn't make a divorced adultress clean by the death of her husband.

Deuteronomy 24:1-4
If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD. Do not bring sin upon the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.

God calls remarriage to a woman that you have divorced, who has had a second husband, detestable.


There is something far different goo g on here.
Unless Israel herself dies she cannot be fit for Him.
As the apostle wrote, we, a people who were never a people to begin with, taken from all nations and peoples, not taken just from the children of Jacob, are pledged a vigin bride. Not a divorced and adulterous one taken back in her filthiness.

She is considered "detestable to the man she was first married to. But, If Jesus died and was resurrected a new man then the law is no longer applicable. The law does not infer that she is detestable to all other men, only the first husband or any previous husband who she would have excluded by marrying another man in the interim.

 

[posthuman]

Good Morning,

Before I answer your question can we start with the fundamental meaning of the word redeemed? I am typing in a friendly tone in case you are thinking I am being aggressive. If you understand it as to: gain or regain possession of (something) in exchange for payment. Then the next logical question is when did God know possess all the other nations?

As I understand it the particular word used in the NT has the connotation of purchasing a slave by paying off their indenture completely, in such a way that the person be came delivered from slavery forever, having the legal status that they could not again be offered for ransom: that is to say, they are removed from the market because they no longer have any debt.

This is as it is said 'to purchase one's freedom' and it means deliverance from the burden of debt and of the servitude associated with that debt.

 

[posthuman]

But, If Jesus died and was resurrected a new man

Well that isn't the case.

Jesus didn't become a different Jesus.
He is the same yesterday today and forever.

 

[posthuman]

She is considered "detestable to the man she was first married to. But, If Jesus died and was resurrected a new man then the law is no longer applicable. The law does not infer that she is detestable to all other men, only the first husband or any previous husband who she would have excluded by marrying another man in the interim.

It says the remarriage is detestable, not the woman.

It is not Christ who becomes a new creature.
It is the one who is found in Him. Israel cannot become His bride unless Israel herself dies and is made new, just like goyim.

 

[SimpleGardner]

It says the remarriage is detestable, not the woman.

It is not Christ who becomes a new creature.
It is the one who is found in Him. Israel cannot become His bride unless Israel herself dies and is made new, just like goyim.

Hebrews 9:15-28 NIV For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. (16) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, (17) because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. (18) This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. (19) When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. (20) He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep." (21) In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. (22) In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. (23) It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. (24) For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. (25) Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. (26) Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. (27) Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, (28) so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

 

[kaylagrl]

The entire Acts book explained one major theme "The Jews rejected Jesus Christ as their messiah". Thus God's plan for the Jews are set aside for the current dispensation of Grace to the Gentiles.

Flabbergasted, you and I agree on this one...

 

[kaylagrl]

So if the Israelites are the chosen people of God, who hath manifest his presence to the Israelites, and have given the covenants to the Israelites, and the laws, statutes, and commandments to the Israelites so that they the Israelites can serve God of Israel, and his promises (salvation, repentance, forgiveness of sins, and the kingdom) to the Israelites, how does any of this fit into the context of Christianity?

You know I went on a Jewish forum once and I politely asked questions about what they believed. I never tried to get them to see the Bible my way. So what is your purpose here?

 

[homwardbound]

However this all pans out, God is Good to us all, even though not anyone deserves his grace in his love and mercy given us by Son once for everyone to turn to him in belief of this love that is unconditional
I think this be what is written from Paul about his deep felt hurt of his people not in yet. As Father knows how to allow and take away, All for his final purpose for all to be saved. As that might be or not, Free Choice continues to abound.
Now that is Love from God to us all, seeing us all as Chosen, For the first chosen could not do the Law perfectly, yet God still is going to save them, upon turning to him as said in acts 20:21
This be just what I see, as Father in Spirit and Truth is out and about every day. To reveal this love for us to turn to him in belief, to be freed from anxiety while in it
Renewing the mindsets in us or worry and stuff
Romans 8:28 and that goes deeper than just those that Love God, for God loved, loves all the same first in Son for us at the cross

That be just what I am seeing in his unconditional Love through Son in his one time death once for all. to reconcile us
So all that willingly believe God, will be and are saved per God not me.
That is the Love I want as in 1 Cor 13:4-7
Thanks for all the views too, I learn from everything taking all to Father in prayer to hear truth over error and have had my mind changed many times except for the forgiveness that is given by Son for us in his one time death once for all whether ion belief yet or not
I see we are saved by his risen Life, reconciled by his one time death first before the new life could be installed into us each in belief
Thanks

 

[garee]

This is the correct understanding of Romans 3:4:

The honor given by God to be his chosen people belong to the Israelites.

The presence of God as manifest through the ark and the temple belongs to the Israelites.

The covenants of God belong to the Israelites

The laws of God were given to the Israelites because they belong to the Israelites.

The service of God through the keeping his laws, statutes, and commandments belong to the Israelites

The promises (Salvation, Repentance, and Forgiveness of Sins, and Kingdom of Heaven) belong to the Israelites.

Paul is emphasizing that all these things belong to Israel not any other nation.

All of Israel are not considered inward born again Jews . If any man has not the eternal Spirit of Christ then neither do they belong to Christ. (Romans 8:9)

All these things belong to Israel as a inward Jew born again Jew. No difference between a born again gentile then a born again Jew. The bride of Christ. He named her Christian a word that denotes (residents of the eternal city of Christ prepared, as His wife). He named her Christian in Acts, she is not in respect to any nation .. Our God is the father of many nations, never one. God used the Jew like Abraham in types and shadows up until the time of reformation. Those who had no faith coming from all things written in the law and the prophets, made that which is seen "walking by sight" the focus of their man made oral traditions that do make the written tradition of God without effect.

 

[posthuman]

Is it logical to think that something that is to be "redeemed" must have once been a possession? Did not God declare in Amos 3:2 that He had never known any other family/nation/race of the earth but those of Israel?

Amos 3:2 may be taken as euphemistic; it is the same verb the scripture uses to describe intercourse. in Hosea 4:15 He declares that Israel has been adulterous -- it is a common way among the prophets that God speaks about idolatry.

all the nations belong to Him, not just Israel --

Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are Your inheritance
(Psalm 82:8)​

which, btw speaking of the Son, it says:

I will proclaim the decree​

spoken to Me by the LORD:​

You are My Son;​

today I have become Your Father.​

Ask Me, and I will make the nations Your inheritance,​

the ends of the earth Your possession.
(Psalm 2:7-8)
​

so this is another proof that Christ is God

 

[SimpleGardner]

Amos 3:2 may be taken as euphemistic; it is the same verb the scripture uses to describe intercourse. in Hosea 4:15 He declares that Israel has been adulterous -- it is a common way among the prophets that God speaks about idolatry.

all the nations belong to Him, not just Israel --

Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are Your inheritance​

(Psalm 82:8)​

which, btw speaking of the Son, it says:

I will proclaim the decree​

spoken to Me by the LORD:​

You are My Son;​

today I have become Your Father.​

Ask Me, and I will make the nations Your inheritance,​

the ends of the earth Your possession.​

(Psalm 2:7-8) ​

​

so this is another proof that Christ is God

Greetings posthuman,

You won't find me in the camp pf "Other Nation Haters" else I would be outside the will of YHWH! The Spirit of YHWH has identified entire nations who were evildoers in the past though! Evildoers is another story!

Great verse Psalm 82:8! I might retort that while all the nations are His inheritance there is a difference between the one nation (actually 13 yet grouped under Jacob at the present) that He has "Known" and the others. The nuances of Jacobs destiny/troubles etc differs considerably from the rest of the nations. Hey, This was Gods choice which he has regretted at times but will not repent of because of His promises to Abraham and David, etc etc.

Regarding Psalm 2:7-8

Nice to hear back from you

Bless YHWH! Know and Keep...

 

[Guojing]

Flabbergasted, you and I agree on this one...

But yet people still claim there was no difference between the gospel preached to the Jews then, and the gospel preached to both Jews and Gentiles now.

 

[kaylagrl]

But yet people still claim there was no difference between the gospel preached to the Jews then, and the gospel preached to both Jews and Gentiles now.

There wasn't, but let's not derail someone else's thread.

 

[amikamisrael]

@Guojing

Notice in the same scriptures that you quote who Paul is speaking to:

Romans 11:25-26
[25]For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26]And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Who are the brethren he's referring to? To find that out, let's go back to Romans 9:3-4 which states:

Romans 9:3-4
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Oh, his brethren are the Israelites. So he is speaking to his brethren the Israelites. And then again. He's telling his brethren what the mission is:

Romans 10:1
[1]Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Just as Jesus did:

Matthew 15:24
[24]But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The Jews and the Gentiles are his brethren the Israelites. Paul's teaching is the fulfillment of John 7:35


John 7:35

Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

Who are the dispersed among the Gentiles?

Isaiah 11:11-12

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

This is what the New Testament is all about. God of Israel setting forth his hand to do what? To set his hand again to recover whom? The remnant of his people which are obviously the Israelites who are in these other nations. He's trying to assemble whom? The OUTCASTS of Israel and the dispersed of Judah. Is not Judah dispersed amongst the Gentiles? Let's see:

Micah 5:8
And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

Oh the remnant of Israel scattered amongst the Gentiles. So Paul an Israelite is not trying to continue Jesus's ministry of gathering the lost sheep of the house of Israel? God forbid. Of course Paul is continuing Jesus's ministry. Let us not get it confused. The Gentiles in the context Paul is using is simply the lost sheep of Israel who do not know who they are because they have been assimilating to the ways of the other nations. This is the mystery and the blindness that Paul is referring to. Those who are Israel, living amongst other nations, but don't know who they are, he refers to them as Gentiles. So the Jews are the brethren who are still in Judea, and the Gentiles are scattered. That's why Paul wrote letters to other nations and churches. He was trying to reach his brethren who were not still in Judea, those who were the outcasts. This gathering is still happening to this day. But the confusion of other doctrines is continually turning the truth into a plethora of lies.

 

[amikamisrael]

You know I went on a Jewish forum once and I politely asked questions about what they believed. I never tried to get them to see the Bible my way. So what is your purpose here?

Same as everyone else's purpose which is to attempt to reveal (or gain) the correct understanding of the scriptures. Have you asked other members what their purpose is for being here as well or am I being singled out? If so what is the reason? Am I doing anything that much different from what anyone else is doing? Is not attempting to reveal (or gain) the correct understanding the goal of a subset of users here? Showing what the bible says is not my way. Nothing I have revealed is about me. Quoting scripture and revealing its true meaning is what I see everyone trying to do. Show me where I have done anything different.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Romans 9:3-4 states:
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

It appears no one has actually addressed Pauls heart being expressed here.
Paul paints a picture that the people of God, His vine, fell into unbelief and disobedience even though they
were the people of promise. They were then rejected by God, and we as gentiles could be grafted in to the vine
and become part of the people of God.

He develops the idea, that through Israels failure, opportunity was given to us to become part of the people of God.
So he takes it further suggesting if by unbelief Paul could bring his brothers and sisters in Israel into the Kingdom
he would. He goes on to say in the end some in Israel will finally turn to the Lord, before the end.

 

[garee]

It appears no one has actually addressed Pauls heart being expressed here.
Paul paints a picture that the people of God, His vine, fell into unbelief and disobedience even though they
were the people of promise. They were then rejected by God, and we as gentiles could be grafted in to the vine
and become part of the people of God.

He develops the idea, that through Israels failure, opportunity was given to us to become part of the people of God.
So he takes it further suggesting if by unbelief Paul could bring his brothers and sisters in Israel into the Kingdom
he would. He goes on to say in the end some in Israel will finally turn to the Lord, before the end.

Yes for I wish, is establishing the law. It cannot be. Not wish-able, but is faith-able according to the work of Christ faith. (believe.)

 

[Guojing]

@Guojing

Oh the remnant of Israel scattered amongst the Gentiles. So Paul an Israelite is not trying to continue Jesus's ministry of gathering the lost sheep of the house of Israel? God forbid. Of course Paul is continuing Jesus's ministry. Let us not get it confused. The Gentiles in the context Paul is using is simply the lost sheep of Israel who do not know who they are because they have been assimilating to the ways of the other nations. This is the mystery and the blindness that Paul is referring to. Those who are Israel, living amongst other nations, but don't know who they are, he refers to them as Gentiles. So the Jews are the brethren who are still in Judea, and the Gentiles are scattered. That's why Paul wrote letters to other nations and churches. He was trying to reach his brethren who were not still in Judea, those who were the outcasts. This gathering is still happening to this day. But the confusion of other doctrines is continually turning the truth into a plethora of lies.

So you are saying you believe Paul is NOT the apostle to the Gentiles, like what almost everyone here believes in?

 

[kaylagrl]

Same as everyone else's purpose which is to attempt to reveal (or gain) the correct understanding of the scriptures.

Time will tell..


Have you asked other members what their purpose is for being here as well or am I being singled out?

No you're not special, if I smell error or false doctrine I call it out.


If so what is the reason? Am I doing anything that much different from what anyone else is doing? Is not attempting to reveal (or gain) the correct understanding the goal of a subset of users here?

Usually, but not always.


Showing what the bible says is not my way. Nothing I have revealed is about me. Quoting scripture and revealing its true meaning is what I see everyone trying to do. Show me where I have done anything different.