Who understands and can explain the meaning of Romans 9:3-4?

[amikamisrael]

dear friend. are you a black hebrew israelite? GMS? or british israelism? i am not asking in spite, but to learn where you stand, friend.

I tell you the truth: Paul himself was a Hebrew Israelite. So am I. For as it is written in 2 Corinthians 11:22

Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.

We are not black

 

[amikamisrael]

I stand before the Lord. For as Elijah have stated in 1 Kings 18:15

And Elijah said, As the LORD of hosts liveth, before whom I stand, I will surely shew myself unto him to day.

 

[Melach]

I tell you the truth: Paul himself was a Hebrew Israelite. So am I. For as it is written in 2 Corinthians 11:22



We are not black

i see the terminology has changed. well, are you HEBREW israelites then. the whole "real israelites" are the haitians and things like that? GMS; IUIC? all those are just evil racist hategroups.

 

[posthuman]

Make no mistake about it, the consensus doctrine of other nations will be destroyed very soon.

Hello again...
Is this in your Bible?


Revelation 7:9
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands


Thanks

 

[Nehemiah6]

Not all Jews rejected their Messiah..........

A minority of Jews became believers, but the majority of Jews throughout the Roman empire rejected Christ. As a result Judgment came upon Israel, followed by spiritual blindness. But after the Second Coming of Christ a very large number of Jews will be saved, but still only one-third of all Jews worldwide. However, the Gospel is to be preached to them today, and all men -- Jews and Gentiles -- must obey the Gospel in order to be saved during the Church Age.

 

[memyselfi]

The entire Acts book explained one major theme "The Jews rejected Jesus Christ as their messiah". Thus God's plan for the Jews are set aside for the current dispensation of Grace to the Gentiles.

Is it over than since we are getting saved by the thousands and over 100,000,000 of us are saved now... including me?

What do you think, according to you, your gentile time is up!?!

 

[Guojing]

Is it over than since we are getting saved by the thousands and over 100,000,000 of us are saved now... including me?

What do you think, according to you, your gentile time is up!?!

As I have stated, only God the Father knows. Many people have tried to predict it in the past but so far God is remarkably patient 2 Peter 3:9.

I believe even Paul predicted that the rapture would happen in his life time, but even he was proven wrong. 1 Corinthians 15:51

 

[PS]

Such is Paul's desire to bring his fellow Jews into the kingdom of heaven, he would do anything for that to happen.

His sadness is that he cannot.

But goodness me, how he tried.

 

[Waggles]

even Stephen did not have any better success at converting them …
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet,
whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Acts 7:

 

[PS]

even Stephen did not have any better success at converting them …
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet,
whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Acts 7:

.
That is true, and they were fine men of God as were many more.

Thinking about them and indeed all men of God, what do we see?

We see living examples of people whose faith is followed by works.

 

[SimpleGardner]

in the NT what is translated as "gentiles" is the word "ethnos" which literally means "nations"

"Jew" is sometimes used to denote the southern kingdom: Judah and Benjamin -- some people include Levi also since Levites were living among all the tribes, without allotted land inheritance of their own. "Israelite" in this context denotes being of the northern kingdom.

in Romans 11:1 & also Philippians 3:5, Paul calls himself an Israelite -- specifically of the tribe of Benjamin. this is not using the southern/northern kingdom terminology, but speaking of "Israelite" as all of the 12 ((or 13)) tribes as one. seeing that in the very same chapter of Romans, in vv. 11-13, he makes mention of "gentiles" and pointedly contrasts them with "his own people" in verse 14, it is contradictory to believe that the word "gentile" is meant to refer to the northern kingdom since he uses what would have been 'northern kingdom' terminology, "Israelite" to refer to himself, being of one of the 'southern kingdom' tribes, i.e. 'Jew'.
he is quite obviously using the word gentile to describe non-Hebrews i.e. non-Israelite, non-Jew -- not physically descended from Abraham, but ((see Romans ch. 1- 5)) descendants of Abraham by faith, not necc. by blood.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon​

STRONGS NT 1484: ἔθνος​

​

ἔθνος, ἔθνους, τό:​

1. a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or living together; a company, troop, swarm: ἔθνος ἑταίρων, ἔθνος Ἀχαιων, ἔθνος λαῶν, Homer, Iliad; ἔθνος μελισσαων, 2, 87; μυιαων ἐθνεα, ibid. 469.​

​

2. "a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus (τό ἔθνος τόθῆλυ ἤ ἀρρεν, Xenophon, oec. 7, 26): πᾶν ἔθνος ἀνθρώπων, the human race, Acts 17:26 (but this seems to belong under the next entry).​

​

3. race, nation: Matthew 21:43; Acts 10:35, etc.; ἔθνος ἐπί ἔθνος, Matthew 24:7; Mark 13:8: οἱ ἄρχοντες, οἱ βασιλεῖς τῶν ἐθνῶν, Matthew 20:25; Luke 22:25; used (in the singular) of the Jewish people, Luke 7:5; Luke 23:2; John 11:48, 50-53; John 18:35; Acts 10:22; Acts 24:2 (), ; .​

​

4. (τά ἔθνη, like הַגויִם in the O. T., foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles, (cf. Trench, § xcviii.): Matthew 4:15(Γαλιλαία τῶν ἐθνῶν), ; (3 John 1:7 R G; cf. Revelation 15:3 G L T TrWH marginal reading after John 10:7), and very often; in plain contradistinction to the Jews: Romans 3:29; Romans 9:24; (1 Corinthians 1:23 G L T Tr WH): Galatians 2:8, etc.; ὁ λαός (τοῦ Θεοῦ, Jews) καί τά ἔθνη, Luke 2:32; Acts 26:17, 23; Romans 15:10.​

​

5. Paul uses τά ἔθνη even of Gentile Christians: Romans 11:13; Romans 15:27; Romans 16:4; Galatians 2:12 (opposite Galatians 2:13to οἱ Ἰουδαῖοι, i. e. Jewish Christians), Galatians 2:14; Ephesians 3:1, cf. Ephesians 4:17 (Winers Grammar, § 59, 4 a.; Buttmann, 130 (114)).​

Greetings posthuman,

You speak well on the subject. There will no doubt be contention on this very topic until Yahshua Himself clarifies the details for us all. Until then we must study and remain open to the truth.

Again your argument is strong, but I would like to offer an observation. As you have articulated; after Solomon's death and The "Kingdom of Israel" was divided and the 10/11 tribes followed Jeroboam North into Samaria the once single kingdom of Israel became two divided kingdoms essentially a "birthright" kingdom and a "scepter" kingdom. To Joseph went the birthright and the title "Israel" hence the title "The Kingdom of Israel" followed them since the tribe of Joseph or Ephriam and Manassah went North. But, and this is my contention; the term "Israelite" became synonymous with a descendant of Israel/Jacob. Paul is speaking in terms of pedigree here not "national" identity. I believe it is an error to say that Paul is inferring here by the use of the term "Israelite" that it should be considered an delineation from Gentile. Gentile being a national identifier.

Remember that Judah had Canaanite children that followed him into Egypt and were numbered among the Israelites coming out of Egypt.
Numbers 26:20 KJV And the sons of Judah after their families were; of Shelah, the family of the Shelanites: of Pharez, the family of the Pharzites: of Zerah, the family of the Zarhites.

These "sons of Judah" were not all "Israelites" in the truest sense. Perhaps this one of the reasons Paul said what he did in Roman 9:6.

I will finish here.

 

[MattforJesus]

This is the correct understanding of Romans 3:4:

The honor given by God to be his chosen people belong to the Israelites.

The presence of God as manifest through the ark and the temple belongs to the Israelites.

The covenants of God belong to the Israelites

The laws of God were given to the Israelites because they belong to the Israelites.

The service of God through the keeping his laws, statutes, and commandments belong to the Israelites

The promises (Salvation, Repentance, and Forgiveness of Sins, and Kingdom of Heaven) belong to the Israelites.

Paul is emphasizing that all these things belong to Israel not any other nation.

That is true for Old and New Testaments were given to Israel, and Jesus said salvation is of the Jews.

That is why when a Gentile is saved they become a Jew inward, and part of the commonwealth of Israel.

That is why God allowed a Moabite woman, Ruth, to mingle her blood in with the tribe of Judah, for Jesus was from the tribe of Judah, and took over the throne of David, so salvation could also be for the Gentiles.

And why God allowed 12,000 of the tribe of Manasseh, which is half Jewish, and half Gentile, to be included with the 144,000 that were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb, so the Gentile saints could rule along with the Jews in the millennial reign of Christ, when the kingdom is restored to the nation of Israel, and be in the New Jerusalem that is the final destination of the saints.

 

[MattforJesus]

The entire Acts book explained one major theme "The Jews rejected Jesus Christ as their messiah". Thus God's plan for the Jews are set aside for the current dispensation of Grace to the Gentiles.

God's plan is not set aside for the Jews in the sense of spiritual salvation.

But Israel as a nation lost the kingdom on earth temporarily for rejecting Christ, but God will restore the kingdom on earth back to the nation of Israel in the future in the millennial reign of Christ.

For many Jews accepted Jesus, and some Jews accept Jesus today, but the New Testament is not complete concerning the nation of Israel being in the truth concerning the New Testament, like they were in the truth as a nation concerning the Old Testament.

But God will turn the nation of Israel to the truth in the future.

But that might be what you meant to say.

 

[Guojing]

God's plan is not set aside for the Jews in the sense of spiritual salvation.

But Israel as a nation lost the kingdom on earth temporarily for rejecting Christ, but God will restore the kingdom on earth back to the nation of Israel in the future in the millennial reign of Christ.

For many Jews accepted Jesus, and some Jews accept Jesus today, but the New Testament is not complete concerning the nation of Israel being in the truth concerning the New Testament, like they were in the truth as a nation concerning the Old Testament.

But God will turn the nation of Israel to the truth in the future.

But that might be what you meant to say.

Yes, set aside does not mean abandon. The mystery of the rapture that was only revealed to Paul explained that, once the church is raptured to be with the Lord, he will return for the Jews once again

 

[posthuman]

The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought Him
(Mark 7:26)​

 

[posthuman]

Greetings posthuman,

You speak well on the subject. There will no doubt be contention on this very topic until Yahshua Himself clarifies the details for us all. Until then we must study and remain open to the truth.

Again your argument is strong, but I would like to offer an observation. As you have articulated; after Solomon's death and The "Kingdom of Israel" was divided and the 10/11 tribes followed Jeroboam North into Samaria the once single kingdom of Israel became two divided kingdoms essentially a "birthright" kingdom and a "scepter" kingdom. To Joseph went the birthright and the title "Israel" hence the title "The Kingdom of Israel" followed them since the tribe of Joseph or Ephriam and Manassah went North. But, and this is my contention; the term "Israelite" became synonymous with a descendant of Israel/Jacob. Paul is speaking in terms of pedigree here not "national" identity. I believe it is an error to say that Paul is inferring here by the use of the term "Israelite" that it should be considered an delineation from Gentile. Gentile being a national identifier.

Remember that Judah had Canaanite children that followed him into Egypt and were numbered among the Israelites coming out of Egypt.
Numbers 26:20 KJV And the sons of Judah after their families were; of Shelah, the family of the Shelanites: of Pharez, the family of the Pharzites: of Zerah, the family of the Zarhites.

These "sons of Judah" were not all "Israelites" in the truest sense. Perhaps this one of the reasons Paul said what he did in Roman 9:6.

I will finish here.

greets;

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people​

(Revelation 14:6) ​

​

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation ​

(Revelation 5:9)​

​

He said unto them, ​

Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. ​

(Mark 16:15) ​

​

​

cheers

 

[SimpleGardner]

greets;

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people​

(Revelation 14:6) ​

​

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation ​

(Revelation 5:9)​

​

He said unto them, ​

Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. ​

(Mark 16:15) ​

​

​

cheers

I have no question that God has good intentions for every creature that repents from sin. Interpreting the significance and specificity of His intentions is important. Man, myself included, may have a spirit of mercy and grace towards each other and have a desire to see each and every creature given opportunities to relate to God in any way they chose (righteousness presumed), but the scripture simply does not bear this out. God choses who He wills for each office He designates.

One has the promise of "Redemption" the other "Deliverance from the bondage to corruption" . These are two different destinies.

Is it logical to think that something that is to be "redeemed" must have once been a possession? Did not God declare in Amos 3:2 that He had never known any other family/nation/race of the earth but those of Israel?

Truly posthuman, I am always ready to abandon any error, and I recognize your knowledge of the scripture, but I still cannot universally apply all NT promises to all man. Close study for me still shows delineations intended to edify and sanctify.

When I look at a verse like the first one you gave:

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people​

(Revelation 14:6) ​

​

My mind is awash with OT history where God said he would sift Israel into the "Nations":​

​

Amos 9:9 KJV For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.


But He also said He would fetch or redeem them out of these nations which have different tongues which they would integrate into over the centuries.

It was Jesus who came for them! You know His words; "I am come only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel"

Why not the House of Judah? Because He was still married to Judah, still in covenant with them, but He had divorced The house of Israel. BUT and this is a BIG BUT! His own laws prevented Him from remarrying The lost sheep of the house of Israel! Deut 24 So how would this be possible? Well that is the Gospel. The lost sheep of the House of Israel knew this law and were convinced that they would never NEVER have another opportunity to covenant/remarry God so they put their memories of Zion and their once cherished Love with God in the back of their collective minds and faded away into the nations they were sifted into, but God never forgot them!

Ezekiel 37:26-28 NIV I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. (27) My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. (28) Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.'"

How could God who had a strict law that no man may remarry a wife who had during the time of their divorce had another man? This answer to this is carried in the words of Jesus "I have come only for the lost sheep of the House of Israel"!

God is a divorcee...He did give The House of Israel a writ of divorcement and send her out of his house!
Jeremiah 3:8 NIV I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery.

Israel did have other Gods and so were ineligible for remarriage, but then there was the Cross! Their Creator/King/ex-husband was to be killed to regain them!

 

[posthuman]

One has the promise of "Redemption" the other "Deliverance from the bondage to corruption" . These are two different destinies.

Who do you imagine is delivered but not redeemed?

 

[SimpleGardner]

Who do you imagine is delivered but not redeemed?

Good Morning,

Before I answer your question can we start with the fundamental meaning of the word redeemed? I am typing in a friendly tone in case you are thinking I am being aggressive. If you understand it as to: gain or regain possession of (something) in exchange for payment. Then the next logical question is when did God know possess all the other nations?

 

[posthuman]

But He also said He would fetch or redeem them out of these nations which have different tongues which they would integrate into over the centuries.

He also said He would make Israel jealous by a people who is not a people. In Deuteronomy. Before any separation of the nation, before any captivity.

He also called Egypt His people and Assyria His handiwork.

What do you think, I should get a DNA test, and if I am not semetic, I can just forget about Christ since salvation is according to the descendancy of the flesh?

He has said, the flesh profits nothing. He has said, the children of Abraham are those who are children by faith, not according to flesh. He has said He can raise up children of Abraham out of stones.