Poison

[Lanolin]

It was their sin of DISOBEDIENCE for which the penalty was death (physical and spiritual). That tree was there simply for testing them. The fruit may have been perfectly fine.

Why do you say 'the fruit may have been perfectly fine'. Isnt that what The serpent hinted.
Seems silly for GOd to warn adam and eve about it when he clearly said if they did eat of it, they would surely die.
GOd did not warn adam and eve about the serpent. He did not say, oh by the way, dont talk or listen to the serpent. Hes crafty.

Jesus also talks about good trees and corrupt trees in the NT.
Our God isnt a tyrant who just makes up random rules wanting us to completely obey just cos hes testing our love. Hes bigger than that. GOd put the man in the garden to dress it and keep it. He didnt plant a garden randomly. He grew every tree that was 'pleasant to the sight and good for food'.

Do you know anything about fruit trees? Do you know about picking fruit before its ready? Unripe fruit is sour and tastes bad. Do you know that today, if you eat fruit thats been sprayed with toxic chemicals, you could be eating that ingesting that chemical...? Fruit thats been sprayed has to have a withholding period, nobody can harvest it for days after its been sprayed. Why because its toxic.

 

[he-rat_of_the_circus-mice]

We can clearly see that Eve thought she had received a man ‘from the LORD’ because she was unaware of where Cain came from (having yet ‘to know’ or ‘have sexual intercourse’ with Adam). She was beguiled with the impregnation of Cain by the serpent. The text is very clear that she againbare Abel when Adam officially knew his wife.

My understanding was that the original text does not have the word 'from' in it. Eve, knowing God's promise that He would provide a Messiah through 'her seed', believed that she had given birth to "the LORD".

 

[garee]

What does the bible say about using poison.
How different is using poison to kill someone than simply slaying them. Is there a difference?

Am just thinking of all the pesticide and herbicide use that goes on today. And maybe why God warned adam and eve about the tree of knowledge of good and evil, was that the fruit was poisonous. Some poisons are quick acting, but many are slow acting, and go right into the food chain. Which is why so many people die of cancer and horrible degenerative diseases these days.
For example if you use a bait to poison say slugs and snails, the birds that eat the slugs and snails will end up getting poisoned too, and the predators that eat the birds. That is why when killing meat for consumption, butchers dont go and poison the animals. These poisons can also get into the drinking water. And the air we breathe. Why not just kill the slugs and snails by hand.

Alcohol is also a poison. It might not work straight away but over time regular consumption ends up killing people.
You would think people would know better, but some people enjoy the intoxicating effects. But some people drink it cos they really want to die, or maybe kill a few brain cells.

Euthansasia also uses poison to kill people off. Its not like anyone who asks for euthansia gets a shot to the head. The thing with poisons is that it could actually taste good if its disgised in something else. Thats why most household poisons have a bitter taste put in them so babies and children dont accidently drink it.
But then Why would you even need to use poisons in your household, surely theres non toxic ways to do everything.

Anyway just wondering what the Bible has to say about it. As we know snakes can be poisonous and Jesus did call the Pharisees vipers.

Poison represents false doctrine as does a brood of vipers (called fathers) represent false apostles .Men sent with another gospel after another mediator other than Christ alone.as the oral traditions of men. Those kind of traditions have the power to kill the word of God by making it, his tradition, as it is written(sola scriptura) without effect.

No man can serve two teaching masters as gospels. . This can be seen in the garden the foundation of the use of poison to represent another gospel, another Christ .faith died.

Poison is one of a group metaphors that accompany all that have been given the faith of Christ by which they can then believe God. It works all together as one sign that follows. Some have turned the metaphor upside down and they literally seek after what the sign represent. Some even drank poison and accredited it to faith making themselves martyrs .

Its the gospel that cast out demons. The gospel is the new tongue. It can raise the dead to new life. It can heal the sickness that came about because of the poison of the oral tradition as false doctrines of men

Mark 16:16-18 King James Version (KJV) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they (by the power of the gospel) cast out devils; they (by the power of the gospel) shall speak with new tongues; They (by the power of the gospel) shall take up serpents; and if they (by the power of the gospel) drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they (by the power of the gospel) shall lay hands on the sick, and they(by the power of the gospel the power of faith ) shall recover.

 

[Lanolin]

My understanding was that the original text does not have the word 'from' in it. Eve, knowing God's promise that He would provide a Messiah through 'her seed', believed that she had given birth to "the LORD".

Im not really sure why she says that is she referring to Cain, or to Adam, and why doesnt she say it about Abel. Plus Cain would have been a baby boy, why did she say i have gotten a man..i presume he wasnt fully grown!

Its clear that adam knew eve and then conceived and bare Cain, says right in the Bible, so dont know where people are getting the idea that eve knew the serpent and cain was like the love- child of a serpent-human union.

 

[garee]

Why do you say 'the fruit may have been perfectly fine'. Isnt that what The serpent hinted.
Seems silly for GOd to warn adam and eve about it when he clearly said if they did eat of it, they would surely die.
GOd did not warn adam and eve about the serpent. He did not say, oh by the way, dont talk or listen to the serpent. Hes crafty.

Jesus also talks about good trees and corrupt trees in the NT.
Our God isnt a tyrant who just makes up random rules wanting us to completely obey just cos hes testing our love. Hes bigger than that. GOd put the man in the garden to dress it and keep it. He didnt plant a garden randomly. He grew every tree that was 'pleasant to the sight and good for food'.

Do you know anything about fruit trees? Do you know about picking fruit before its ready? Unripe fruit is sour and tastes bad. Do you know that today, if you eat fruit thats been sprayed with toxic chemicals, you could be eating that ingesting that chemical...? Fruit thats been sprayed has to have a withholding period, nobody can harvest it for days after its been sprayed. Why because its toxic.

I don't think the fruit was evil as a poison. What was drinking in poison is desireing to do the will of a voice of a creature seen . God did not desire they experience violating the commandment . He desired they walk by faith .The source of faith departed.

While it remains a mystery we do not know what the affect of food had before corruption came seeming on the third day. Day four begins the under the sun period. Using both time keepers one the Sun to regulate day as in light to represent that which is good (God) and the reflection the moon used to govern darkness as a created evil to those who refuse to believe God not seen. The faithless.

The punishment was to give a work that would be relentless. The new food is said to; "It shall not forever more to yield unto mankind her strength".

And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.Geneisis 4

13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.1 Corinthian6:13

Something changed ? Did food then become a need? Both will be destroyed.

A question to challenge faith. Will eating food be necessary when we receive our new incorruptible bodies? or will it be like with Jesus . He has food that the disciple knew not of.... doing the will of God as should of mankind but they failed when they ate the forbidden fruit ? Will the new creation starve to death?

 

[Tinkerbell725]

Im not really sure why she says that is she referring to Cain, or to Adam, and why doesnt she say it about Abel. Plus Cain would have been a baby boy, why did she say i have gotten a man..i presume he wasnt fully grown!

Its clear that adam knew eve and then conceived and bare Cain, says right in the Bible, so dont know where people are getting the idea that eve knew the serpent and cain was like the love- child of a serpent-human union.

Their Births

It is a well-known fact that Jacob and Esau were twins, but what is not commonly known is that Cain and Abel were also twins. In the normal Hebraic accounting of multiple births the conception then birth of each child is mentioned such as we can see in Genesis 29:32-33 where it states that Leah conceived and bore a son, and then she conceived again and bore a son. Note that there are two conceptions and two births. But notice how it is worded in Genesis 4:1-2.

Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain; And again, she bore his brother Abel. (RSV)

Notice that there is only one conception, but two births. The Hebrew word for "again" is asaph, meaning to add something, in this case the birthing of Abel was added to the birthing of Cain. Cain and Abel were twins.

Gen 4:1-2

4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/m/articles_cainandabel.html

 

[FollowHisSteps]

What does the bible say about using poison.
How different is using poison to kill someone than simply slaying them. Is there a difference?

Am just thinking of all the pesticide and herbicide use that goes on today. And maybe why God warned adam and eve about the tree of knowledge of good and evil, was that the fruit was poisonous. Some poisons are quick acting, but many are slow acting, and go right into the food chain. Which is why so many people die of cancer and horrible degenerative diseases these days.
For example if you use a bait to poison say slugs and snails, the birds that eat the slugs and snails will end up getting poisoned too, and the predators that eat the birds. That is why when killing meat for consumption, butchers dont go and poison the animals. These poisons can also get into the drinking water. And the air we breathe. Why not just kill the slugs and snails by hand.

Alcohol is also a poison. It might not work straight away but over time regular consumption ends up killing people.
You would think people would know better, but some people enjoy the intoxicating effects. But some people drink it cos they really want to die, or maybe kill a few brain cells.

Euthansasia also uses poison to kill people off. Its not like anyone who asks for euthansia gets a shot to the head. The thing with poisons is that it could actually taste good if its disgised in something else. Thats why most household poisons have a bitter taste put in them so babies and children dont accidently drink it.
But then Why would you even need to use poisons in your household, surely theres non toxic ways to do everything.

Anyway just wondering what the Bible has to say about it. As we know snakes can be poisonous and Jesus did call the Pharisees vipers.

Does not the very name describe what is sensible to do? Poison is to be avoided.
We have a duty of care, loving individuals, to keep poison safe and make it only available
where appropriate. But this is true of all dangerous things and activity.

It falls under "love your neighbour as you love yourself."

 

[Lanolin]

Does not the very name describe what is sensible to do? Poison is to be avoided.
We have a duty of care, loving individuals, to keep poison safe and make it only available
where appropriate. But this is true of all dangerous things and activity.

It falls under "love your neighbour as you love yourself."

So where does the bible say its appropriate to use poison?

 

[he-rat_of_the_circus-mice]

Im not really sure why she says that is she referring to Cain, or to Adam, and why doesnt she say it about Abel.

In Genesis 3, after Adam and Eve sin, God talks about the Messiah.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

So in Genesis 4 when Eve named Cain, I think Eve understood God's promise that the Messiah was to come from her seed (and by her naming of Cain, understood that the Messiah was to be God Himself), but was expecting Him to be the one she gave birth to.

Plus Cain would have been a baby boy, why did she say i have gotten a man..i presume he wasnt fully grown!

Lol. Perhaps giving birth to a full-grown man was how Eve's pain in childbirth was greatly increased? I would guess the "man" statement either means male child or child.

Its clear that adam knew eve and then conceived and bare Cain, says right in the Bible, so dont know where people are getting the idea that eve knew the serpent and cain was like the love- child of a serpent-human union.

From Genesis 3:15. They are making the same mistake Eve did. Eve's seed (in the prophecy) was conceived through the Holy Spirit. It's presumed the devil's seed is conceived through the devil. Eve believed she was giving birth to the Messiah; she gave birth to Cain, who serpent-seed doctrine adherents believe was the devil's seed. Like you say, scripture clearly refutes this.

 

[he-rat_of_the_circus-mice]

So where does the bible say its appropriate to use poison?

I think someone said alcohol is a poison, but its probably not a very strong one.

Proverbs 31:6-7
Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

 

[Lanolin]

I think someone said alcohol is a poison, but its probably not a very strong one.

Proverbs 31:6-7
Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

Hmm ok I wonder if God does really approve of bartenders then.
I dont actually know of any christian bartenders...? They could be doing a service.

 

[Tinkerbell725]

Cain was the first nephilim. He was the seed of satan. The Bible does not say everything but all we know is that the devil beguiled/seduced Eve. What happened after that is superfecundation. Conceiving twins from different fathers.

1 John 3:12

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Gen 3:15

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed (antichrist) and her seed (Christ); it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


2 Cor 11:2-3

2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.


John 8:44

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

[he-rat_of_the_circus-mice]

Cain was the first nephilim. He was the seed of satan. The Bible does not say everything but all we know is that the devil beguiled/seduced Eve. What happened after that is superfecundation. Conceiving twins from different fathers.

Lanolin already posted the part where Cain came from.

Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

Nothing there about Satan knowing Eve.

3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Do you really think that God would accept an offering from one of Satan's seed? Yet God promised Cain that if he did well, his offering and he would be accepted.

I don't think the Serpent-seed doctrine has any legs.

1 John 3:12

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Note that the passage does not say "because Cain was conceived of the devil", but rather, "because his own works were evil, and Abel's righteous".

Gen 3:15

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed (antichrist) and her seed (Christ); it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Just as Jesus was not born directly from Eve, neither does the devil's seed need to be born directly from her. Christ came some 4000 years later. The nephilim certainly were around before the time of Christ, but the bible speaks clearly that these were the offspring of women and angels, and God puts an end to these with the flood.

2 Cor 11:2-3

2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

The context here is spiritual. Just as the serpent beguiled Eve about what God said, Paul didn't want the serpent to beguile the Corinthians, and have them follow a false religion. If you demand that the reference to beguiling in the passage be interpreted sexually, then to be consistent, you must also accept that the devil had in mind to seduce and rape each one of the Corinthians. Bizarre...

John 8:44

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Exactly. Jesus is talking spiritually. Not literally. Each of those Pharisees had fathers, they weren't all bastard children of single women who had been seduced by some mysterious snake.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

So where does the bible say its appropriate to use poison?

Poison is not something we should use or do actions that are similar to poison.

32 Their vine comes from the vine of Sodom and from the fields of Gomorrah. Their grapes
are filled with poison, and their clusters with bitterness.
33 Their wine is the venom of serpents, the deadly poison of cobras.
Deut 32

3 They make their tongues as sharp as a serpent's; the poison of vipers is on their lips. Selah
4 Keep me, O LORD, from the hands of the wicked; protect me from men of violence who plan to trip my feet.
5 Proud men have hidden a snare for me; they have spread out the cords of their net and have set traps for me along my path. Selah
Psalm 140

17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."
Mark 16

Miss guided people who want a sign they are true to God, may think by drinking poison, if they
live they show they are with God. This is putting God to the test, which is a sin itself.

16 Do not test the LORD your God as you did at Massah.
Deut 6

 

[garee]

Im not really sure why she says that is she referring to Cain, or to Adam, and why doesnt she say it about Abel. Plus Cain would have been a baby boy, why did she say i have gotten a man..i presume he wasnt fully grown!

Its clear that adam knew eve and then conceived and bare Cain, says right in the Bible, so dont know where people are getting the idea that eve knew the serpent and cain was like the love- child of a serpent-human union.

I believe mankind knew it would take a man to represent sin in the now corrupted flesh as a Son of man .For what the letter of the law could not do seeing it brings death, the spirit of faith demonstrated the pouring out of His unseen spirit on flesh condemning sin in the flesh .

Romans 8:3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

From the way I understand the name Cain means acquired possession. Adam and Eve thinking the first born was link back into a relationship of faith with the Creator. Naming Abel the second, a name that means vanity .They saw the work might not be in their life time.and it would be by faith

 

[Tinkerbell725]

Lanolin already posted the part where Cain came from.

Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

Nothing there about Satan knowing Eve.

3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Do you really think that God would accept an offering from one of Satan's seed? Yet God promised Cain that if he did well, his offering and he would be accepted.

I don't think the Serpent-seed doctrine has any legs.

Note that the passage does not say "because Cain was conceived of the devil", but rather, "because his own works were evil, and Abel's righteous".

Just as Jesus was not born directly from Eve, neither does the devil's seed need to be born directly from her. Christ came some 4000 years later. The nephilim certainly were around before the time of Christ, but the bible speaks clearly that these were the offspring of women and angels, and God puts an end to these with the flood.

The context here is spiritual. Just as the serpent beguiled Eve about what God said, Paul didn't want the serpent to beguile the Corinthians, and have them follow a false religion. If you demand that the reference to beguiling in the passage be interpreted sexually, then to be consistent, you must also accept that the devil had in mind to seduce and rape each one of the Corinthians. Bizarre...

Exactly. Jesus is talking spiritually. Not literally. Each of those Pharisees had fathers, they weren't all bastard children of single women who had been seduced by some mysterious snake.

Nephilims reappeared after the flood. Num 13:33

You can't deny that satan has a physical seed that God has put an enmity with Eve's seed. He is also an angel of light and he can intermingle with human females and produce nephilims. If this happened in the past, there is a chance it could happen again. Who knows, it might be happening in this generation now. What happened in Eden can be spiritual but can also be sexual and physical.

Prov 30:20

20 Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.


Rev 17:1-2


17 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

 

[he-rat_of_the_circus-mice]

Nephilims reappeared after the flood. Num 13:33

You can't deny that satan has a physical seed that God has put an enmity with Eve's seed.

I would argue his spiritual seed certainly is at enmity with Jesus' spiritual seed. With physical seed, I'm not sure. The angels who did this already have been chained in dark dungeons until judgement day, and as the devil is not with them, I don't think he committed this crime yet. I accept your point that as Jesus was physical seed from Eve, so it might follow that there is also a physical seed from the devil.

He is also an angel of light and he can intermingle with human females and produce nephilims. If this happened in the past, there is a chance it could happen again. Who knows, it might be happening in this generation now. What happened in Eden can be spiritual but can also be sexual and physical.

I agree this happened in the past, can happen again, and with the abominations being practiced these days, would not be greatly surprised to learn it is happening now. However, scripture gives us every reason not to believe that Cain was the devil's physical seed.

 

[Tinkerbell725]

I would argue his spiritual seed certainly is at kenmity with Jesus' spiritual seed. With physical seed, I'm not sure. The angels who did this already have been chained in dark dungeons until judgement day, and as the devil is not with them, I don't think he committed this crime yet. I accept your point that as Jesus was physical seed from Eve, so it might follow that there is also a physical seed from the devil.

I agree this happened in the past, can happen again, and with the abominations being practiced these days, would not be greatly surprised to learn it is happening now. However, scripture gives us every reason not to believe that Cain was the devil's physical seed.

If Cain is not the devil's seed, why would prov 30:20 say Eve is an adulterous woman?

 

[he-rat_of_the_circus-mice]

If Cain is not the devil's seed, why would prov 30:20 say Eve is an adulterous woman?

It doesn't. It says "Such is the way of an adulterous woman". Can you highlight the place it mentions Eve?

Prov 30:20 Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.

 

[Tinkerbell725]

It doesn't. It says "Such is the way of an adulterous woman". Can you highlight the place it mentions Eve?

Prov 30:20 Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.

Who else in the Bible who ate something and commited adultery? No one else but Eve, I guess.