Is the Great Commission irrelevant for the church now?

[Guojing]

The great commision gave two commands

1. Go and make disciples.
2. Once you make a disciple. Disciple them.

This mission is just as important today as it was the day Jesus gave the command. One of the great problems in the church today, is they see evangelism, But fail on discipleship

If you truly believe in the GC, that it is a commandment for the church to follow now, don't pick and choose what you want to follow.

-Matthew GC says you have to teach them to obey everything Jesus taught, which includes following the law of Moses.
-Mark GC says you have to teach that belief AND water baptism are required for salvation.
-John GC says you have the power to forgive sins.
-Luke and Acts GC says you have to start FROM Jerusalem.

The point is that everyone who says "I believe in the GC", does not follow what the GC is actually saying.

 

[CS1]

If you truly believe the gospel that saves is the DBR, that means DBR is sufficient to save you. There was no need to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, the promised Messiah/King, and that long list of titles you listed. Your earlier answer was you need to believe BOTH to be saved. I supposed you are just playing safe here, in mixing the requirements for both GOK and GOG together.

I find that many people find it very difficult to accept that the 12 disciples, during the 4 Gospels and even in Acts, did not understand the significance of the DBR. Thus, if you examine scripture, it makes no sense to say they are preaching the same Gospel as Paul preached. From, the way you are combining both GOK and GOG together, it is clear you do not accept this too. As I have said, that is fine, we can agree to disagree.

• Ignorant of Jesus’ Death, burial, and resurrection
  
  
• 1. Matthew 16:21-22 – Jesus first began to tell them of his death and yet Peter tried to prevent it.
• 2. Mark 8:31-32 – Another account of Peter rebuking the Lord for speaking about his death.
• 3. Mark 9:31-32 – After hearing about the death and resurrection of Jesus the disciples “understood not and were afraid to ask him”
• 4. Luke 9:44-45 – “But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.”
• 5. Luke 18:31-34 – “And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.”
• 6. John 2:21-22 – They did not understand the resurrection until after it happened.

• Disbelief in the Resurrection
• 7. Mark 16:5-14 – The ladies were afraid when they found the tomb empty. The disciples did not believe after two witnesses testified of the resurrection.
• 8. Luke 24:1-4 – The ladies were perplexed about what had happened to Jesus.
• 9. Luke 24:8-12 – The stories of Jesus’ “disappearance” were idle tales. Peter wondered what happened.
• 10. John 20:2 – Mary Magdalene thought someone had stolen Jesus after he had resurrected.
• 11. John 20:7-9 – The disciples after seeing the empty tomb believed Mary that someone had stolen Jesus. They did not know about the resurrection yet.

• Did not understand the cross for salvation
• 12. John 20:21-23 – Even after the resurrection, the disciples did not understand what it accomplished. Here they are given the authority to remit sins.
• 13. Acts 3:14-15 – The crucifixion was presented as a murder indictment to Israel at Pentecost. The resurrection as a warning that he would return to seek vengeance.
• 14. Acts 5:28 – Instead of the blood being payment for sins it was presented as the evidence of guilty murderers.
• 15. Acts 7:52 – Stephen accuses the rulers of betrayal and murder of the Just One.
• 16. Acts 10:39 – According to Paul’s gospel Christ died willingly in the place of sinners. According to Peter he died because he was slain by certain Jews. Could it be that Peter does not yet understand the mystery of the cross?

Conclusions:
This list does not prove that the Twelve were disobedient to the gospel that was presented to them. Contrarily, they were some of the first believers in the gospel of the kingdom. They were among the faithful remnant of Israel who trusted that Jesus was the Son of God and promised Messiah.

However, these verses show that the gospel they knew and trusted was not the preaching of the cross that Paul taught. Whereas they knew Jesus Christ as Messiah to Israel, Paul would later teach Jesus Christ on the cross as payment for sins to Gentiles.
The preaching of the cross was offered for salvation first through the Apostle Paul as the Lord revealed the meaning of the death, burial, and resurrection. The Twelve apostles were ignorant of this message.

"...to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery..." Ephesians 3:9

I do not agree, the need is to believe the full word of God in context to what it says about The Lord in both Old and New Testament we should do and learn. I take issue anybody who starts the sentence with "IF you truly believe". It is rude and arrogant when one interjects that as to suggest one does not truly believe. NO, my earlier answer was not that you needed too but that we are to believe all, not both all. NO, I am not playing it safe. When comes come to the saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, we start to know HIM more from HIS word, Prayer, and Creation. The disciples did not understand the DBR until the Resurrection which John 20:22. They fully knew after that even and were empowered to be a witness Acts 1:8 and Acts 2 You cannot witness to what you do not know.

 

[CS1]

If you truly believe in the GC, that it is a commandment for the church to follow now, don't pick and choose what you want to follow.

-Matthew GC says you have to teach them to obey everything Jesus taught, which includes following the law of Moses.
-Mark GC says you have to teach that belief AND water baptism are required for salvation.
-John GC says you have the power to forgive sins.
-Luke and Acts GC says you have to start FROM Jerusalem.

The point is that everyone who says "I believe in the GC", does not follow what the GC is actually saying.

You are eliciting of the scriptures. And trying to use them in a way to suggest one does not truly believe. You need to stop that. I for one will not take you seriously.

 

[Guojing]

The disciples did not understand the DBR until the Resurrection which John 20:22. They fully knew after that even and were empowered to be a witness Acts 1:8 and Acts 2 You cannot witness to what you do not know.

Acts 2-7 do not show that the 12 and Stephen understood the significance of the DBR. As I have already stated,

• 13. Acts 3:14-15 – The crucifixion was presented as a murder indictment to Israel at Pentecost.
• 14. Acts 5:28 – Instead of the blood being payment for sins it was presented as the evidence of guilty murderers.
• 15. Acts 7:52 – Stephen accuses the rulers of betrayal and murder of the Just One.
• 16. Acts 10:39 – According to Paul’s gospel Christ died willingly in the place of sinners. According to Peter he died because he was slain by certain Jews.

You are reading into the Bible. Peter and Stephen used the DBR to prove that Jesus is the promised Messiah and Son of God, which is still the gospel of the Kingdom.

 

[Nehemiah6]

16. Acts 10:39 – According to Paul’s gospel Christ died willingly in the place of sinners. According to Peter he died because he was slain by certain Jews.

Both things are equally true and there is no conflict between Peter and Paul.

God predetermined the sacrifice and death of Christ as the Lamb of God from BEFORE the foundation of the world. He also knew in advance as to how it would come about. No one compelled the Jews (particularly their religious leaders) to become enemies of Christ. They willing and voluntarily chose to hate Him and plot His death,

 

[Guojing]

Both things are equally true and there is no conflict between Peter and Paul.

God predetermined the sacrifice and death of Christ as the Lamb of God from BEFORE the foundation of the world. He also knew in advance as to how it would come about. No one compelled the Jews (particularly their religious leaders) to become enemies of Christ. They willing and voluntarily chose to hate Him and plot His death,

Yes, I am not saying there is a conflict. Clearly, under the Gospel of grace, the cross is something to be celebrated, to boast about. Paul wrote numerous times in his letters to the Gentile Church

Romans 3:25 (NLT) For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past

1 Corinthians 1:18 New Living Translation (NLT) 18 The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God.

Galatians 6:4 New Living Translation (NLT) As for me, may I never boast about anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:20 (NASB) and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Colossians 2:14 (NIRV) He wiped out the written Law with its rules. The Law was against us. It opposed us. He took it away and nailed it to the cross.

However, I am saying that Peter was not preaching the same gospel of grace as the Apostle Paul did. As an example, I can imagine if Peter did preach the same message about the cross as Paul did, and if he did mentioned Colossians 2:14. his Jewish listeners would very likely stone him on the spot, given how zealous they are for the law. ( Acts 21:20)

But he didn't have to preach that since Galatians 2 clearly stated

7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles

9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

In the Gospel of the Kingdom, which is for the circumcised Jews, there is no need for them to believe that Jesus died for their sins and rose again as a sign that they are now justified in the eyes of God.

All they need to do is to acknowledge that Jesus is the promised Messiah and King sent to them. As the Gospel of John concluded in ch 20, remember he was one of the 3 apostles who agreed to confine their ministry to only the Jews,

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

[PS]

If you truly believe the gospel that saves is the DBR, that means DBR is sufficient to save you. There was no need to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, the promised Messiah/King, and that long list of titles you listed. Your earlier answer was you need to believe BOTH to be saved. I supposed you are just playing safe here, in mixing the requirements for both GOK and GOG together.

I find that many people find it very difficult to accept that the 12 disciples, during the 4 Gospels and even in Acts, did not understand the significance of the DBR. Thus, if you examine scripture, it makes no sense to say they are preaching the same Gospel as Paul preached. From, the way you are combining both GOK and GOG together, it is clear you do not accept this too. As I have said, that is fine, we can agree to disagree.

• Ignorant of Jesus’ Death, burial, and resurrection
  
  
• 1. Matthew 16:21-22 – Jesus first began to tell them of his death and yet Peter tried to prevent it.
• 2. Mark 8:31-32 – Another account of Peter rebuking the Lord for speaking about his death.
• 3. Mark 9:31-32 – After hearing about the death and resurrection of Jesus the disciples “understood not and were afraid to ask him”
• 4. Luke 9:44-45 – “But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.”
• 5. Luke 18:31-34 – “And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.”
• 6. John 2:21-22 – They did not understand the resurrection until after it happened.

• Disbelief in the Resurrection
• 7. Mark 16:5-14 – The ladies were afraid when they found the tomb empty. The disciples did not believe after two witnesses testified of the resurrection.
• 8. Luke 24:1-4 – The ladies were perplexed about what had happened to Jesus.
• 9. Luke 24:8-12 – The stories of Jesus’ “disappearance” were idle tales. Peter wondered what happened.
• 10. John 20:2 – Mary Magdalene thought someone had stolen Jesus after he had resurrected.
• 11. John 20:7-9 – The disciples after seeing the empty tomb believed Mary that someone had stolen Jesus. They did not know about the resurrection yet.

• Did not understand the cross for salvation
• 12. John 20:21-23 – Even after the resurrection, the disciples did not understand what it accomplished. Here they are given the authority to remit sins.
• 13. Acts 3:14-15 – The crucifixion was presented as a murder indictment to Israel at Pentecost. The resurrection as a warning that he would return to seek vengeance.
• 14. Acts 5:28 – Instead of the blood being payment for sins it was presented as the evidence of guilty murderers.
• 15. Acts 7:52 – Stephen accuses the rulers of betrayal and murder of the Just One.
• 16. Acts 10:39 – According to Paul’s gospel Christ died willingly in the place of sinners. According to Peter he died because he was slain by certain Jews. Could it be that Peter does not yet understand the mystery of the cross?

Conclusions:
This list does not prove that the Twelve were disobedient to the gospel that was presented to them. Contrarily, they were some of the first believers in the gospel of the kingdom. They were among the faithful remnant of Israel who trusted that Jesus was the Son of God and promised Messiah.

However, these verses show that the gospel they knew and trusted was not the preaching of the cross that Paul taught. Whereas they knew Jesus Christ as Messiah to Israel, Paul would later teach Jesus Christ on the cross as payment for sins to Gentiles.
The preaching of the cross was offered for salvation first through the Apostle Paul as the Lord revealed the meaning of the death, burial, and resurrection. The Twelve apostles were ignorant of this message.

"...to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery..." Ephesians 3:9

.
Act 2:42-47 And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. (43) And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. (44) And all who believed were together and had all things in common. (45) And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. (46) And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, (47) praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.

 

[Guojing]

.
Act 2:42-47 And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. (43) And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. (44) And all who believed were together and had all things in common. (45) And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. (46) And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, (47) praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.

Yes, Acts 2:45 showed that they took seriously Jesus's instructions to "sell all you have and give to those in need". However, not many mainstream churches who preach heavily on the GC will talk much about this.

Luke 18:18-23

Matthew 19:21-23

Luke 12:33

These instructions made sense then because if the Jews had accepted the GOK, the tribulation would have begun immediately, as Peter was urging the Jewish listeners in Acts 2 using Joel

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

But since they rejected the GOK, under the Gospel of Grace, Paul instead instructs us in 1 Tim 5:8

But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

You can see the change in dispensations?

 

[PS]

Yes, Acts 2:45 showed that they took seriously Jesus's instructions to "sell all you have and give to those in need". However, not many mainstream churches who preach heavily on the GC will talk much about this.

Luke 18:18-23

Matthew 19:21-23

Luke 12:33

These instructions made sense then because if the Jews had accepted the GOK, the tribulation would have begun immediately, as Peter was urging the Jewish listeners in Acts 2 using Joel

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

But since they rejected the GOK, under the Gospel of Grace, Paul instead instructs us in 1 Tim 5:8

But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

You can see the change in dispensations?

I see many signs, wonders and and people being saved and praising God.

Because of your particular negative viewpoint that takes away from the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the rejoicing among the thousands of new believers who were being taught by the apostles, I am going to give you a big fat zero.

And all this happened before Paul who persecuted these same Christians. You have it all wrong.

 

[Guojing]

I see many signs, wonders and and people being saved and praising God.

Because of your particular negative viewpoint that takes away from the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the rejoicing among the thousands of new believers, I am going to give you a zero.

I don't understand what you are saying here. The Gospel of the Kingdom was being preached in early Acts, and yes, many Jews accepted Jesus as their Promised Messiah and signs and wonders came, along with rejoicing.

Thus I agree with you. But are you saying we should still continue to preach that Gospel now? The Jews as a nation have rejected the GOK. For the present GOG, you are saved apart from your works. Don't tell me you want to be under the Law of Moses, like how all of them were zealous for the law? ( Acts 21:20)

 

[PS]

I don't understand what you are saying here. The Gospel of the Kingdom was being preached in early Acts, and yes, many Jews accepted Jesus as their Promised Messiah and signs and wonders came, along with rejoicing.

Thus I agree with you. But are you saying we should still continue to preach that Gospel now? The Jews as a nation have rejected the GOK. For the present GOG, you are saved apart from your works. Don't tell me you want to be under the Law of Moses, like how all of them were zealous for the law? ( Acts 21:20)

The Law of Moses with it's Jewish customs is ended.

Act 21:20-21 After hearing him, they all praised God. Then they said, "Brother Paul, you can see how many thousands of Jews have become believers, and how devoted they all are to the Law. (21) They have been told that you have been teaching all the Jews who live in Gentile countries to abandon the Law of Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or follow the Jewish customs.

Of course the Gospel needs to be preached in ALL its fullness.

 

[Guojing]

The Law of Moses with it's Jewish customs is ended.

Act 21:20-21 After hearing him, they all praised God. Then they said, "Brother Paul, you can see how many thousands of Jews have become believers, and how devoted they all are to the Law. (21) They have been told that you have been teaching all the Jews who live in Gentile countries to abandon the Law of Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or follow the Jewish customs.

Of course the Gospel needs to be preached in ALL its fullness.

Obviously if you read Acts 21, James and all the church elders in Jerusalem HQ did not accept that the Law of Moses ended for the Jews. If you read on, James is only saying that the Gentile believers are excluded (vs25).

Under the GOK, Jesus commanded his Jewish listeners to follow the Law of Moses, you can read the entire book of Matthew and how the GC found in that book, also made the same point. Don't tell me you want to preach this GOK, in ALL its fullness?

 

[PS]

Obviously if you read Acts 21, James and all the church elders in Jerusalem HQ did not accept that the Law of Moses ended for the Jews. If you read on, James is only saying that the Gentile believers are excluded (vs25).

Under the GOK, Jesus commanded his Jewish listeners to follow the Law of Moses, you can read the entire book of Matthew and how the GC found in that book, also made the same point. Don't tell me you want to preach this GOK, in ALL its fullness?

Act 21:30-31 Confusion spread through the whole city, and the people all ran together, grabbed Paul, and dragged him out of the Temple. At once the Temple doors were closed. (31) The mob was trying to kill Paul, when a report was sent up to the commander of the Roman troops that all of Jerusalem was rioting.

The Law of Moses ended with the rending of the veil. The mob above and their descendents need the Gospel today the same as they did back then.

 

[Guojing]

Act 21:30-31 Confusion spread through the whole city, and the people all ran together, grabbed Paul, and dragged him out of the Temple. At once the Temple doors were closed. (31) The mob was trying to kill Paul, when a report was sent up to the commander of the Roman troops that all of Jerusalem was rioting.

The Law of Moses ended with the rending of the veil. The mob above and their descendents need the Gospel today the same as they did back then.

So you are saying that James at HQ Jerusalem in acts did not get the memo?

 

[PS]

So you are saying that James at HQ Jerusalem in acts did not get the memo?

I don't know what you mean.

 

[preston39]

Some arguments why

1. The term "Great Commission" was never in the Bible, and Bible translators only added that in the heading.
2. Matthew's version, the most popular one, had Jesus instructing them to teach others to follow "everything" he has taught them, which if you read the entire Gospel of Matthew, had instructions which are clearly incompatible with Paul's Gospel. "Sell all you have'. 'do not go into the Gentiles' 'I was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel', 'Follow what the Pharisees instruct you as they sat on Moses's seat' etc.
3. John's version had an instruction that only the Roman Catholic church practiced, 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.” No Protestant church that I know of practice this.
4. Mark's version said you must believe AND be baptized to be saved, safe to say, not many churches follow the latter. Furthermore, no church would tell their Gentile believers to pick up serpents as a sign now.
5. Luke's version say you must start from Jerusalem, obviously from what Paul said in Romans 9-11, that avenue is now closed since the vast majority of the Jews rejected the gospel.

What do the rest of you think?

What is it that folks do not understand about Rev.22, Matt 5, etc.
There can be no effort to change G-d's word or.... actual change in G-d's word.

The efforts to make new new age religion interpretations since the 1960's is well established. The many new new age religion editions of the bible is recorded. All have a negative slant to G-d's traditional vales and His intent.
BE WARE.

 

[Guojing]

I don't know what you mean.

Why did James and all the elders in acts 21 not accept that the law of Moses have ended, if all along, the common belief here is that there is no difference between the gok and the gog?

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Yes, Acts 2:45 showed that they took seriously Jesus's instructions to "sell all you have and give to those in need". However, not many mainstream churches who preach heavily on the GC will talk much about this.

Community living. I used to think the ideal for christian groups would be community living.
Unfortunately it does not work, because people have different views as to what community is and how
ownership works out. Part of being an individual is having ones own space and area you control. And
responsibility and care for this area varies, some who are very dysfunctional and others who are super
tidy.

The easiest way to avoid this is people have a shared space, church, and a private space, their own homes.
In particular times of great change, giving up everything works, but then we work, earn money and accumulate
the possessions all over again. And it is these possessions and needs that drive the whole of society, so it
is not about disowning things, but changing ones attitude to stewardship and use, rather than exclusivity and
control.

We need the great commission, to focus our calling is dynamic and about change, sowing seeds, growing, giving,
being.

 

[PS]

Why did James and all the elders in acts 21 not accept that the law of Moses have ended, if all along, the common belief here is that there is no difference between the gok and the gog?

Paul explains in 1Co 9:20-21

While working with the Jews, I live like a Jew in order to win them; and even though I myself am not subject to the Law of Moses, I live as though I were when working with those who are, in order to win them. (21) In the same way, when working with Gentiles, I live like a Gentile, outside the Jewish Law, in order to win Gentiles. This does not mean that I don't obey God's law; I am really under Christ's law.

 

[Guojing]

Paul explains in 1Co 9:20-21

While working with the Jews, I live like a Jew in order to win them; and even though I myself am not subject to the Law of Moses, I live as though I were when working with those who are, in order to win them. (21) In the same way, when working with Gentiles, I live like a Gentile, outside the Jewish Law, in order to win Gentiles. This does not mean that I don't obey God's law; I am really under Christ's law.

Why are you giving me Paul’s response when I was asking you about James? You are explaining why Paul agreed to their suggestion to pay for the Jewish ceremony for the Jews who are shaving their heads and also to join in.

Do you not understand my question?